Talk:Temple Grandin

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I have ordered Grandin's Autobiography Emergence. When I have finished it, I will ad to this article. I'll also write to her and get her permission to post a pic. (or edit the article herself) Danlovejoy 18:53, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Asperger's Syndrome 2 Relevance of Bill Gates' informal ASD dx 3 POV comment 4 Edits 9 April 2006

[edit] Asperger's Syndrome

I removed the bit from the first paragraph saying Grandin "has Asperger's Syndrome autism". Though Grandin has written about pervasive developmental disorders in general, I haven't been able to find any mention of her having Asperger's as opposed to autism. Squidwina 15:14, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree. According to Autism#Asperger's_and_Kanner's_syndrome, the most significant difference between Asperger's syndrome and autism is that those with Asperger's syndrome show no signs of abnormality before the age of three. But Grandin was already diagnosed with "brain damage" at the age of two. --ErikStewart 15:05, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Relevance of Bill Gates' informal ASD dx

Apologies for not providing a citation for comparison between Temple Grandin and Bill Gates, as evidence pointing to his apparent Asperger's is 'common knowledge' on the net. Google lists 891 hits for the search "Bill Gates" asperger's and 15,600 for "Bill Gates" autism, though many probably relate to the ASD clusters in high tech enclaves. Grandin herself is well aware of Gates' condition, having written the following: "It is also likely that Bill Gates has many Asperger's traits. An article in Time Magazine compared me to Mr. Gates. For example, we both rock. I have seen video tapes of Bill Gates rocking on television. Articles in business magazines describe his incredible memory as a young child."[1] Ombudsman 19:59, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

I think the Bill Gates reference should be removed from this article, since he has never been clinically diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. Rather he's been diagnosed from a distance by people either viewing public appearances of Gates or childhood reports of him, both of which can be very misleading. --ErikStewart 01:37, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

When this first was added to the page, I checked the Bill Gates page for any mention of Asperger's or autism, and found none there. If this is a correct/supportable fact, it should certainly be on his own page as well, not just a reference here. --Lucien 00:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

While Grandin's great accomplishments as an inventor and advocate for humane livestock treatment are quite noteworthy in and of themselves, they are especially so in relation to the positive aspects of her condition. While not everyone might consider any comparison to Gates a compliment, the fact is that her accomplishments as an autistic define her as a pioneer in the autism community and should be placed in a fitting perspective, thus the comparison is merited. Ombudsman 02:08, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's not a matter of whether the comparison is a compliment, it's a matter that this is not a clinical (or otherwise thorough) diagnosis. Bill Gates has also been diagnosed from a distance of having ADD [2], and probably other mental conditions. At the same time Albert Einstein, Thomas Jefferson and Nikola Tesla have all been diagnosed (non-clinically) with Asperger's syndrome [3]. People love to guess about what makes celebrities tick, and in some (or maybe even all) of these cases they may be correct, but I don't feel we should consider them reliable enough diagnoses for entry into an encyclopedia. --ErikStewart 14:49, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Placing the magnitude of Grandin's accomplishments in a fitting context is the primary issue here; while relevant, whether or not the comparison is flattering is another matter. Any assessment of Gates' cognitive function necessarily depends on subjective criteria, as advances in the art of modern psychiatric diagnostics have not yet produced any medical test whatsoever that might identify an underlying pathology. The best diagnostic model modern medicine has come up with to date, the chemical imbalance theory, in its subjectivity is at best equivalent to Grandin's evaluation of Gates; common sense, in this case, indicates the cliche, 'it takes one to know one', is at least as valid in rendering an assessment of Gates' high functioning Asperger's. Further examples of the diagnostic features Gates exhibits might begin with his phenomenal memory as a youth, an indicator of an eidetic memory, common among individuals who fall along the autism spectrum. It is not clear which features, if any, of Asperger's that Gates does not exemplify. Ombudsman 17:49, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Okay, Gates rocks, and he has a very good memory. That doesn't prove that he has Asperger's syndrome. I'm sure there are people who rock that don't have Asperger's syndrome. And I'm almost certain there are people with eidetic memories that don't have Asperger's syndrome; otherwise the section on eidetic memory should be edited to reflect this.

One reason to suspect that he might not have Asperger's syndrome is that his achievements seem unlikely ones for an Aspie. One would expect that being CEO of a company better known for clever and ruthless business decisions than for technological innovations would need a very high understanding of human nature. That is exactly a quality that Aspies are said to lack. If he is an Aspie, he would seem very typical in this respect.

I've changed the sentence saying Bill Gates is "said" to have Asperger's syndrome, to Bill Gates is "believed by some" to have Asperger's. I am in favour of taking out the reference all together, since it is neither a certain reference, nor are Bill Gates' accomplishments representative of successful autistics. Perhaps it could be replaced by a list of other famous suspected autistics, including people such as Bill Gates, Albert Einstein, Thomas Jefferson, Nikola Tesla, Erik Satie, Glenn Gould.

--ErikStewart 16:49, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Lucien. If this is a supportable fact it should be added onto the Bill Gates page also. Ombudsman, would you be willing to add it somewhere on that page, or bring it up in the Gates discussion page? --ErikStewart 17:18, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Yikes. In the middle of preparing a new Simpsonwood vaccine conference article right now, with an overhaul of the Insurance article next on the priority list. Your sentiments regarding mention of others with possible ASD traits, which would be too unweildy for the intro, are entirely reasonable, but perhaps that might fit better in an article section. As a CEO, Gates' propensities do set the tone, but the Machiavellianism of Microsoft is more aptly attributable to the machinations of the type of people he has surrounded himself with. The question was posed deliberately, in an attempt at shorthand, as one of whether or not there are any Asperger's traits that Gates doesn't exhibit. If anything, Aspies are often prized as employees, in engineering and other fields, for dispassionate traits that enhance a style of objectivity, scientific, Machiavellian, or otherwise, that few others can achieve; a case in point: Grandin's perspective on the behavioral differences between British and continental cattle. Ombudsman 18:01, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't really care whether BG may or may not have remotely diagnosed autism. I can't see any excuse for including it in the lead paragraph about Temple Grandin. At best it could be a footnote here, and is really a subject for the Bill Gates article, or has it already been trounced on the talk page there? -- Solipsist 18:25, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I also think that Bill Gates shouldn't be in the intro-paragraph regardless. I introduced the Asperger's discussion to the Talk:Bill Gates page a few days ago, but it hasn't yet been answered. --ErikStewart 20:48, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Grandin's self comparison alone makes the association worthy of more than a mere footnote. The issues relevant to an introduction perhaps should revolve around that which makes the article encyclopedic - in this case Grandin's grand accomplishments - and the most obvious gateway to introducing perspective thereupon would entail a human comparison. Bill Gates just happens to fill the bill. Perhaps one of you can suggest a means whereby Grandin's encyclopedic noteworthiness could be placed in a more relevant perspective? Ombudsman 08:53, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bringing up Bill Gates in this article is like John Kerry saying "Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian" in a presidential debate. It just seems inappropriate, irrelevant, calculated to make some self-absorbed point.

[edit] POV comment

Recently, User:138.67.16.55 added the paragraph

Although her intentions may be good, it could actually be argued that Temple Grandin has in fact done more harm than good for animal rights. After all, sending the message to the public that animals are being "humanly slaughtered" has the effect of easing guilt that people might feel about consuming meat. Meanwhile, billions of farm animals in the US live their entire lives in over-crowded indoor buildings.

This may be true, but at the moment it is just a personal comment and also POV. It really needs a sourced reference to be included. -- Solipsist 19:34, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Without addressing the merits of the argument, which seem correct to me, this comment isn't appropriate here. A good way to get this criticism into the article would be to quote a reputable source that makes this argument. I think that would make the article more balanced. Danlovejoy 20:27, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

You can't just paste in what you wrote before and support it with a link to an activist web site. That's not really a reference. You need to find a reference which is specifically critical of Grandin's work - a source that essentially backs up what you're asserting here. While farm animals may live their entire lives indoors, Grandin's work has more to do with "humane" slaughter. Once again, I think it's a valid argument and certainly appropriate for this article, but it's controversial, so it's going to require substantial backing. Danlovejoy 00:59, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

In fairness, some criticism of her does seem to exist [4]. I do recall listening to an interview she did on NPR where she compared autistic behavior to animal behavior, which in itself would be controversial as well. Perhaps a Controversy section is called for. BTW, what's up with the references template? What's the info that's disputed? Neurodivergent 23:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Where does this link present this criticism? I read the article twice and it's all praise, or am I missing something? This type of criticism needs to be bolstered with at least one citation from a reputable source, usually more is needed for inclusion in a biography (see John Seigenthaler Sr.). Since such references are not given, I have commented out the controversy/criticism section for now.AvB ÷ talk 12:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

It simply doesn't belong here, because it applies to the entire field of animal welfare. I'm also not sure how eating meat is inherently bad for people, as the current version of the comment (in the article) seems to imply. - Samsara _contrib ^talk 14:29, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I've removed it from the article. AvB ÷ talk 09:14, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits 9 April 2006

History of the disputed paragraph: (1) Original version by User:Skysmith; (2) Intermediate version posted by User:Szyslak; (3) Disputed version posted by User:Benche19. I suspect that the editor's problem with the paragraph was caused by the third edit, which does seem to add untowards criticism of, mainly, those who had diagnosed "brain damage." Then again, this is offset by the paragraph's opening sentence "Grandin grew up in a time when very little was known about autism." I'm unhappy with the result (not to mention the edit summaries) so I'll re-edit, avoiding the suspicion of doctor/psychologist/psychiatrist-bashing. And although citations are always welcome, I'm not sure this specific paragraph needs one since it's peppered with references like "she considers," correctly attributing this to TG and indicating it's found in her autobio as mentioned on the talk page. AvB ÷ talk 09:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)