Talk:The Book of One Thousand and One Nights

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[edit] older comments

My memory has misled me. The Book of Esther does not say that the king would execute a bride per day. I don't know why I thought so, but I just reread the story (at [[1]]) and I was wrong.

Even if 1000 represents infinity, 1000 + 1 would not be a transfinite number larger than infinity. Although I suppose if "1000 + 1" is taken to mean "The first number after infinity", then it does represent a transfinite number.

"moribund detail"??? - Jmabel 03:49, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

My Burton edition claims that Aladdin is actually from a book called "The Blue Fairy Book", and is included with the rest of the tales just because it is so good. But I don't know anything further - anyone else up on this? Graft 23:39, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No, but the whole text of Andrew Lang (1844-1912) Blue Fairy Book, including the selections from Arabian Nights, is on-line at http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/LanBlue.html Wetman 23:50, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The article of which this is the talk page notes that Aladdin is a late addition to the collection, but not that late: the earliest edition in which it is found predates The Blue Fairy Book by nearly two centuries. For that matter, the Burton edition also predates The Blue Fairy Book, although by an interval closer to two years than two hundred. --Paul A 06:48, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "Shahrastini"

'...better-known in English as "Scheherazade" or "Shahrastini"' (italics mine). Really? I've never heard "Shahrastini" in my life. Unless someone can vouch for a well-known edition that uses this variant, this should be removed. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:42, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] easy reading but not bowdlerized

does there exist a version of English translation such that it is not censored in anyway but with more moden easy-reading style than Sir Burtons? Xah Lee 22:32, 2004 Dec 19 (UTC)

The answer is in the article, "a critical edition based on the 14th century Syrian manuscript in the Bibliotheque Nationale, compiled in Arabic by Muhsin Mahdi and rendered into English by Husain Haddawy, the most accurate and elegant of all to this date." OneGuy 03:59, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! I found it on amazon.com, and will check it out at library if i have a chance. I was reading Burton's version, fully enjoying it, and thought about translating it myself. Btw, if any are interested in Burton's version with interesting words or phrases highlighted as a way of studying English, here it is: http://xahlee.org/p/arabian_nights/an1.html Xah Lee 02:26, 2004 Dec 21 (UTC)

[edit] Violence Against women?

Err, Reading the book now, the amount of violence against women is incredible. One of the first stories, about a man who if he tells his wife the story will die, is resolved when the man decides to beat his wife with a Stick untill she stops nagging him, or dies. She stops nagging him, and they live happily ever after...

WTF!!! --195.7.55.146 15:19, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the book does contains some violence towards women, but there's also plenty dealt out to the men.

You seem to be implying that the book is sexist or misogynist in some way - this is absurd in a book in which women outwit men throughout. Sdrawkcab 17:10, 9 May 2005 (UTC)sdrawkcab

Thats because every second woman happens to be a Witch or a sorceress, it is very misogynist. Just re-reading a piece where a man is seduced by not one, not two but three women with a terrrbile Secret (Aside from that they happen to prostitutes) --Irishpunktom\^talk 13:21, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Accusations of misogyny (and racism) are not absurd at all, and I'd say the misogyny in 1001 Nights is extremely vicious. But does it matter, in the end? It did not detract from my pleasure in reading the book. 201.81.252.13 18:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Iran/Persia

In the historical context of this article, is it really appropriate to link "Persia" to Iran? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:41, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)

Yes. But there isn't an explicit connection to Iran in the present article anyways, more should be added. – Kaveh ^(talk) 12:43, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but why is this appropriate? The use of the name "Iran" in English is entirely to refer to the modern nation-state. Our article Iran is entirely about that modern nation-state. Wouldn't Persian Empire be a more appropriate link? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:22, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

This is a very common misunderstanding. "Iran" is not only the modern nation-state. In fact, "Iran" is completely and exactly the same (and has always been the same) as the "Persian Empire". There has been no significant change to the status of the country or its status of being an empire, the only thing that happened is that Iranians asked the people allover the world to use the same name for this country that has been always used by its people. It is relevant to stress this point in order to prevent the misunderstanding that Iran is a new country merely standing in the same place where the Persian Empire once was (Such as Iraq or Turkey, for example). Iran IS the Persian Empire. In fact, until the 1979 revolution the official name of the country was the Empire of Iran, and the government was called the imperial government of Iran. The king (Shah) had the status of an emperor, which is why he was addressed with the title "Imperial Majesty", and not only Majesty. Even today the essence of the government has to a large extent remained the same. I think it is important to stress these seemingly insignificant but important details.

[edit] The Book of One Thousand and One Nights

The Book of One Thousand and One Nights is an Arabic Literature master piece, which combined Folk Stories from many countries, including persia. It should not be confused with the persian "Hazar Afsanah" (A Thousand Legends), which is apart from the frame-story of Shahrazad totally different!!

So tell us how the name Shahrzad and Shahryar are Arabic. Also tell us how Arabian people had big cities before Islam, they used to live in small town-as Mecca was the biggest city- and in "tribes" so how it could be Arabic if their name is Shahrzad. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.43.81.122 (talk • contribs) 15 Jan 2006.

[edit] Shahrzad

I may be completely wrong, but I don't think it is correct to say that Shahrzad means "born in the city". Considering the alternate ways of pronouncing the word "Shahrazad" or "Scheherazade" it seems that the word is a simplified version of Shahr+Azad or Shahr+Azade, which would mean the libertarian, or liberator (Azade) of the city. Also, "Shahr" in older persian usually means country, or the whole nation, not simply "the city". I think this meaning would also be much more consistent with the role her character has in the story. I'm looking forward to read your opinions about this. (anon 19 July 2005)

I believe that you are correct because the writer put both Shahryar and Shahrzad that both contains shar-which means city- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.43.81.122 (talk • contribs) 15 Jan 2006.

[edit] 1001 nights has Persian roots

The name of the storyteller is Shahrzad which is a pure Persian name. I have heard from some Professors of Persian literature that 1001 nights originates from 1000 Afsane (1000 Legends). It is also noteworthy that the name of the city which many of the stories take place in (Baghdad) is Persian. (anon 8 Aug 2005)

Baghdad was the capital of the Islamic world for a significant time, Baghdad is where the Caliphate ruled from after Damascus, I think you are stretching it a wee bit. --Irishpunktom\^talk 17:37, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

It helps to check Wikipedia itself as to the origins of Baghdad. You will see that there is no "stretching it" and the origins of it is Persian. (Babak October 11, 2005)

[edit] "Medieval"

The article states that the stories are "a piece of medieval Middle-Eastern literature". But then it says that they were compiled in the 9th century. So which is it?

Jonatan 20:15, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Some people consider the Middle Ages to begin after the fall of the Western Roman Empire; by that standard, this would be medieval. The term "Dark Ages" certainly does not apply to Persia, though it would reasonably apply to Europe at this time. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:56, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Abbasid or Arab

Which should it be? the Abbasid Caliph Harun al-Rashid or the Arab Caliph Harun al-Rashid?

Philip Stevens 12:41, 22 October 2005.

How about both? Yuber^(talk) 12:59, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

It is an Arabic and also an Abbasid Caliph. It doesn't matter what you say. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.43.81.122 (talk • contribs) 15 Jan 2006.

[edit] Prince of Persia?

Why is the Prince of Persia linked here, does it have anything to do with the Nights? Philip Stevens 15:28, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] It is Persian

The story is completely Persian because of the names and also it was the Arabic version of 1000 myths or Hezar Afsaneh which was completely Persian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.43.81.122 (talk • contribs) 15 Jan 2006.

Yes I also believe that this is Persian and Arabs want to be unfair to us. Iranians have to prove their identity to the world. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maziar fayaz (talk • contribs) 20 Jan 2006.

[edit] Indian Roots

I just listened to this podcast about the Abbasid Caliphs (MP3), where they claim the origin of the stories is actually India. It is claimed that the stories travelled from India to Persia. 20:40 in the podcast. Jaco plane 20:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I think most scolars agree that it has indian roots, but the majority of the stories were added in two periods in the middle east. The fist bunch of new additions often contained magic and mythological creatures. The other bunch was added in Baghdad and the more urban style made most of the added stories relativley realistic. Then various stories were added and removed. Many of the more ertotic stories are for instance of egyptian origin. // Liftarn

According to most scholars, many if not most of the stories in the Nights have origins in ancient Indian story collections such as the Panchatantra and the Jataka. The others are of Persian and Arabic origin. Overall, I see it as an Persian-Indian-Arabic work. The basic framework, however, is Persian. Afghan Historian 20:22, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

As I wrote a bit down on this page there are three layers. There are also other influences liek Jewish[2] and different versions also contain different stories so they may for inctance include stories from Egypt too. // Liftarn

[edit] Possible Plagiarism: `1001 Nights` is A Mere Translation of the Persian Masterpiece `1000 Myths`

How unfortunate that a story that begins with, “This is a story about a Persian (Iranian) King who lived during the Persian Sassanid dynasty...... ”, and a story whose main characters at the nucleus of the story are ALL Persian, with pure--original Persian names like Shahrzad, is being represented to the world as `Arabian Nights`. It is very much possible that `the Voyages of Sinbad the Sailor` chapters in the book were inspired by some Indian-Chinese mirabilia; however, there is nothing wrong with that, such that the Persian author who penned this masterpiece was simply inspired by them. Wasn’t Shakespeare inspired by some old Jewish, European, and even Oriental folktales? That is what authors do; they get inspired, and then they use their imagination. Yet, what is important to realize is that the written [proof] indicates where the story is from, and it is useless to try and go beyond the physical evidence, i.e. the facts. And, all the evidence proves this was an Old Persian folktale. Nevertheless, 1000 years ago there were no plagiarism, or copyright laws, because if there were, this Persian body of work would have rightly been called, `The Persian Nights`.

About Baghdad: Baghdad is where Babylon used to be, and back then it was a province of the Persian Achaemenid Dynasty, and Ctesiphon in Babylon was the capital of two enormous Persian Empires; namely the Parthian and the Sassanids. Later-on, Arabs move in the area, when the Persian `Sassanid Dynasty` fail. The city Baghdad was designed and built by a Persian Jew--Mushallah, and the name is Persian, meaning, Bagh=garden, and dad or daad=gave. It is mind boggling that over 90 percent of Islamic scientists, tales like 1001 Nights, even architectural designs, poetry, paintings, you name it, were the contribution of Persian poets, scientists etc., yet Arabs take credit for it. Zmmz 04:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

-- "back then" that area was a province of Babylon. Babylon is not Persian. Later Persians moved to the area from the east. It is not suprising to see some "persians" again trying to "own" everything middle-eastern. -Ur

[edit] Verifications?

From Borges, The Garden of Froking Paths:

I remembered too that night which is at the middle of the Thousand and One Nights when Scheherazade (through a magical oversight of the copyist) begins to relate word for word the story of the Thousand and One Nights, establishing the risk of coming once again to the night when she must repeat it, and thus to infinity.

Can anyone verify whether this actually happens? (Or does happen in some well-known erroneous version?) This was one of Borges's fictional works, so it's hard to say whether he's making up his references.

Also, how many stories are there? It isn't exactly 1001, as I understand. How many is it? Or are the interconnections too vague to make an exact count possible? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 136.142.21.64 (talk • contribs) 12 Feb 2006.

[edit] Inline citations

Some of the facts in the article, while plausible, are a little surprising. Would inline citations be practical in this article? Andjam 12:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I recommend cite.php over inline citations, but something like that, sure. - Jmabel | Talk 01:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

One of my first encounters with the book was ascribed to Edgar Allen Poe, yet I see nothing here about him, but I had been under the impression that he had had a hand in at least some western versions of the myths. I have encountered much confusion (including my own) as to the origins of the story---Dragonwlkr 13:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Is this what you are referring to? The Thousand-and-Second Tale of Scheherazade Philip Stevens 13:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Only Translations Available?

I admit I haven't looked as extensively as I should have, but offhand I don't see links to anything that's not a translation. (I am making an assumption that there is an original language for this, in Arabic...or Persian...or something that's not written in the letters I'm typing at the moment. I've seen one site that has a picture of two pages in Arabic script, but that appears to be it.) Given I'm studying Arabic, I would love to find a site that has the stories in the original language (if one exists). And for those who dislike translations as a rule, it would be nice to have easy access to a good untranslated copy. Anyone know where one might exist? Kilyle 22:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arabic WikiSource

http://ar.wikisource.org/wiki/%D8%A3%D9%84%D9%81_%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9_%D9%88%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9

Here you can find the tales in arabic (the original tales) but also if you are studying Arabic I think that the tales text is not easy.

There are many collections of tales in Persian and Arabic, and you'll find many with similarities. But you won't find exactly the set translated by Antoine Galland in the eighteenth century, which we know as The Book of One Thousand and One Nights. --Wetman 06:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is a "literary epic" ?)

No, I'm afraid you're wrong. The correct question was "What is a collection of tales within a framing device." What was your wager? --Wetman 07:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is the Indian name?

Does anyone know the Indian name of 1001 nights? I think it shuld be added along with the Arabic and Persian names.

I don't think it ever was compiled (or it may have been, but it haven't survived), but it was spread westward as oraly transmitted folktales. Some indian compilations include Pañcatantra and Kathāsaritsāgara. The 1001 Nights has several layers and you can see three distinct types of stories. First there is the stories of inidan origin with creatures like djinns (according to some people it may come from Pañcatantra[3]). Then some persian folk tales were added (I don't have my reference handy, but I think this includes stories like Ali Baba and Sinbad). The third major layer was added in Baghdad. This layer contains no or very little supernatural creaturs, magic and such. Examples are the story of the little judge (or was it caliph?). // Liftarn

I don't think Ali Baba was a Persian folk tale (the name is Arabic and was not used in Persia before Islam), and there is no way djinns could have Indian roots! The Jinns (i.e. Genies) are supernatural beings in ancient Arabian Mythology, so they must have Arabian roots.

OK, as I said I don't have my reference book handy, but there are indeed three different layers of stories in the collection. // Liftarn

[edit] Calender

What is a "Calender" ?

I have a (grossly overabridged) version that contains several stories about Three "Calenders" - each blind in one eye who were sons of kings.

Unfortunately, the modern Wikipedia entry under calender is about a machine involved in the paper industry...

[edit] Improving the Article

I think something more should be said about the textual and editorial history of the Nights. For instance, it's my understanding that most modern translations are based on one of five 19th-century editions, refered to by their place of publication: Calcutta I (1814-1818), Bulaq / Cairo I (1835), Calcutta II (1839-1842), Breslau (1824-1843) and Bulaq II. The Burton translation is a free rendering of Calcutta II, and I think Mardras translated Bulaq I. Maybe a seperate section should be added to the article dealing with this kind of information, as well as a list of various translations. Kmbush40 07:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

If you have something solid and citable on this, this would be an excellent addition. - Jmabel | Talk 20:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Burton's translation and the rare book market

Good article. How much would Burton's edition be worth on the rare book market? In 1998 a Lebanese friend of mine, and a lover of rare books, found the complerte set of Burton's rtanslation for sale in Baghdad in the Bookseller's Market (Mutannabi Street), for $200. It had a bookplate from the British Council - in fact the entire library was for sale there on the footpath. PiCo 02:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Apparently nearly US$3000 in very good condition. In general, Abe Books is a great place to answer this sort of question. If it's English-language and on the market at all, there is about an 80% chance of finding it on that one site. - Jmabel | Talk 04:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alasnam

There is an orphan article Alasnam that looks like it should be linked to from this article. I do not have the knowledge of this subject to included it, can someone here do it? Jeepday 14:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The article is badly written and deals with a subject of extremely minor importance (or of extreme unimportance). I don't think it's worth linking. PiCo 05:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks PiCo, I will make appropriate notations on that article. This section can be deleted in a week or so Jeepday 13:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

We generally keep them, and eventually archive them. It might lead someone to give that article some attention. - Jmabel | Talk 03:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Odd inclusion

Why is there a mention of a musical piece called La Noche de las Noches? The title (which means "the night of nights") doesn't suggest any obvious connection. - Jmabel | Talk 02:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

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