Talk:The Bielski Brothers

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[edit] Controversy

I guess it should be about persons, not book(s).

ABout Bielski there are until now mostly two kind of books: praising by Jewish and Western authors, and criticism by Polish right-wing and antisemitic Polish sources. This is because ntuil 1990 the topic of Jewish partisans and behaviour of soviets and communists could not be investiageted and discussed freely in Poland; only recently Polish historians started to investigated the issue, there is investigation by IPN which confirmed the massacres but reduced number of victims etc. Unfortunately, on the internet one may find almost only sites created by Polonia, which has to be filtered from some anti-semitic gibberish and rhetoric. The example for this is here: http://www.naszawitryna.pl/jedwabne_en_127.html It is based on real testimonies and real sources, however added rhetoric make it hard to read. It may be hoped that results of IPN investigation will be then put on some pages by neutral people. To praise the Bielski's as "heroes" and to deny their deeds is strange. They were not perfect people. They were trying to save themselves and people they cared for, but in the same time they were murdering Polish children, woman and man. Szopen 09:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Here is memory of one of females from Koniuchy, written down here: http://www.promemoria.org.pl/arch/2004_13/golgota/golgota.html (In Polish). Szopen 10:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

This is quite good article, even if it's not concentrating on Bielski's, but it describes the situation in the area and gives background for the whole issue: http://www.glaukopis.gross.pl/pdf/artykul-5-4.pdf

In short, from point of view of Polish peasants, Bielski's were simple bandits and robbers Szopen 10:18, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

According to IPN raport, it has been established, that Soviet partisans (including Bielski's people) have killed 128 people in Naliboki, including three woman and one 10-years old child. Partisans burned the church, many houses, robbed the village and left. It must be stressed that according to earlier agreements between Polish and Soviet partisans Naliboki village was domain of Polish self-defense; but soviets do not cared much for such agreements. Szopen 10:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move

I think this article should be moved to Bielski partisans, as surely the main focus of the article should be the group, book(s) are not that notable.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Reading your comment, I found that at present, Bielski partisans redirects back to this article (about the particular book), which I agree is not appropriate to represent this topic, let alone cover it. I haven't found an article on the brothers Bielski in any foreign language Wikipedia I've checked, but I'm able to do library research and create an article stub (or several) on them. I'll work through the Jewish History WikiProject to enlist the advice of and review by other editors. Deborahjay 19:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
that would be great! Just remember to keep the article NPOV - Bielski were not heroes, or maybe - they were heroes from one point of view, but they were bandits from the other... Szopen 06:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your interest and encouragement! I'll bear your caveat in mind, and provide ample factual content. (For my further comments on partisans as heroes vs. bandits, see next section in this discussion page.) Deborahjay 11:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Nature of "Partisans"

As far as NPOV goes, I agree that the terms heroes vs. bandits are subjective assessments -- thus are unlikely if not downright inappropriate language for an encyclopaedia article. Let me add one historical note for perspective's sake: the Bielski brothers' combat unit and camp are considered to be partisans, i.e. engaging in a form of guerilla warfare known for its enmeshed relations and conflicts with the civilian population: beginning with provisioning, and extending to collaboration vs. informers, etc. Deborahjay 11:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, there are "partisans" aaand "partisans". E.g. AK considered its main task to protect local population, while, for example Soviet partisans considered their main task kill off AK and attack Germans not paying attention to civilian losses. The descriptions of Soviet and Jewish partisans found in Polish documents are rather very rarely positive, to say the least. I can translate some quotes if you want to; I don't want to touch the articles anymore myself, because I'm affraid I am too hot-headed for this.
(EDIT: on second thought, I tend to remember that the quote I had specifically on mind was about the Zorin's people; about Bielski's I remember only the notes about their "harem" and robbing local population in order to have food surplus to Moscow).Szopen 12:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, you're right -- I too got confused with the charges against Zorin, an article I just edited recently (copyediting with little to add, but I believe I have material about him around my office...). Shall look into that as well.

And please don't get me started on the AK -- who besides being what I've heard described as the largest armed force of irregulars in WWII Europe (or certainly in Poland), as nationalists, numbered among them quite a few antisemites; if I recall correctly, there were numerous incidents of AK killing Jews who came to join the antifascist partisans, and attacking Jewish partisan units with intent to kill them. How tragic... and so much for the famous quote, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

The issue was touched on by Prof. Yitzhak Arad, a former partisan, in a lecture he gave last Thursday on Operation Barbarossa. He's an inspired historian and a terrific speaker, and I'll see about basing some of my editing here upon his research. Deborahjay 14:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

"...and attacking Jewish partisan units with intent to kill them."
Are you talking about communist units who were under command from Moscow ? If so, they received an order to attack Home Army from Soviet command. Fighting for Soviets who earlier occupied Poland and massacred Polish population certainly didn't make them friends. --Molobo 23:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

No, I referred to the Polish nationalist force, the Armia Krajowa ("Homeland Army") (internal link already provided). -- Deborahjay 04:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

"The issue was touched on by Prof. Yitzhak Arad, a former partisan..."
Soviet partisan ? --Molobo 23:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The internal link (already provided) gives his affiliation.

It might interest you to know that in the same lecture to which I referred above, Prof. Arad told of a recent (postwar; I didn't quite catch the reference) feature article on him published in a Ukrainian nationalist newspaper, entitled "An 'expert' with blood on his hands". Arad, having been an IDF brigadier general along with his academic career, is an obvious target for criticism by detractors. Otherwise, it's well known that Soviet partisan troops in WWII killed many people, including civilians and each other.

As I have yet to take the time to do the library research and gather factual material, with substantiation, regarding the allegations of the AK's killing Jewish partisans and Jews escaping Nazi ghettos who hoped, as antifascists, to be accepted into the ranks of existing partisan units or at least not to be killed by them, I'm only mentioning this on a Discussion page. Having stated my intentions of doing further research, which then can be added to pertinent articles, I won't engage in protracted discussion here. -- Deborahjay 04:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

AK was not "nationalist", it was Polish regular underground army. Though there were tragic incidents reported in which single Jews were killed, vast majority of so called "Jewish victims" which were supposedly killed by "antisemites from AK" were in fact victims in regular war which was started by Soviet partisans, or members of "wild bands" which were liquidated by AK regardless of their nationality (as AK had to take the policy duties and protect civilian populations against Polish, Jewish-Polish and other bands which were ignored by Germans. That many of those members of those bands had in fact no other way to survive than robbing local Polish population is totally different matter. I know from my past discussion with Jews (i presume you are Jewish) that many of them had image of AK as band of wild antisemites (ah, sometimes even all Poles as wild antisemites) whose main purpose was to help Germans, but I assure you the Polish view of them is totally different.
Deborahjay, as I said, this is touchy subject for me. I won't touch the articles, though I will certainly look at what you will do. Hald of my family was expelled from Kresy and survived Soviet occupation, was lucky enough not to be deported to gulags in 1939/41, and then German occupation. When I asked my grandmother, she said Soviet occupation was worse. Anyone who was helping Soviets was seen as traitor by Poles (no matter of true motives of collaborator). Read http://www.glaukopis.gross.pl/pdf/artykul-5-4.pdf about the general situation in the region.
And you have to understand that for me it's hard to believe anyone who was former soviet partisan, that is, from mine point of view, someone who was member of almost criminal organisation.
After all, Markov brigade was involved in war crimes - for example, murdering Polish AK members; i.e. Markov invited Polish AK officers for negotiations on the common attack on neighbouring German garrison, and when Polish officers came (including commander Antoni Burzynski "Kmicic") they were simply murdered (well, not "simply" - "Kmicic" was probably first tortured according to some witnesses), and then soviets surrounded unsupstecting AK unit - 50 of them after interrogations by NKVD was murdered, 70 was forced to join soviet partisans. When most of those escaped, Markov then ordered to execute last 30 AK members which were still in his camp.
And let's finish it at that. Szopen 08:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Objection to allegations of atrocities - comment

[NOTE: The following POV comment has been placed here rather than in the body of the article, as had beeen inserted by an anonymous editor signing as "Peter Duffy", i.e. the book's author] -- Deborahjay 21:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

(The suggestion that the Bielski Brothers committed war crimes is a gross libel. The brothers have never been accused of any such charge in any tribunal during or after the war, and it is an outrage that their posthumous reputations are being tarred with such vicious and ill-founded smears. -- Peter Duffy) -- 12.152.248.4 18:47, June 16, 2006

[edit] This article is about Duffy's book; no longer "factual accuracy disputed"

This article's edit history shows previous versions with extensive contentions, supported by external links, regarding purported activities of the Bielski partisans that are apparently not covered in this book. A series of edits has removed these.

In my most recent edit, I've written a concise, NPOV synopsis about the above allegations "apparently not mentioned in Duffy's book". Anything else belongs in an article about the Bielski partisans, as yet to be written. Be assured that if and when it is, I'll take part in its editing.

As of now, I'm removing the "factual accuracy is disputed" template, as I believe my edit has neutralized that charge as regards this article. -- Deborahjay 21:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

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