Talk:The Brothers Karamazov

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In fact, some argue that Alyosha is the sole Karamazov unaffected by the "black streak" that runs in the family, though the opposite case could be made and the same case could even be made for Ivan.

I would say that all of the brothers accept for maybe Smerdyakov have this "black streak" but I would label this "black streak" a type of excessive passion or lust for women. Smerdyakov does not sate his desires which boil over and cause him to murder his father.

Comments?

davidzuccaro 09:23, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This black streak is in all of the children. The Karamazov trait has both good and ill in it, the bad parts is the obession with pleasure and such, while the good parts is the love of life. Smerdyakov seemed to inherent in his father all the negative traits, and didn't received the love of life that is needed. Also he did a have a desire to please Ivan IIRC. ScottM 21:47, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Recent changes 2 Series? 3 arches/arcs quibble 4 Translation 5 Patricide or parricide? 6 Adaptations? 7 Citations 8 Context and background 9 Characters 10 Analysis and themes 11 2006 Miniseries 12 First Editions 13 Laura Bush 14 Who really killed Fyodor?

[edit] Recent changes

To explain the recent changes to this page, you can see my comments within this talk page, made a few months ago. If you object, contact me on my Wikipedia talk page. I'll soon be getting an e-mail address I can share on Wiki.--Cyclone05 17Nov06

[edit] Series?

I've heard on several occasions that the Brothers Karamazov was intended to be the first of a series of three or so novels about centered around Alyosha- his rise and fall, and his redemption through a Raskolinokov-like conversion experience. Not quite sure where to place that fact in the article, but it bears inclusion. I'll look for a source. --Clay Collier 10:49, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] arches/arcs quibble

I've heard of story "arcs" but I'm not sure about the use of "arches" in the opening para. For now I'm switching it over...

Great article... big kudos to everybody on it (and it looks like Jonesboy in particular)...

dvyost 05:53, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Translation

The English translation I read was translated (maybe only revised) by Princess Alexandra Kropotkin. I can’t read Russian to really say whether it was a good translation or not, but it seemed to be a fine translation. —Chris Capoccia 03:45, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Patricide or parricide?

Not sure which word to use here. Patricide is more specific (murder of father, as opposed to murder of kin); on the other hand, Freud's article uses the word parricide. I see from the edit history that this has gone back and forth a few times... what's the consensus? Terry 06:38, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

To me, it seems like using "parricide" is unnecessarily vague and therefore trying to sound unjustifiably intellectual whereas "patricide" is not only specific but also will be less confusing to encounter for most people. Last Crab 18:04, 7 Jun 2005 (EST)

We have patricide, which has a specific and (generally) well known meaning, and we have parricide, which is less specific (and less relavant to this article), as well as being much less well known and more confusing to readers. This strikes me as a no-brainer. →Raul654 22:11, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Patricide is a subset of parricide. It is the case that the son was accused of murdering the father (patricide), not of murdering his mother (matricide) or sibling (fratricide). So patricide seems to be the best word. —Chris Capoccia 23:39, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

In the translation I read, it was called parricide and not patricide. Which word did the author use (in Russian)?--Cyclone05 18:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adaptations?

Not just nothing is said about the first theater adaptation, but no one movie adaptation mentioned as well. Pretty strange for the featured article to have such a gap. Cmapm 00:27, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

Sorry, guys, I'm not good with inline citations (and don't have the time) so if someone can format the notes that way I'm much obliged Silvdraggoj 16:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Context and background

A spoiler warning may be applicable when relating the Ilyinsky story.

In the structure section, please note that it’s hard to have a proper discussion over the semantics of Dostoevsky’s English. He wrote the Russian version, which none of us have likely read.

Also, the confession by Zosima’s friend is absolutely necessary to the plot. When Fetyukovich is telling the jury that pardoning a guilty man will save his soul, it calls the reader’s attention back to that passage in a very blatant way.--Cyclone05 18:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Characters

All names should include the patronym. Calling Smerdyakov “Pavel Fyodorovich Smerdakov” may have been a hint to his lineage, and even in other cases it’s worthwhile to include.

Ivan is more of a nihilist than an atheist. He doesn’t directly reject God; he just doesn’t like God (or Creation in general). He pushes atheistic and amoral principles more to insult others' beliefs (and cause ruckus) than anything, and it’s not really evident that he believes what he says.

Smerdyakov means something along the lines of “Son of the stinking one,” according to Fyodor Pavlovich (in the translation I read), although “Shithead” probably isn’t too far off in terms of the shame Smerdakov felt because of it.

More needs to be added to Grushenka’s section. “Grushenka inspires complete admiration and lust in both Fyodor and Dmitri Karamazov.” She seeks to torment and then deride the two as a wicked amusement, a way to inflict upon others the pain she’s felt at the hands of her ‘former and indisputable one’. As the book progresses, she becomes almost magnanimous.

We are given Katya as a beacon of nobility, generosity, and magnanimity early in the book, and as a stark reminder of everyone’s guilt ‘before all and for all’ as her downfall progresses. By the end of the trial, it’s evident that she’s as base as any of the characters. Even in the epilogue, after she’s confessed to Mitya and agreed to direct his escape, she can’t subdue her pride after Grushenka enters the hospital room.

Zosima wasn’t only included in the novel to refute Ivan. He was included mostly to develop and explain Alyosha’s character. Ivan’s arguments for amoralism are dodgy at best, and are an indication of his character and upbringing. Zosima’s teachings shape the way Alyosha deals with the young boys he meets in the Ilyusha storyline.

Ilyusha’s guilt for killing Zhuchka and his subsequent shunning by Kolya were presented as more likely causes for his sickness than his father’s shame, although that probably played a part.

Please discuss. --Cyclone05 18:58, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I thought I responded to this already. I must have not posted correctly. Anyway, I agree with most of what you've said here, except for Ivan being a nihilist. His belief system is explained in rebellion and the grand inquisitor, and I only think he stops believing in anything once he has gone insane near the book's end. Silvdraggoj 21:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for responding to my criticisms (3 months ago) Silvdraggoj. i did not make changes to Ivan's Grand Inquisitor passage although I have made changes to the main article. If you disagree, please let me know by mentioning the complaints in either this article or my Talk page. Thanks. --Cyclone05 17Nov06

[edit] Analysis and themes

"Each of the brothers played a part in his father's murder:" Alyosha is the one completely virtuous character in the book. He is in no way responsible for his father’s death. Ivan wanted it to happen, but that doesn’t make him a murderer. Mitya threatened again and again to do it, but there was no blood on his hands. The defense attorney even reaches in suggesting that Fyodor Pavlovich killed himself, and that fits well with the novel’s overall theme of common guilt. Dostoevsky clearly portrays both Mitya and Ivan as guilty, and Ivan calls himself a murderer many times. However, Smerdyakov literally murdered Fyodor Pavlovich. He did it in part to gain the means to start a new life, and in part as revenge for being “Smerdyakov”.

The last paragraph of 'Analysis' makes no sense. Smerdyakov killed his master. Ivan, Dmitri, Grushenka, Katya, Fyodor himself, etc., were also guilty (theme: common guilt) for the death. Smerdyakov possesses the 3,000 roubles, and explains clearly every circumstance regarding this money. Dmitri undergoes a profound change through the trial, and we’re led to believe that he’ll lead a more noble life when he escapes to the U.S. with Grusha, thus avoiding his sentence (theme: redemption by being pardoned). We’re further led to believe that, were he to serve his sentence, he would lose any chance to lead a virtuous life—he says he’d murder if he were faced with beatings. --Cyclone05 19:08, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Much has been written about Smerdyakov's role in the novel. I added the final paragraph to the analysis section because many critics feel all four brothers are responsible for the murder. The narrator himself is a subjective, bias presence, and the way he tells events cannot and should not be entirely trusted. Thus, it is impossible to say, for sure, that Smerdyakov killed Fyodor. One possibility is that Ivan acquired the rubles because he killed Fyodor himself, and invented his talks with Smerdyakov in his mind. This may reflect his growing insanity.

It is possible Dmitri killed him and Smerdyakov simply stole the money. My point is, there are many different viewpoints to take, and it may be that Smerdyakov looks the most guilty because that is what the biased narrator thinks. We are indeed "led to believe," as you said, the question is, is that reality?

If you want to make adjustments to the Analysis section, that is fine. I think that anytime we try to add a specific conclusion, though, we should cite a source like an essay that supports it. Otherwise there's no stopping the interpretations. Silvdraggoj 21:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I must disagree with the idea that a theme is redemption through pardon, rather it is more a matter of redemption through SUFFERING. It does not matter that Dmitri did not actually commit the murder, he suffered because of it, and from the authors point of view it was justified that he suffered. It does not matter what circumstances lead to suffering, but rather if you need salvation suffering will envariably catch up with you. Dmitri needed to suffer to attain salvation, thoughts? Justinmcl October 19th 2006

Silvdraggoj, who says critics should interpret The Brothers Karamazov any better than we can? Justinmcl, I believe that Mitya gained character by suffering in spite of his innocence. "Dmitri needed to suffer to attain salvation, thoughts?". That's the point. Guilt for all and before all. The defense attorney's speech was the most beautiful passage I've ever read in English (even though it was written in Russian).

[edit] 2006 Miniseries

According to IMDB, there's going to be a 7 1/2 hour Russian miniseries of the Brothers Karamazov to be completed sometime this fall, directed by Yuri Moroz. It should be mentioned in this article or a disambiguation article once some more information becomes avaliable. I'm not suggesting add it now, but just to bring it to the attention of Wikipedia.--2ltben 00:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First Editions

Within the last few months a second edition of the novel was discovered and handed over to a museum or auction house. The news story indicated that the only edition prior to this one was the first edition he dedicated to his wife valued at $171,000. The second edition was dedicated to Hans Christian Anderson. The story went on to say that Anderson had written to Dostoevsky many times but never heard from him until Dosteovsky sent him a dedicated copy of Brothers. I cannot find the news story in any of my bookmarks but I'm hoping someone out there read the same story and can link to it here. Thanks. Alomas 08:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Laura Bush

Last I checked, Laura Bush's acclaiming the book has been removed twice. I've moved it to the lead, feeling that it further shows the diversity of the book's acclaim. Anyone who feels otherwise should leave their thoughts on the talk page before changing it. Thanks. Silvdraggoj 20:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Response: Laura Bush is not a "literary thinker," and her enthusiasm for the book is irrelevant when discussing its importance among literary thinkers.

I'm not going to start an edit war over this, but I think if we remove Laura Bush for not being a "literary thinker" than we might as well remove benedict XVI and einstein, since they aren't known as literary critics either. Silvdraggoj 20:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

"Response: Laura Bush is not a "literary thinker," and her enthusiasm for the book is irrelevant when discussing its importance among literary thinkers." That's great. And hilarious, too. --Cyclone05

[edit] Who really killed Fyodor?

Article, at present:

It is important to note that no voice of authority explains who truly killed Fyodor. Most of the novel's major characters ultimately feel Smerdyakov killed him, which even Smerdyakov confesses to, but the choice to condemn one brother over another is, again, the reader's decision. (Though Smerdyakov's possession of the three thousand roubles is not otherwise explained.) This may imply that whichever brother actually killed Fyodor is meaningless, and that all must be forgiven if happiness is to exist after the act.

Is this really right? My memory seems to be that it's fairly obvious that Smerdyakov is the one who actually killed him, in a literal sense, although in some other figurative sense it's all the brothers who do it. Or some such. john k 06:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)