Talk:The Divine Comedy

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[edit] Picture overlaps text

I think that says it all. The text is overlapped by one of the illustrations. I've not worked with pictures before, so somebody with more experiance who has a second should take a look. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Xeinart (talk • contribs) 01:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] What is that?

What connection the Divine Comedy has to do with Islam? I'll delete it every time it'll be rewritten. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.115.29.209 (talk • contribs) .

If you read the section, you will find that it does not make the claim that "The Divine Comedy has something to do with Islam." While, obviously, the Commedia does directly deal with some Islamic topics, that is not the subject of this section. In fact, Islamic versions, available to Dante in Latin translations, of fantastic journeys to see paradise and Hell, have been a major and continuing topic of research and discussion among Dantisti throughout the world. Whether it is right to conclude that Dante was directly inspired by these available sources remains controversial, but it's an important area of scholarly inquiry, and that's why it's in the article. (I didn't put it in there; the extent of my involvement was to add a scholarly footnote giving more accurate information about the date of the Latin version of Liber Scale Machometi.) If you think the topic is relatively unimportant, please address the imbalance by adding quality sections on topics that haven't been treated well enough (I don't know, maybe Aristotelian philosophy in the Commedia?)...
Please, 192.115.29.209, have a look at your talk page, where the complaints of vandalism and arbitrary edits are piling up. At Wikipedia, the answer to issues like this is not to make threats, but, either (A) to discuss it here and develop a consensus for the major alterations you would like to see, or (B) to add information that will make a section more rigorous and balanced (in this case, please feel free to add summary and footnotes to expand on the views of scholars who have argued against the importance of Arabic sources). Even better, take the plunge to register as a Wikipedia editor and familiarize yourself with its ethos and policies. I assure you, you will find that they do make it possible to use reason and scholarship to correct real deficiencies in articles (though the process takes work and time). Wareh 14:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gary Panter's Jimbo in Purgatory

Why was this deleted from the Influence on Visual Arts section?

I know some may find its inclusion dubious, as it may be perceived by those unfamiliar with alternative comics/ the work of Gary Panter’s as a piece of exoterica but nonetheless this publication stands as a lavish Object D'Art as well as a highly conceptualized academic work and is indeed noteworthy and an article on the book itself would encourage much intellectual discourse… it is, in my opinion, very exciting and clever work, one of prime examples of what avant-garde comics are. Panter’s notes to the book provides fresh insight to Dante as an artist, noting that much like Joyce after him, Dante is a ‘synthesist’ creating a “massive superimposition of underlying structure” with his writing (which is what Panter himself attempts with the graphic medium in ‘Jimbo in Purgatory’ with its use of multilayered visual/literary formats )

I was going to get to writing a wiki of the book, but the stub I started was deleted...

[1] [2]

--Counterrestrial 14:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redemptrix? Mediatrix? Dominatrix?

"Beatrice, a redemptrix and mediatrix, [...]"? What do these words mean?

They are feminine forms of "redemptor" and "mediator". Adam Bishop 04:42, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

...but just the faintest bit pretentious... --Wetman 03:40, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spoiler warning...?

I believe the whole divina commedia has been summarized here, even with the lack of details, and this as in all cases demands a Spoiler warning.... with such, those who'd want to know about the story even if they have read it or not (like me, who doesn't remember every aspect of it...) would like to know about the punishments and ambiences of each of the circles of the inferno and purgatorio, and would appreciate very much this extra info, so thanks :). Kreachure 17:04, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Is this a joke? What exactly is being given away? The narrative is secondary to the philosophy, so effectively we're saying 'If you do not want to know that Dante used images of light and the divine rose to portray paradise, please look away now'. Filiocht 09:34, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
Well, the problem is with the idea that anything "in all cases demands" anything, don't you think? But, a Spoiler Warning for the Divine Comedy ("gawrsh, Mickey, how d'ya suppose it all comes out?") is a recipe for bathos. Like a Spoiler Warning for Revelation or Macbeth. --Wetman 03:40, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Or for "Titanic" (She sinks...) Trekphiler 01:05, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
The Divina Commedia is an epic poem, meaning it's a lengthy story, where many, MANY things happen that people shouldn't necessarily know about; if I hadn't read it I wouldn't know exactly what happens, and those things are exactly what I would like not spoiled for me. Not everyone is as lectured as some around here claim to be, and people come here to learn, not to be bashed by people who think they know what everyone who come here should magically know. The poetic, social, religious, and philosophical commentaries are spread all over with fascinating passion, but that doesn't stop it from being a story with interesting characters and situations you'd like to know about for yourself, too. Knowing 'how it ends' doesn't mean you know about everything that led to that.
Do you think John of Patmos should've written, "Yeah, lots of things happen, but all you really need to know is that the it'll be the end of the world."? Please, try to open your minds to actually reading amazing literature like the Revelation and the Commedia, instead of trying to simplify great works of art to what 'popular culture' tells you!
Fun fact: Contrary to pop culture mentality, not everyone in the world is christian/catholic to automatically know what the Revelation even is, or English-speaking to know how Macbeth ends. So please try to be more open to the Human (i.e. not only American) Culture Wikipedia is aimed at. Wikipedia exists to bring knowledge to everyone, so saying that works of art like these aren't worth reading (or in other words they aren't 'spoilable') 'because we know the ending' is totally contrary to giving knowledge.
P.S. Two years after I talked about it, and who knows for how long since then, there is indeed a spoiler warning. So I guess I can be at peace knowing people do want others to read it and discover its wholesome greatness by themselves. Kreachure 00:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Beatrice, woman or City?

I wikified the mention of Beatrice in the article and I found out on following the link that it links to a city and not to the ideal woman as the article mentions. How to organise this better? Kartheeque 11:33, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Virgil was sent to Dante from Beatrice... Arizona... --Wetman 03:40, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dante's Inferno

Dante's Inferno is the title of several movies and other works. It is currently a redirect here, to The Divine Comedy, but I think it should be turned into a disambiguation page that includes a link here. -Willmcw 11:04, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Goodness gracious! The disambiguation page should be Dante's Inferno (disambiguation). Dante's Inferno should lead the poor Wikipedia reader here. Anything else exposes us to snickering. What is the reader looking for in entering "Dante's Inferno"? a topless highway restaurant outside Elko, Nevada? --Wetman 03:40, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Illustrations

If the Gustave Doré ("Paul Gustave Doré" is a little owlish) illustrations were identified as to which Canto they illustrate, this stewpot of an entry could be more handsomely formatted. There's a Dover edition someone might have access to... --Wetman 03:40, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Gutenberg has a set of illustrated volumes, the complete file is 35 Mb, but here are links to selected volumes.
Cantos 1-2
Cantos 3-4
Cantos 23-28
Cantos 32-34
Get a full index by searching for Dante Alighieri at http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/search -Wikibob | Talk 21:34, 2005 Mar 6 (UTC)

[edit] Devil May Cry

I added this section from here. I wrote it myself, so copyright isn't an issue. I hope you guys like it and consider it worthy of staying here. Anyone who has played Devil May Cry 1 and 3, and read The Divine Comedy can clearly see the similarities. I think this section fits the article since it's kind of interesting trivia.
EliasAlucard|Talk 09:22, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Response and criticism

In my opinion pretty much everything after the first paragraph under Response and criticism should appear under Derivative Works. Maybe Derivative Works should be made a subheader under Response and criticism. Unless somebody objects I will change it that way. Conrad Leviston 13:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'd hate for Response and criticism to be turned into a big list like Derivative Works is now. (Big lists seem to look better at the ends of articles.) I'd say: Keep the first three paragraphs of Response and criticism and add the rest (the part composed of a big list) to Derivative Works. --Instant Classic 01:37, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with instant classic. Well, partly at least. I don't want derivative works to be a subsection of response and criticism. That's all. It should be as it is.
EliasAlucard|Talk 05:57, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
The substantive part of this section then needs to be expanded to cover both those periods when Dante's reputation was at low ebbs as well as when he was on a high. I'll try to look up some refs I have at home over the weekend. Filiocht | Blarneyman 08:46, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
Sure, but that doesn't mean it has to be merged with the derivative works part?
EliasAlucard|Talk 10:51, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
I'd be in favour of moving anything that remains a list to Derivative works, but not until the R&C section is rewritten. Filiocht | Blarneyman 09:13, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bullets

I just bulleted the levels of Inferno, Pergatorio and Paradiso. Is this good? Alex Weeks 22:11, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

No complaints, seems like the right thing to do. Stbalbach 22:19, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rhyme Scheme

"The verse scheme used, terza rima, is the hendecasyllable (line of eleven syllables), with the lines composing tercets according to the rhyme scheme ABA BCB CDC . . . YZY Z." This sentence is pretty much incomprehensible to non-poets. WOuld it be possible for someone to re-write this in a clearer way? I'll do some digging and see if I can figure it out, which i doubt I can. 8 July 2005 18:55 (UTC)


There really is no good way to simplify this without sounding like one is writing in a "Dick and Jane" style. The author did a dood job of explaining each item, with the possible exception of "tercet", wich merely means groups of three lines. For the rhyme scheme a simplified (but rather undignified) way of explaining it might be:

...play.
...store.
...day.
...more.
...light.
...score.
...fright.
...close.
...right.
...nose.
...path.
...goes.

etc.

Jim62sch 11:29, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Original copies??

What is exactly meant by original copies? As far as I know there's no original Dante manuscript, not only for the Commedia but also for letters or whatever else. If by original copy is meant Dante's handwriting, then I believe the information is not accurate (to say the least). The manuscript here in Milan at the Biblioteca Trivulziana is dated 1337. Does anybody have more details? If we could have Dante's manuscript .... think of the time spent in endless discussions about a word, an article a rhyme ... --Marco Bonavoglia 12:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

"Original copies" as identified in the article is simply a falsehood. You are right that there is no autograph, so the only meaningful (but misleading sense) would be "earliest copies." However, it is an obvious absurdity to say that "only two earliest copies exist." I'm deleting the nonsense, which I hope won't be reposted without discussion & credible citation. Wareh 13:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Derivative Works

I have to say the list of 'derivative' music is a riot. Absolutely priceless stuff. Various 'tributes' by metal bands get a mention, but the list doesn't even include Franz Liszt's Dante Sonata, which is artistically far above anything mentioned, as is Pyotr Tchaikovsky's Divine Comedy related tone poem to name another. Maybe it is for the better though, it just doesn't seem right to insert such pieces in a list that among other things includes a Milla Jovovich album and a reference to some obscure "Christian metalcore band with hardcore punk influences." The musical sophistication shown by that list is nil. 05:53, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

It would have taken fewer keystrokes to add it yourself than sit on-high and deprecate Wikipedia on the talk page. But then, that seems your real intent. Stbalbach 16:09, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I guess my 'intent' was to deprecate the lack of musical sophistication, however, the point I made is relevant and valid whether you like it or not. Anyone with the slightest degree of musical and cultural sophistication is likely to agree with me. The current list is silly, but I am sure many people would take offence if someone went in and removed all the dross. Therefore I have no intention or desire to start making changes. This is what can happen with an open encyclopedia like Wikipedia. There is no quality control in certain areas because maintaining it is very difficult if not impossible. It is just as impossible to prevent someone from putting out a record called "Divine Comedy (Tribute to Dante)" that consists of farts and burps and two planks of wood loudly slamming together with someone reciting an awfully rhymed gory verse over it in a nasal voice. I'm sure that recording could make its way to the list of derivative works if someone made it and added it. Of course that is an extreme example, but nonetheless you need someone with sophistication and discernment to put a stop to all the madness and bring order into chaos by qualitative decisions. Unfortunately in this case any qualitative judgment would probably be viewed as elitist, snobbish and highbrow by the majority. Sad but true. 21:31, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
The list has only been around 6 months or so and is waiting for an educated editor to add the highbrow pieces. I estimate there are probably thousands if not tens of thousands of cultural works that derive from Divine Comedy. Who is to say which should be included and which should not? Thats the nature of Wikipedia. The list was created because any editor has a right to add to the list. Whats important to some is not to others. Eventually when the list is long enough it will spawn off a new article. Where else will you find a list like this? In 5 or 10 years it may be entirely unique. I think your vision is very narrow, lists like you suggest allready exist. And not to worry, whatever your holding back will get added by someone else in the future. Stbalbach 22:06, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
For my money the list could use some serious paring. Maybe we could agree that there needs to be more than just a passing reference to the DC. There should be some substantial derivation of content from the DC. Good candidates for lopping (IMO) would be the Boondocks Saints movie (one quoted line), Goddard's film trilogy (names of the three parts), Angel TV series (references in a single episode), the movie Clerks, the Betty Ford book, Karl Marx (paraphrase of a single line), American Psycho (another instance of a single quoted line), the Irish band, the Milla Jovovich CD (title), Skinny Puppy (an Inferno illustration as a cover for a CD single?), Nirvana (again, CD cover art), Asaki (apparently only a CD title), and Weezer (incredibly hitting the trifecta, with a single quoted line in hidden text(!) on an album cover). If this level of reference qualified, the list could probably be extended to tens of thousands of items without being comprehensive.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.183.7.157 (talk • contribs) .

People just add them back.. you could remove half the entries, and come back a year later, and there will be twice as many. The "problem" of derivative works is not unique to the DC article. On the other hand the list makes no claim to being comprehensive, and the standard for inclusion is subjective. Probably the best thing is, once it gets long enough (its getting there), move it to its own article to isolate it from the main article. --Stbalbach 03:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I've been mentally toying with the idea of a completely separate wiki for this type of stuff. I find it interesting, but it doesn't belong here. If we had another wikimedia site with this stuff, we could have a template like the one for the dictionary and dump it all out there. John (Jwy) 04:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
It's a great idea. Even better, make it a Wikipedia sister project porposal. Use this article as a poster child. Let me know if you need any help. -- Stbalbach 04:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section on the morality of Dante's Hell?

Is there any literature critiquing Dante's concept of justice? If there is, it could be used in a section discussing the philosophical and moral debates over the concept of eternal punishment.--Rob117 03:46, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The inspiration for The Divine Comedy

I think the article should mention that a possible source of inspiration for Dante was Risalatu'l Ghufran by 10th century arab poet al-Ma'arri. I heard that some scholars have expressed this opinion, but I have no official references. However I have read both works, and while not being a trained scholar my self, I do find the similarities striking.

[edit] Regarding the inspiration

Won't happen. Has been tried 19/06/2006, which resulted in instant deletion since bringing up the issue was regarded as "original research" despite the literature and debate over the source being a hot topic in Dante circles since 1919 when Palacios published "Islam and the Divine Comedy".

You need to provide a balanced account of all sides and not present the 1919 source as the final word. A lot has been said on this topic since 1919, no? Really it's better off in its own article on Palacios with a link to it from here. -- Stbalbach 00:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


Tut tut. What a little squabble we have here. Won't do, my dear Stbalbach. If balance is what we are after then the 1919 book needs a paragraph in this article at the very least. Water under the bridge it may be, but excision is not warranted. Otherwise we don't have that balance do we?

Kneeslasher.


Bravo for the recent edit. I think we can live with that. The Spanish Wikipedia has much more detail on the issue.

Kneeslasher.

[edit] Notes

To this English speaker, it would be nice if the article summarized existing public domain and copyrighted English translations. For instance, is it worth paying for John Ciardi's translation, or is there a pre-1922 gem that captures the depths and heights? (Information on translations would be useful for all works, from Genesis to Homer on up to today.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.252.222.224 (talk • contribs) 08:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC) -213.219.186.213 16:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The following translations are all rhymeless prose unless otherwise indicated.

  • Henry Francis Cary's translation : according to wikipedia's article, appeared in 1814 and went through four editions and was well respected for accuracy.
  • Charles Eliot Norton's translation proofread by James Russell Lowell
    • gutenberg Hell is verseless prose but includes Charles' opinions of contemporary translations: he considered Dr. John Carlyle's excellent, also that of Mr. W. S. Dugdale, Mr. A. J. Butler's of great merit but occassionally "crabbed", Mr. Longfellow's notes and illustrations an admirable commentary.

Some opinions on commercial versions:

  • Back to hell - Nicholas Lezard salutes the first part of Robin Kirkpatrick's edition of Dante's Divine Comedy, Inferno.

-213.219.186.213 16:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd disregard that Lezard review. He writes,

I would not have expected "ahi" as in "Ahi quant'elli era ne l'aspetto fero!" (canto XXI, line 31) to be rendered as "Eek!" Still, Kirkpatrick has written at least three books on Dante already and has probably forgotten more about the poet than I will ever know, so I trust to his judgment.

Err, I thought critics were supposed to be competent to exercise judgment. Lezard is also confused in believing that Mandelbaum is not available in bilingual editions. IMHO it's hard to beat Mandelbaum, but some of the other recent vesions (e.g. by the Hollanders and the Durling-Martinez collaboration) are also excellent. Anyway, Mandelbaum may not be public domain, but it is available for online consultation. Wareh 17:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The repeat paragraph

How are those two paragraphs not repeats? They both talk about the "Neutrals," the Vestibule of Hell, the famous gate, and Charon. Maybe they should be merged into one giant paragraph, but they shouldn't both stay as they are. Thanos6 03:59, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

You are right sorry I didnt read it carefuly enough. Ive done a merge/copyedit, please feel free to improve further, I think it needs it in spots from another perspective. --Stbalbach 04:19, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] First SF writer?

The Divine Comedy is sometimes called the first SF novel. (So is Kepler's posthumous 1634 book Somnum....) Also, check the translation: it's commonly "Abandon all hope"; I believe correctly it's "Abandon hope, all ye"... Trekphiler 01:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

There was no Science Fiction literary genre in the 14th century. It was not a novel but a "comedy". Translations of the "Abandon.." are found in the footnotes, no "correct" translation, only favorite ones. --Stbalbach 04:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
"Abandon all hope" is the correct translation of Lasciate ogne speranza. Qwertyus 17:59, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Outline

Would an outline of Dante's Inferno be helpful? i.e. the circles with punishment, the sin commited, and major people in that circle

[edit] light

Regarding this paragraph:

Paragraph 39 of Deus Caritas Est, the first encyclical written by Pope Benedict XVI, appears to be inspired by the last canto of "Paradise". The encyclical says "Love is the light—and in the end, the only light—that can always illuminate a world grown dim...", reflecting the text of the canto which ends, "the everlasting Light that is God himself, before that Light which at the same time is the love which moves the sun and the other stars".

This sounds like original research. The metaphor of light, and seeing the world as old and growing dimmer, was a common Christian view throughout the middle ages. In fact it was Petrarch who co-opted this Christian vision of the world and turned it on its head to create what was termed the "dark ages". Unless there is factual evidence for the above quote being influenced by Dante its a very loose association. --Stbalbach 15:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

It does look like original research but I have added a reference which says "Benedict XVI says his first encyclical, "Deus Caritas Est," is inspired in part by Dante Alighieri's "Divine Comedy." ". Actually, re-reading the reference again, the statement could be a lot more positive - Benedict himself says that he was inspired by Dante. -- ALoan (Talk) 16:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Great thanks for the Reference, interesting to read in more detail. --Stbalbach 23:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Satan trying to escape?

End of the Inferno: "His six wings beat as if he is trying to escape, but the icy wind that emanates only further ensures his imprisonment as well as all the others in the ring." Is Satan really trying to escape? I didn't get that impression, at least from the translation I read (Mandelbaum) - it seems more like his wings are flapping specifically for the PURPOSE of creating that icy wind. Does someone have a source for this, or at least an explanation? --MarkusRTK 19:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

My Dutch translation states that Lucifer is trapped in the ice as punishment for his disobedience to God, and that his own attempts at escaping (flapping his wings) cause the wind that in fact keeps him down. He punishes both himself and the (other) traitors in this way. Qwertyus 03:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Ice is the metaphorical tool to show that Satan is imprisoned in Hell. And yes, Satan is trying to escape! Wouldn't you?

[edit] Unjustified interpretation of sins

The seventh circle, middle ring includes a bit of exposition on why the prolifigate belong here, finishing with:

Hence, doing violence to one's property is kin to suicide.

It sounds reasonable, but if the article is going to assert that "In Dante's time, it was believed...", there should be some citation for that. In fact, those words seem weasly, and it would be better to write "Influential priests/philosophers of Dante's time taught..." and state what they taught and also state exactly who it was that taught this. AdamRetchless 01:40, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Left & Right: The Way of the Devil

Okay, long ago (late 1990s maybe) there was some movie, maybe called 'Bless the Child,' faintly I remember there was a symbol of a pitchfork with its prongs jutted left, to which one character explained 'was the way of the devil.' Anyway, during the Inferno portion of the story, whenever the direction of Virgil & Dante's movement is mentioned, they always head left (except for once at XVII.32 (before entering the sixth circle), only on those two occasions do they move rightward.) Is there any religious significance between left and right? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.173.64.171 (talk • contribs) 03:20, March 13, 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Does Nero appear in the Inferno, or elsewhere?

I'm trying to expand Nero#Nero in medieval literature, and I have a feeling he must be in the Inferno somewhere, but can't find the reference. neddyseagoonNeddyseagoon 16:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

There's no mention of Nero in the Divine Comedy, although he does rate a passing reference in Dante's Convivio.

[edit] Comedy on Discovery/TLC/History Channel

Long time ago on one of the cable channels they did a show surroundings either the whole Comendy or at least Dante's Inferno. Does anyone remember it?

[edit] Christian/Greek mix

Shouldn't this article mention somewhere that intelectually this work mixes Christian (especially Catholic) theology and ancient Greek "science" and mythology (Aristotelean cosmology, minotaurs, cerberus etc.). These two worldviews are still hugely influential on Western thought and the continued influence of this text undoubtledly contributes towards this.

[edit] Popes

My high school classics teacher always seemed to enjoy commenting on how many popes Dante put in Hell.--Saxophobia 23:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Performing Arts, Digital Arts, etc.

It is very awkward to lump movies and computer games along with purely visual arts like paintings, illustrations and watercolors. Breaking these out into their own categories. Intersofia 02:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hostiensis

Somebody removed Hostiensis from the fourth circle of paradise despite this ref. [3]. Wikisource has "Ostiense". Needs clarifying. Cutler 00:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mark Musa Translation.

I have a copy of Mark Musa's translation of "The Divine Comedy Volume 1: Inferno" (ISBN 0-14-243722-0) and it does not say 'Abandon every hope, all ye who enter here.' It says 'all you who enter here. I changed it to follow this, this is my first alteration to wikipedia I hope it's ok. If there are different versions of the translation then please could someone add this fact.

Thanks. Do you know the date of the translation? That would be helpful too. -- Stbalbach 12:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The Book I have was published in 2003 but the original edition was published in 1971, I assume that was when it was first translated but I can't be sure. I'll have a dig around. Blitzace123 23:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abandon all hope footnote

I noticed someone deleted the footnote. The primary reason for the footnote is to prevent article churn. Before we had the footnote, the quote in the article changed on a weekly basis (if not more often), as each editor changed it to reflect the translation they happened to be reading. This was mostly a problem with anon editors. So by adding the footnote, it stopped the churn problem. It's one of those "Wikipedia literacy" things, Wikipedia is unique from printed material and needs to be approached in a different way to handle group collaboration. The second reason is, it's just interesting. This is the most famous line from the work and it's interesting to see how many different ways it has been translated, it doesn't hurt to have it. I agree that in a traditional printed article, written by a single editor, the footnote would be silly. -- Stbalbach 13:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I was the one who deleted it. Your first reason ("churn") is new to me; I don't agree with it (what possible harm is in occasional changes from "ye" to "you"?), but I certainly won't presume to re-delete the note. Your second reason ("it's interesting"), though, I can't accept as easily. Very many passages from the Commedia would provide fascinating opportunities for translation comparisons (even if this article is already under some strain from its length), but surely you'd agree that this particular line affords about the least interesting scope for comparison imaginable (since the translations are 95% the same)? Wareh 17:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Well the harm is it wastes a lot of peoples time and energy who keep changing it, and it wastes peoples time who keep checking for watchlist changes - rather than have it change all the time with no reason, just document all the permutations one-time and be done with it. It's interesting because the line transcends the book - people who have never even heard of the book have heard of the phrase because its used everywhere, from Bugs Bunny cartoons to Dungeons and Dragons, it is a part of popular culture mythology. Obviously from a literary criticism viewpoint, your right, it is not interesting. -- Stbalbach 01:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
P.S. Just so you don't think I was being brazen, I do admit I should've read this talk page through first. Thought I was tidying uncontroversially. I just could never have believed that this little issue would loom so large for anyone! Wareh 17:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

"Lay down all hope, you that go in by me," was the rather idiosyncratic translation of that line offered by Dorothy Sayers, whose translation was quite notable for a variety of reasons. But, hey, I'm easy to get along with so I won't insist it be included here. --Christofurio 16:37, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Newly Added "Manuscript" Image

I don't like the newly added image, Page_of_The_Divine_Comedy.jpg. Does anyone know anything about its date, place, or origin? An attractive MS page is a good idea, but it should be something as historically appropriate as possible (either one of the oldest MSS, or else something whose significance in the reception of Dante can be stated in the caption). As long as this image so entirely lacks a context (for all I know, it was made in 1965 in California), I think we're better off with nothing. Wareh 18:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Any manuscript is significiant in that it illustrates the wide-spread acceptance of Dante in the days before the printing press. It also illustrates the wide range of time over which Dante has been a major writer, in combination with the other illustrations. Goldfritha 22:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
These aspects would be better served if we had any idea of the date of this MS. As it is, we don't know about the range it indicates, or even whether it's from before or after the printing press. Wareh 00:53, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

I found a gold mine of images in one of the Article's links. Does anyone think we should include all of these Dore images next to the text? I do. Opinions? I mean - just take a look at these fantastic images. http://www.doreillustrations.com/divinecomedy/HELL/images/divinecomedy-hell.html DocEss 17:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

We've got some of them. We've got more in the link to commons. And, in fact, I think this article has if anything too many Dore images. It gives a false impression of his influence to have it so narrowly illustrated. (Which is why I've added other artists' -- it was worse before.) Goldfritha 23:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Agreed too many Dore images - they should be uploaded and linked at Wikicommons (if not already). -- Stbalbach 13:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Ah I see. Well that's sensible I suppose. But I would like to see an image for each circle; that might help illustrate dante's voyage.DocEss 20:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Miguel Asin Y Palacios

Miguel Asin Y Palacios is referred to variously as "Palacios", "Professor Asin", "Asin Palacios". My knowledge of Spanish surname patterns is not quite good enough for me to feel confident about making a change myself, but I'm pretty sure that the name should be one of "Asin" or "Asin Y Palacios"; "Palacios" on its own is, I think, incorrect. Here's a page on spanish surnames.

[edit] Muhammad Edit-War

Okay, maybe the term "edit war" is jumping the gun. But I observe this page, and now I've seen it go back and forth multiple times on whether the presentation of Muhammad in the Commedia belongs in the "Divine Comedy and Islamic Philosophy" section of the article. Let's try to generate some consensus and record here. I think it ought to be easy to adopt a solution that satisfies everyone, and I think this solution probably has three elments:

  • Recognize that the "Divine Comedy and Islamic Philosophy" section is about the scholarly inquiry into whether Dante's many sources included originally Arabic-language texts known to him in Latin or vernacular versions. Once we agree on this, we have a clear criterion for relevance.
  • Recognize that a mere, unadorned description of Muhammad's appearance in Inferno is perfectly appropriate to the article's Inferno summary, but irrelevant to this other section per se. I hope that this recognition will defuse any feelings that may exist out there that an interesting scene in Inferno is being suppressed from the article in any way!
  • Consider the conditions under which the Muhammad scene could be made relevant to the "Islamic Philosophy" section. This is really quite simple if anyone wants to do it. All you have to do is go to one of the numerous scholarly treatments of Dante's possible Arabic sources, find where the scholar weighs the Muhammad scene for any interesting perspective on Dante's readerly encounter with learned Arabic civilization, and voilà, you have a reliable source for a statement of a possible (non-original research) way in which the two topics can be interestingly connected.

In a nutshell, I think the final paragraph (and accompanying image) should be deleted from this section, but I also think that anyone who regrets this in the slightest can have their cake and eat it too: introduce your passage, in a way that is relevant to and will improve the section. Wareh 17:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course, I agree with you %100. See below "Sower of discord" (no pun intended). -- Stbalbach 14:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sower of discord

I've removed (twice) this passage:

In the Inferno section of Dante's trilogy The Divine Comedy, Mohammed is described as being one of the "Sowers of Discord," showing his entrails to Dante and Virgil in the Eighth Circle of Hell

If you want to include a proper explanation of 14th century views and put it into historical context, and have a reason for even bringing it up, that is fine, but just saying that and nothing else is POV. -- Stbalbach 14:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Dante wrote that Mowhummud was included in the Eighth Circle of Hell as a Sower of Discord. It is a matter of reccord that he wrote same. Whether Mohummud truly is a Sower of Discord is wholly irrelevant; the Article is about Dante's Divine Comedy, not Moehamed.DocEss 18:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
A couple of suggestions. First, I'd respectfully ask DocEss to read in full my suggestions above. Perhaps you don't like the form in which the message is reaching you from Stbalbach, but there are other considerations. To my mind, this is not really a POV issue at all. I would agree with you that the sentence you're adding is a statement of fact. The problem is that
  • The fact is already mentioned in a place where it is more appropriate qua fact (the Inferno summary). (If you want to expand that part, I wouldn't see anything wrong with that as long as you remain factual.)
  • The fact is already mentioned in this section ("This was particularly ironic, in light of the fact that in Canto XXVIII of the Inferno Dante consigned the Islamic supreme prophet Muhammad to the eighth circle of hell, as a "seminator di scandalo e di scisma" - a "sower of scandal and schism" - in line with then-current Catholic dogma regarding Islam, as evidenced by the title of the first Latin translation of the Qu'ran: Lex Mahumet pseudoprophete") I disregarded this when I wrote my previous suggestions. Because it's there, I'm deleting the addition as redundant.
  • As a mere fact, the addition is irrelevant to this section. (Again, see my remarks above, "Muhammad Edit-War.") Finding appropriate scholarly opinion about its relevance is a small price to pay if you want this text to be more prominent in this section. Library research, always a great way to improve Wikipedia!
Wareh 19:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Ya got it all wrong: the sentence goes with the picture. I was adding the picture and its description. Man...verbose!DocEss 19:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
That wasn't clear. In that case, move the image to where it would be relevant: beside the appropriate section of the Inferno summary. If it isn't clear to you why there would be more relevant than where you're putting it, then please give some more consideration to what I've said here (admittedly verbosely!). No new article text is needed to add an image, since we already have discussion of Muhammad in the Inferno twice in the article. Wareh 19:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
okee dokee. I think we got her whipped now. Exxxxcellant.DocEss 19:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I can't get the image to work right!DocEss 19:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)Help?
Actually, it looks fine, and is appropriately positioned relative to the others. There's some mild formatting issue that gives "Bolgia 9" two square bullets instead of one for me, but I can't diagnose that. Wareh 02:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I must admit that I'm inept at navigating all the inticate and picky details of formatting in Wiki-world. I give up.DocEss 16:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ptolomea

I have read, specifically in the notes on The Divine Comedy by Ronald L. Martinez and Robert M. Durling, based on the latter's translation, that Ptolomea was more likely named after Ptolemy of Egypt who permitted the killing of Pompey in his house, with Ptolemy from the book of Maccabeas as a second possible option. The book is from 1996, so I don't know if it's a situation of changing scholarly consensus, but I thought I'd at least add the possibility of Ptolemy of Egypt, unless someone objects (perhaps a decision had already been come to here?) Matveiko 20:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links warning

Why did the warning get added to the Links section? Explain, please.DocEss 17:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The user's page says, "I add {{External links}} warnings when there are more than 5 non official links as well." So it's on principle. Obviously, a subject of this importance, on which there is such high-quality online content available that could never go into Wikipedia, needs more than five links. However, let's WP:Assume good faith and take this as an invitation to streamline. For example, we can keep the Italian Dante Society in the "see also" list, and merge the links to that; we can prune dead links and low-quality links; etc. But I am certainly firm that there is a need for numerous links—in fact I'm sure we are missing links to some of the most important and useful content (I had to add Dartmouth Dante Project just in the last month!). Wareh 17:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
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