Talk:Ten Commandments
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Ten Commandments is a former good article candidate. There are suggestions below for which areas need improvement to satisfy the good article criteria. Once the objections are addressed, the article can be renominated as a good article. If you disagree with the objections, you can seek a review.
Date of review: 17:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC) |
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[edit] Numbering of Commandments
The article currently lists a combined Jewish and protestant numbering of the commandments. However, the typical Jewish understanding has the first "commandment" as "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery." This matches the Hebrew text calling them the ten words, as the first is not a commandment. This is further reflected in the Jewish Encyclopedia article on the Decalogue, to which the article links. The numbering then includes a single command against coveting and a combination of "no other gods" and " no idols." Perhaps important to point out, the masoretic text includes duplicate accents (those used for verse divisions) on several of the lines in the Decalogue. This probably reflects the presence of several numbering traditions when the accents were being added. Of importance to this article is the fact that there is conflict here between the explanation given from Sefer ha-Chinuch and that found in the Jewish Encyclopedia. To change the numbering now in the "Division of the commandments" section will conflict with the similarly named section under Jewish understanding. I believe the numbering I am proposing is more accurate and should be preferred. I am adding it as "Traditional Jewish." Unregistered editor. 10-27-2006
Thats as may be, but the "ten words" sentence is in and CLEARLY ref's to the 10C in Exodus 34, the so called "Ritual 10C", NOT the 10C of this article.
Steve kap 01:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The comment about the ten words was meant to counter the objection that the first commandment does not include an imperative. It was not meant as a ruling on which set of commandments the biblical text is labeling with its use of the term. The edit was done for the sake of consistency with the already cited sources. As I have not edited articles here before, I recognize that my edit could have missed the spirit of wikipedia. My intention, however, was not to violate Wikipedia:Can of Worms. Unregistered Editor who just learned how to sign. 65.79.30.55 14:17, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I don't think you violated anything, and I am the one who is opening the can of worms, you just gave me the excuse. Having said that, I do persist in stating that "the ten words" text, along with the story of the stones, belong with the RTC, according to the written bible. It's there, written. Anyone can read it. Steve kap 06:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] It's Kill not Murder
The biblical reference in the 7th commandment is clearly to "kill" and not "murder" as some have said.
The Hebrew word for kill in Ex 20:13 is ratsach. The word for slay in Ex 32:27 is haraq. There are about 10 words which indicating killing or slaying, and throughout the bible you will find various references to these words that are inside and outside the boundaries of justified murder or killing. There is no credible evidence whatsoever within the bible that the 7th commandment specifically implies "murder". For additional references consult the Hebrew translations of Numbers 35:6-34; verse 27 shows that the term ratsach can be considered a justified killing; Proverbs 22:13 uses the same "kill" translation, ratsach to describe a lion killing a man.
Please stop changing the definitions - the bible itself clearly indicates that the term is more ambiguous than "murder".
- רָצַח means 'to murder'. My source for that claim is the Hebrew language itself. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 01:26, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
whether or not there is a difference in word usage is not important. what is important is whether there is a difference in the implications of either term. As of now, I fail to see the difference between "kill" and "murder", both hold the same implciations. which is something along the lines of "to end someones life against there wishes. Or to prevent someone from living, when, if given the choice, they would have chose to continue living" Or something along those general lines. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.141.163.65 (talk • contribs).
- Anon, you fail to see it, but reliable sources consistently do. ←Humus sapiens ну? 08:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Killing includes all killing, such as the execution of a criminal convicted of a capital offense, and the killing of an enemy soldier by a person fight a defensive war. Both are not considered to be murder either in the bible, or in modern society. I'd explain this further, but honestly, I went through this in much greater detail in an online forum, and I'm really just not up to doing it. It just leads to an absurd fight that could be resolved with a dictionary but for some reason rarely is. --Hrodulf 03:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Every printed English copy of the Bible I've seen has "kill" rather than "murder" -- perhaps this has been changed in more recent printings as suggested elsewhere in this discussion. Nevertheless, this is a major shift in meaning, even if not necessarily a shift in how it has been observed by most religions. This bears mention in the article, preferably a history of the translation and change from "kill" to "murder" and the rationale for it. The current situation, where Wikipedia lists something obviously different than what is in print without explanation or clarification, suggests that this article is being exploited by those who wish to assert their doctrine rather than record settled fact. --Charomina 14:17, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
- I think the King James version says "Thou shalt not kill" whereas the New International Version has it as "You shall not murder". Conservative evangelical types - especially in the US - seem to prefer the latter, possibly because they think it allows them to support wars, capital punishment etc. without seeming to go against the bible. MFlet1 4 December 2006
[edit] Killing
Thou shalt not murder is explained as Killing an innocent human being is a capital sin. There is a very big difference between the two. Thou shalt not murder is a very simple, easy to follow commandment. Adding the word "innocent" makes it a lot more ambiguous. Where where the explanations taken from? Piet 07:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
- Most are from Rashi. This one is so obvious that Rashi doesn't comment on it, but lo laharog naki (not to kill an innocent person) is the phrase used by Sefer ha-Chinnuch, amongst others. The obvious reason is that certain non-innocent people don't fall under the prohibition, e.g. capital criminals, a rodef (i.e. act of self-defense) etc.
- The punishment is by beheading by the sword (hereg), so it is a capital sin. JFW | T@lk 14:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, someone just changed the explanation to "killing ANY human being...", that would seem more just to me. But if this religion thinks killing is ok sometimes I guess we should revert him. Piet 19:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone considering the extraordinarily hard to fathom idea that maybe Judaism is not monolithic on this issue? The article should reflect that there is debate on the interpretation of the prohibition against killing. Almondwine 14:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
- What do you mean, Judaism is not monolithic? We're dealing here (of course) with the classical interpretation of the 10C. Other branches have wildly differing views, not only on the sixth but also the fourth and even the 1st commandment.
- Yet again anons from different IP ranges are removing the "innocent" modifier. Judaism, as I stated above, demands executions of those convicted of a capital sin, and allows killing in self-defense. This approach is summarised by the Sefer ha-Chinnuch as "don't kill an innocent person". I will source it in the article to stop this endless discussion. JFW | T@lk 08:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Clearly that can't be the only caveat, right? For example, when Moses ordered the killing of all male and non-virgins females of the Midians (numbers 31:40), God certainly approved of that, right? He must have, for He punished the people for not doing so originally (31.16)!! Certainly one could NOT argue the ALL of the males that were killed, a new born infant for example, were “guilty” or somehow a threat, true?
And when 32 of the virgins were “offered as a heave offering” (numbers 31:40). What was their crime? What threat did they pose?
Maybe, when God SPOKE these 10 commandments, he meant to say “thou shalt not kill innocents within your community”. Maybe we should write that in for Him.
Steve kap 10:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Christian understanding section
I think the "Christian understanding" section needs a little bit of work. It starts off with "Lutheran and Roman Catholic Christianity", which is mostly about the Catholic interpretation, with a reference to the fact that it is the same division used by Lutherans. Later, we have the "Typical Protestant view" section, which is the "Lutheran Decalogue." Now, the commandments discussed in that section are the same division as the Lutheran/Catholic section, just in a slightly different order. So, it would seem that one of two things need to be done:
- Rename the "Lutheran and Roman Catholic Christianity" section to "Roman Catholic View" since the Lutheran view already has its own section.
- Merge the "Typical Protestant view" section into the "Lutheran and Roman Catholic Christianity" section.
Basically, it appears that we currently have two sections that are covering the same material, without adding much additional value to the article. I would suggest option 2, since the material is essentially the same and merging them will help reduce the overall article length (which I think is currently an issue). Comments? Suggestions? Kylef81 23:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I guess if I had actually read the entire section, I would have seen that the "Typical Protestant view" really was the typical Protestant view, not the Lutheran interpretation/division. The paragraph at the beginning of that section was just out of place, and repeated information from the "Lutheran and Roman Catholic Christianity" section. I went ahead and removed the out of place paragraph and did some other minor editing. Kylef81 20:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I've got a bit of a problem with the beginning of the 2nd paragraph in the History section:
“According to biblical text...God inscribed them into "table of stones".. With "them" clearly referring to the ten commandments of this article, the so called "ethical' ten commandments. While this is true (that the ethical 10C where written in stone) in the popular understand of the bible, in the written "oral tradition" of the bible (this from JW), and in at least 2 Hollywood movies; the TEXT of the bible clearly reveals the so called "ritual" 10c as what is written on the stones. This is a point I've made several times, pointing to chapter and verse, no need to re-hash it. Could it be reworded to ref to the "traditional understanding"? Or, maybe at least have a ref to the controversy (in the "controversy" section)? I've got no problem with the "ethical" 10c being the subject of the article, but when you ref to the TEXT of the bible, I think, the TEXT needs to read just the way that you're saying it reads.
Steve kap 18:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Killing
The source you cited in the article stated nothing on the innocence of man, so I think it best to change the text to reflect “Thou shalt not murder” as - Killing a human being is wrong and should not be done by anyone. The only judge of character can be and should be only God. Runswithspoons 17:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
- Before I deal with your arguments, can you explain which part of the article you are referring to? JFW | T@lk 21:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps there should be some discussion and/or justification of the change from "Thou shalt not kill" to "Thou shalt not murder", which is visible even in the history of this page.
[edit] Political Ramifications
I believe that this article has completely failed to mention the resulting political ramifications of the Ten Commandments. Someone more qualified than me ought to write something about how the Ten Commandments have influenced Judeo-Christian thought, Western politics, Western philosophy, and the constitutions of numerous countries, including the United Sates, England, France, Australia, and many more. Any comments? -Hairchrm 03:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- You find a reliable source and we can do business. Some scholar must have made an inventory. JFW | T@lk 17:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Murder vs kill
Despite ISBN 0-81465-214-X I think ThaddeusFrye (talk • contribs) was wrong to change "murder" to "kill" here. For one thing, the article opens with the NRSV, which clearly employs "murder". Secondly, a closer look at the Hebrew indicates that R-Tz-Ch generally refers to murder in a criminal sense, while the less powerful H-R-G refers to killing (including execution by the court). From all traditional commentaries and legal codes it is clear that this commandment refers to killing ex judicio, while killing in battle, in self-defense etc is sanctioned. JFW | T@lk 17:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
What about kill innocent captives AFTER a battle, is that sanctioned as well? Steve kap 19:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate the explanation, Jfdwoff. Still, the 6th commandment has been translated into English as "murder" for only few decades, having been generally (or always?) been rendered as "kill" before then. The Catholic Church continues to use "kill" rather than murder. Essays such as this one, and reviews of Wilma Bailey's book suggest that R-Tz-Ch is not consistently used as a legal term for murder (see Numbers 35:27-30, for e.g.). I think in any case that for the sake of NPOV the article should indicate that the use of "murder" in English translations of the commandments is a recent innovation, and one not accepted by all contemporary translations and congregations. I think that this question is significant enough that a paragraph representing "both sides" should be included in the article. ThaddeusFrye 07:37, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- As it has been already pointed out, the original makes the distiction. Why would someone insist on using a mistranslation? ←Humus sapiens ну? 04:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] High Profile of Swedenborgianism aka The New Church
As a casual reader I wonder why Swedenborgiansism gets such a high profile in this article. Surely it's not a very high profile religion? Ferg2k 01:10, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
