Talk:Taoism/Archive 2

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Contents

To be merged

I took this text on Eastern philosophy because I think this level of detail belongs to [[Taoism] main article:

Taoism's central books are the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang Tzu (Zhuangzi). Tradition had it that the Tao Te Ching of Lao Tzu (Laozi) dates to approximately 600 BCE. Recent archeological finds have reinforced the scholarly argument that it was still being shaped around or after the time of Chuang Tzu (Zhuangzi). The core concepts themselves may be much more ancient, incorporating elements of mysticism dating back to prehistoric times.
The traditional story: The Tao Te Ching was written by Lao Zi (Wade-Giles, Lao tse), a minor Chinese court official (and, according to Taoist legend, teacher to Confucius) who became tired of the petty intrigues of court life, and set off to leave China by the "Western Pass". He was stopped by a "keeper of the pass" who, noting that valuable wisdom should not be taken away, required Laozi to put his tao into words -- whereupon Laozi quickly jotted down the 5000 characters that make up the Tao Te Ching (which actually contains about twice that).
His Taoism (interpreted by some as a version of quietism) involved a slogan often translated (obscurely) as "action through inaction", wu wei. The "wu" is not problematic -- it's just "lack" or "absence." But "wei" has a cluster of meanings, including "for the sake of", "doing", and "regarding or deeming as." (A cognate wei means "to call or designate", and another works like the linking verb "is.") We can speculate that the whole idea suggests no actions generated by concepts. The closest familiar Western idea would be something like non-deliberative or sub-conscious action. This produces the familiar gloss in interpretations that one should effect changes subtly and without disrupting the natural flow of the universe, rather than by attempting to force change according to some conceptual norms (a for the sake of).
A related core structural feature is the argumentative reliance on the dualism of concepts (names). All terms are discussed as paired with their opposites and rather than a model where names refer to objects, the text hints that the complementary concepts (names) map onto distinctions that we can draw in reality. (Mastery of language consists in correctly being able to distinguish using the names). Laozi links this learned capacity to learned (hence unnatural) desires which, in turn, lead to wei--action informed by names, learned patterns of discrimination, and associated desires.
The most famous example of this dualism is one only briefly hinted at in the text but which becomes dominant in the Han (220 BC-3rd centry AD) is the yin-yang dualism that dominated the cosmology of the traditional China. These symbolize the divisions of light and dark, male and female,hot and cool, dominant and submissive, upper and lower, stiff and yielding, hard and soft, active and passive etc. Where Confucianism "favors" the "good" yang, Daoism sees them as interdependent. One half is no better than the other, and indeed, neither can exist without the other, since each contains a small amount of the other. Ultimately, both are the same thing -- the great ultimate which a tao "carves" into two to guide action in some WAY. (The concrete -- pun intended -- translation of dao is "road".)
Some time after the publication of the Tao Te Ching and another work by Zhuang zi (Wade-Giles, Chuang tse), Taoism developed its religious aspect, especially among the Chinese peasantry. Lao Zi and other famous personas were elevated to deity status among followers, and complex religious rituals involving alchemy, magic spells and symbology began to be practiced.

I will try to merge this in the article. gbog 16:18, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sacred Sites

Could someone please include a section on the Sacred sites in this religion please. Just a suggestion, but it could be useful.

discrepancies

A: The depiction of the Tai Chi is incorrect, it should be facing so that tha tails of the yin and the yang point with the little end counter clockwise of the big end. (I hope that was descriptive enough). Yin should be on bottom (preferably). Which Way Taichi similar link, only posted in case previous link fails Basically the reasoning can be boiled down to the direction the Chinese compass points (down) and the way the seasons flow. It can be argues that Yin on top is okay in America considering our compasses point up (i.e., away from the viewer). By having the tails point the way they do, however, makes the assumtion that Spring follows after Summer, the dragon is in the West, and that West is the direction of metal (an the dozens of other things mapped onto the Taichi).

B: Additionally I thought I'd comment on the spelling problem. I believe the NPOV clearly states that personal opinion doesn't matter. A simple google search will tell you which is more common (by a landslide). Dustin Asby 23:43, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. I call myself a "Daoist" and consider "Daoism" to be the more accurate term, but at the moment, "Taoism" is better-established and more recognizable. Remember wu-wei -- if "Daoism" is truly the better term (as I think it is), it will eventually exceed "Taoism" in usage on its own, and then we can change the Wiki usage without controversy. Until then, I think we should accept the current usage. A bunch of Daoists/Taoists trying to force change seems kind of silly to me. --Nat 02:52, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

isn't calling yourself a "taoist" a way of concealing yourself within the mask of a group identity in a way that lao tzu suggests is somewhat counter productive? seems to suggest attachment to concepts rather than experience. Jung said " i'd rather be Jung than a jungian." Or as bronski beat once sang "i'd rather jack...than fleetwood mac...no heavy metal, rock n'roll or music from the back.. i'd rather jack"

Some notes

I was under the impression that wu wei was a Zen concept, but I'm most likely wrong. More important, however, is that we have an article on a religion/philosophy that mentions a belief in God without elaborating on Taoism's apparent theism. Of course, I could be limited by my Western concepts. -- Kizor 22:45, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Do you mean God or god? Isn't the term God restricted to Christianity? If yes, how is the topic of God fit in a taoism article? Kowloonese 00:13, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
I think God in capitals can be used to refer to anything of the Supreme Being/Alpha and Omega/He That Is variety. -- Kizor 02:32, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)


I trust both of you will restrain yourself from making any contribution to the article as a result of this demonstration that you know absolutely nothing about the subject matter. -- Steven Zenith 05:05, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why isn't it lucky that there's someone to set the record straight in such a wise and insightful way.

Taoism the religion

The biggest problem with this article is that it places the emphasis of Taoism on the philosophy, something the West seems to adore. However, in modern China (PRC, Hong Kong, Taiwan), the expression of Taoism the religion is much, much more prevalent. Unless anyone has any objections, I'm going to update the religion section a bit more and put in a few pictures.

What you are proposing would be a valuable addition to the article, IMO. Sunray 19:36, 2005 Jan 30 (UTC)
This section is still sorely needed. I see no mention of Zhang Daoling, Lingbao, Shangqing, Sanqing or other important aspects of actual Daoist history. Jiawen 10:22, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)


I started work on delineating the religion from the philosophy, but it's going to take a lot more work. Jiawen 17:06, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Nice work but I would state the delineating in one line inside the header and put your developped additions in a dedicated section. gbog 05:27, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)
The differences are not easy to sum up. I am going to be writing a section more specifically on Daoist religion, but for now, I think it works as it is. Jiawen 18:35, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
A comprehensive synopsis of Taoist history can be found in my Beginner's Guide to Daoism. James Miller, Jul 26 2005.

Society's artifical values

"Desire created through the influence of society's artificial values hinders one's ability to understand The Way"

This is in the current revision of the article. I am not an expert in Taoism, although I have read quite a bit on it, and I'm not sure why we would locate detrimental desire in society. My impression has always been that desire, per se, clouds one's understanding of the way.

I will plan to change this, unless we can hash this out here. And, of course, I would much prefer to hash it out here. --Enkrates 00:36, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that it is a central theme of Taoism that Tao is strongly present in nature and obscured in human society. As Paul Halsall puts it: "There is a common disapproval of the unnatural and artificial. Social convention is rejected in favour of the ecstatic and the immediate nature of experience"[1]
What is the origin of desire, if not society? Sunray 08:21, 2005 Apr 7 (UTC)
After spending some time with the texts, I think I got some buddhism in my Tao. I retract my criticism. :) --Enkrates 20:27, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

The Tao-te Ching advocates detachment. This quote might be helpful.

  • "A sage can have things without feeling they "own" them. The sage does things without putting an emotional stake into the outcome. The task is accomplished, but the Sage doesn't seek credit or take pride in the accomplishment. Because the Sage is not attached to the accomplishment, the accomplishment lasts forever." Apollomelos 09:16, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
Brilliant! Thanks. Sunray 16:25, 2005 May 14 (UTC)

Taoism as state religion

I'm surprised with the recent editions of this article : Taoism was a state religion in China from Tang to Qing ??? Most Chinese are Taoist ??? Please add some references, instead I would see myself in the obligation of removing a lot of those. gbog 04:52, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

  • "Many Western scholars believe that Daoism is still a strong force among the Chinese people, especially in rural areas." - MSN Encarta
  • "The end of the Ch'ing dynasty in 1911 brought about the end of state support for Taoism." - University of Virginia
  • "Taoism started as a combination of psychology and philosophy but evolved into a religious faith in 440 CE when it was adopted as a state religion." - Religious Tolerance

Links to the information are provided on the article's page under references. Hope this helps. Apollomelos 13:56, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Well erh... I'm still not fully contended with the intro of the article : in reading those few sentences, a reader could believe that 1) Lao-tseu did exist (what is far from proven), 2) Lao-tseu did "found" a religion (what sounds weird), 3) Taoism was the accepted state-religion in China from Tang to Qing (was is obviously false) and 3) that Confucianism is also a religion (was is debatable). I'd try to tune this a bit. gbog 05:04, 2005 May 19 (UTC)
I've revised the lead paragraph. I had also been troubled by the wording "Laozi, a philosopher of Honan, founded it..." I have modified the wording about "state religion" to recognize your point and, also, changed the wording with respect to describing Confucianism as a religion (though I'm not wild about the phrase "religio-philosophic"). Perhaps we can do better than that, but I can't think of anything now. Sunray 05:56, 2005 May 19 (UTC)
It's better like this but I steel feel a kind of disappointement... I worked earlier on another version of article that seems to me to be a little better if not as deeply developped : http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taoism&oldid=12190387 . No time for now to compare in details but the intro, while shorter, is closer to what I would expect for an encyclopedia. gbog 07:56, 2005 May 23 (UTC)
I just re-read the earlier version you refer to above. You are right. It is better! Sunray 07:36, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

This article is aweful. Apparently, from the above, none of the contributors so far are in any sense qualified to contribute to this article. Taoism does require a contribution that covers the philosophy, the personalities, the chinese religion and the history of it, the contemporary forms and the new orders. I suggest you invite Chad Hansen at Hong Kong University to contribute (Google him) or invite the Taoist crew in alt.philosophy.taoism to have a go (Matt or Lisa might like to take a stab). In the meantime try a simple statement of the facts and stay away from interpretation. - how hard is that? -- Steven Zenith 05:13, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Steve: Since this is a wiki, anyone can contribute. People help out as they are inclined. Go ahead and contact the folks you mention above. I think we all agree that the quality can be improved greatly. Sunray 16:45, 2005 Jun 2 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Steven Zenith on this. He is actually one of the very few who is qualified to contribute, and his recommendation of Chad Hansen is good.


i love to recommend....i'd recommend it to my friends...it feels so good, you really should...the clarity never ends.

Dates (eras) in this article

Jguk just reverted and changed the dates in this article to BC/AD (they were a mix of BCE/CE and BC/AD previously).

Wikipedia guidelines are clear on the use of Eras in articles:

Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable, but be consistent within an article. Normally you should use plain numbers for years in the Common Era, but when events span the start of the Common Era, use AD or CE for the date at the end of the range (note that AD precedes the date and CE follows it). For example, 1 BC–AD 1 or 1 BCE–1 CE.

It is up to the author(s) of an article to determine the dating system to be used and there must be consistency with each article. In this case, for a non-Christian topic in a non-Christian region of the world, BCE/CE appears to make the most sense. However, it is advisable to get consensus on this talk page before proceeding to make wholesale changes to the dating of eras. Comments? Sunray 16:53, 2005 Jun 2 (UTC)

I see that an anon editor has changed the dates in the first part of the article back to BCE/CE. To avoid any possibility of a "revert war" over eras (as has happened recently with respect to articles on Persia, believe it or not), it would be great if people who are contributing to this article could establish a consensus on what dating system we will use for this and other articles on Taoism. Note that there is currently a mix of BCE/CE and BC/AD in this article (though other articles on Taoist subjects use BCE/CE exclusively). Sunray 18:59, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)

I would prefer BCE/CE. gbog 04:35, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)
Two weeks have past since I posted this. Only two of us authors have spoken. However, we agree on BCE/CE, so I will change to that to maintain consistency within the article as per the guideline. Sunray 07:18, 2005 Jun 19 (UTC)

NPOV

There is a clear bias in this article towards popularised Taoism. There is also a strange cultural slant in this article. Pontifexmaximus 17:28, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm unclear what you mean by "popularised Taoism". Popularized as by Western audiences? Or popularized as by Chinese people? Also, can you be more specific about what kind of slant you see in the article? Jiawen 17:57, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There's been a very interesting development of Taoism in the West. This development has been primarily due to groups like the WRT which used a very specific strain of Taoism and presented that as The Taoism. For that reason, most of the Western concept of Taoism is based on the thinkings of a particular sect and not on Taoism as a whole. This article which I edited to be slightly less sectarian was reverted back to the nonsense I replaced. For example, the Tao Chia vs Tao Chiao distinction isn't held by 90% of Taoist sects. It was a classification developed in the Chinese "Middle Ages" to help order the lists of schools. This distinction is over stressed in this article. There are philosophers who are influenced by Taoism, but there are no Taoist-Philosophers - if that makes sense (cont. there are theists who are influenced by Taoism, but there are no Taoist-Theists). The slant is also towards Taiwanese Taoism. The article was reverted back to the incorrect version. This isn't surprising given the nature of most Western Taoists. Pontifexmaximus 28 June 2005 14:33 (UTC)
I put in an NPOV tag to indicate the problem. Pontifexmaximus 28 June 2005 14:47 (UTC)
My intent was to distinguish what most Westerners think of as Daoism -- namely, the cool philosophies of Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi --from what it actually is. I probably shouldn't have used the terms Daojiao and Daojia, but in my experience, Chinese people tend to use those terms themselves. Basically, we need a one- or two-word term for what Westerners think of as Daoism, and a one- or two-word term for what it really is. "Daoist philosophy" and "Daoist religion" don't really fit the bill; neither does "Lao-Zhuang Thought" and "the Daoist church". What would you suggest? It's almost tempting to call it "Lao-Zhuang thought" and "Real Daoism", but I don't think that would go over very well. :)


It is probably my own ignorance at work (as so often is the case), but why are we warping a subject to fit an audience? Surely the article is correct or it is incorrect? I would question your use of "Chinese people tend...", but that's just me. My edit showed that the Tao Chia and Tao Chiao concept was a popular misconception without dramatically altering the content. By doing this, the article then used the terms in the same way they were originally used - as a guide. The article prior to my edit used the terms misleadingly. Feel free to use the terms, but use them correctly. Pontifexmaximus 28 June 2005 19:17 (UTC)
I agree that the article should be correct, regardless of audience. However, with something as tricky as Daoism, it's very hard to get things completely accurate and objective.
I agree that Daojiao and Daojia are closer in reality than most people assume they are, but I'm not sure if we agree on how... As I see it, Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi's texts are extremely important parts of the Daoist Canon, but they are only parts, not the entirety. There are lots of other important parts of the Canon.
However, the Dao De Jing and Zhuangzi books are often studied and used on their own, without regard to the other books in the Canon, and without regard to temple-based Daoism, lineage transmission, internal alchemy, etc. This is true in both Western countries and Chinese countries.
One could argue that the lineage traditions, internal alchemy, temples, etc. (which I call Daojiao for simplicity, while still searching for a better term) are Daoism's true nature, but there are still people who read and follow Lao-Zhuang thought, without regard to those other aspects of Daoism. Which is the true Daoism here?
I believe the article should give primacy to what I'm calling Daojiao here, with a bit about Lao-Zhuang-only stuff tacked on. How would you like to see the article look?
Oh, and PS: Yes, wikis are supposed to be open to editing by anyone. But that doesn't mean that we should keep reverting the article back and forth. When disputes arise, it's clearly time to discuss the matter and try to reach agreement on where the truth lies. Jiawen 29 June 2005 05:32 (UTC)
Your comment required me to reflect on this issue for a while. I apologise if I don't make sense. Let us ignore Taoism for a moment. Let us consider Christianity. I study early Christian writings, like the Infancy Gospel of St Thomas. I might adapt my lifestyle to be in accordance with with the philosophy of the text. In fact, I might reject everything else but this text. The text guides me and my actions. That doesn't make me an Early Christian, though.
Imagine that a Bible falls into space. It travels thousands of light years through space unharmed until it reaches another planet. Miraculously, it doesn't burn up in the atmosphere and, even more miraculously, the creatures on that planet happen to speak and read English exactly the same way we do. Sort of like Stargate. Now, the people read the Bible and start believing that it is true and imitating the practices in the Bible. Are they now Christian?
That's rather more a thorny problem. I'd like to say, 'No.' A religion is not just the texts, but the tradition. A 15-year old disenchanted with Christianity can't read the Tao Te Ching and then claim themselves to be a Taoist. There seems to be a gap in the process. To most schools of Taoism that survived the Great Leap Forward, Taoism has always been a transmitted religion. I learnt my Taoism from my teachers, who learnt it off their teachers, who learnt it off their teachers and so on and so forth. We can't send a pamphlet with a few quotes because Taoism is much richer than just texts.
When I write about the TTC, the Chuang Tzu or the Lieh Tzu academically, I'm not writing about Taoism. I'm writing about a text. When I write about the text, I'm not being a Taoist. In the same way, when I write about the Bible academically, I'm not writing about Christianity. I'm writing about a text. When I write about the text, I am not being a Christian.
There are schools of Taoism which are distinctly less mystical than the others. That is correct. My school doesn't teach immortality, for example. But that doesn't mean that those branches of Taoism are Tao-No-Religion schools. My Taoism is just as religious as, say, Dragon's Gate or I-Kuan Tao it's just that the focus isn't on that form of mysticism.
When I edited the article, I tried to keep the essential message of the previous version. I didn't want to alienate the people who identified with Taoism (though, strictly, probably aren't). I may have pushed the pendulum too far and I would love to work with whomever that IP address is to find a happy medium that really does express Taoism - both the Western Conception and the transmitted schools - well.
Some people would argue that to be a Christian, all you have to do is follow the Golden Rule. That that is the single, essential core of Jesus' teachings. Someone who follows that dictate is doing what Jesus said, and many would argue that that person is more Christian than a person who goes to church, gets baptized, etc. without fulfilling the moral components of the religion.
In the same way (and just to be clear), someone who follows Lao Zi's teachings is very much a Daoist. Maybe not the same kind as someone who follows the other rituals and practices of Daoism, but a Daoist nonetheless. Someone who writes about and studies Daoism without believing or practicing what it preaches is not a Daoist, you're right, but someone who follows the beliefs without the practices is still Daoist.
You're right, though, that the texts aren't the religion. I tend to think in terms of texts, because I'm interested in ideas rather than practices. But Daoism without its practices is not the full Daoism (無行道非道 :)), that is sure.
So maybe that's what we should focus on: texts vs. practices. Giving a small bit of space to the texts, then explaining the practices (qigong, neidan, spells, etc.) in the majority of the article. How does that sound? Jiawen 29 June 2005 17:18 (UTC)
Given enough time, you can find anybody who'd argue anything. Saying that you could find somebody who'd argue that they were a Christian, is like me saying that I can find somebody who'd argue that The DaVinci Code is 100% accurate in its historical claims. Down below all of this, a member has created a subsection entitled Structure which looks like an excellent solution to this problem. Using that structure, it would be very easy to show the progression from traditional Taoism through to the modern Western concept. Hell, you could even coin the term 'Neo-Taoism' in order to keep everybody happy. That system would be much more accurate than the Chia/Chiao paradigm and it would be difficult to express a bias in the article given that structure.
Purely for the sake of appearing human, I figure I might tell you a story which relates to your comment. I was a part of a group of Taoists online who shared the views of various schools. It was really good and rewarding given that it is so very hard to find the more traditional Taoists on the internets. A person with whom I later became quite good friends stumbled on to the forum by searching for a rather specific word. She thought that our practices were fascinating given that she thought the TTC expressed simplicity and freedom from rituals. Instead of declaring herself a Taoist, after a while she coined the term 'Laoist' to describe her devotion to the Tao Te Ching. It was an excellent solution to the discussion we were having (very Seven Sages-like) about whether or not Taoism was surviving in the West: it had given birth to Laoism. Pontifexmaximus 29 June 2005 17:55 (UTC)
You have curious usage of the phrase "back and forth". After my changes vanished into the ether, I put in a NPOV tag. So far, I haven't heard from the person who reverted the article, which seems to be very odd. Ah, well. This is certainly a very fascinating process. Pontifexmaximus 29 June 2005 15:20 (UTC)
The article wasn't really into a full revert-fest, but I could see the beginnings of one. Jiawen 29 June 2005 17:18 (UTC)
Ah, I see! Pontifexmaximus 29 June 2005 17:55 (UTC)
Eventually, I'd like to have an article that discusses Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi in one section, and then goes into Lingbao, Shangqing, etc. for the majority of the article. Jiawen 28 June 2005 15:49 (UTC)
Pontifexmaximus: The changes you have made to the article, which have been reverted (though not by me) are extensive. Since the article has been stable for sometime now, perhaps you could discuss your proposals at more length on this page. Sunray June 28, 2005 19:02 (UTC)
I didn't mean to cause a fuss. I changed the article because it was incorrect due to an innocent bias. For some reason, I thought that was the point of Wikis but I appear to be mistaken. Should I use the talk page before editing any article? Pontifexmaximus 28 June 2005 19:17 (UTC)

Well, reverts back and forth are usually an indication that there is a need to discuss matters. I thought your changes to the lead paragraph were an interesting way of approaching the subject (my own personal view). However, some of your other changes were problematic. For example, you said:

It is a popular misconception that Taoism itself divides into the philosophical schools and the religious sects (Taochiao). This misconcpetion is based off a later writer who merely used the two terms in order to order the descriptions.

A popular misconception is an important thing to write about, but tricky, so sources would be helpful, (this is an encyclopedia, after all). In the second sentence you refer to a "later writer." Who? Sunray June 28, 2005 19:36 (UTC)

Has there been a revert back and forth? There was a change (mine), it disappeared (revert), so I asked for advice (here). As I said to Jiawen, I haven't heard from the mysterious reverter which makes things very odd.
I changed the first sentence because it wasn't clear or straightforward. I've read it seven times now and each time, I get a completely different meaning, four of which are not strictly accurate. I changed it to a form which I hoped would be recognised by most Taoists and non-Taoists alike. It seems I didn't succeed! Hehehehe.
Are you after sources of the misconception or the original usage? From memory, it was in the writings of Ssu-ma Chien (the "later writer", wrote c. 100 BCE) who was also the source of the story about Lao Tzu. I'd have to search through Shih Chi. Pontifexmaximus 29 June 2005 15:20 (UTC)
I was looking for the source of the notion that it is a popular misconception that Taoism divides into philosophical and religious variants. Otherwise, the statement would constitute original research no? Sunray June 29, 2005 18:20 (UTC)
No, that little factoid has been around since the Penguin edition of the Tao Te Ching. Brute facts aren't interpretations, in the same sense that it is a popular misconception that Frankenstein was the monster and not the creator. You'd be hard pressed to find documentation evidencing that and yet it is a brute fact. What's even more wonderful is that the article as it stands now is testament to the fact that it's a common misconception! Hehehehe. Pontifexmaximus 29 June 2005 18:51 (UTC)
Right, from what you say this "brute fact" vs. "popular misconception" should be no harder to source than the identity of Frankenstein. Or, (novel idea) you might change the way you express this fact. Sunray June 29, 2005 20:59 (UTC)
I seem to be reading your comment as being hostile, which is unfortunate. According to your previous comment (18:20), you wanted the fact that it was a popular misconception sourced. Now, you've changed your statement. Finding a source which shows that Frankenstein is often confused with the monster is very difficult and yet we all know it happens. It is a popular misconception found in many websites. The fact that it is found in many websites and yet it is incorrect given the original usage is evidence that it is a popular misconception. Therefore it isn't original research, it is merely the statement of brute fact. I would be very keen to learn of a way which would express the fact that it is a popular misconception without using the words "popular" and "misconception". Pontifexmaximus 30 June 2005 11:23 (UTC)
I would say "exasperated" rather than "hostile." I made a simple point and you argue it. I respond and you argue that. Meanwhile your tone and "hehehehe's" suggest that you are trolling. Brute facts shouldn't be hard to source. As to Frankenstein, one way to deal with the misconception is simply to quote or paraphrase Shelley, e.g., "This is Victor Frankenstein's creature." It doesn't seem all that hard to me. Sunray June 30, 2005 13:34 (UTC)
Why be exasperated? Your point didn't make sense am I'm merely trying to work out what you mean. It is a popular misconception that it divides into two distinct branches. That is brute fact. What you are saying - if I understand you correctly, which I probably don't given that it seems like you keep changing what you mean - is that you don't want to include that statement which would stop edit wars between people who thought that we'd left it out. My "hehehe"s are merely to try to put some humanity back into this cold text.
Alas, all this seems to be adding to your stress and this entire process seems to be growing foolish. I attempted to correct an article about my religion, it was reverted back to an incorrect version without explanation. Suddenly, I have to play Robot with people who might not even be able to solve the problem anyway (I still have no idea who you are). As I said earlier, I agree with Gbog's idea of restructuring the article to include both ideas. If you'd like to use Gbog's idea as a solution, I'm more than happy to help you with it. If not, then keep the inaccurate article. An incorrect Wikipedia article will not change Taoism! It will but cause some confusion. In the meantime, stress less, my friend. It's only the internet, after all. Pontifexmaximus 30 June 2005 19:59 (UTC)

I don't want to interfere but would you both mind to not speak about Frankestein that extensively here ? The point is to check if Daoism is or not to be analysed into religious and philosophical parts, isn't it ? This question seems a simple one to me : Daoism have both aspects, which are more separated by Westerners because they prefer clean categories, and the distinction is even sometime used to "wash out" certain (religious) practices that doesn't fit well with some modern spiritualism, but, even if one can analyse two (or probably even much more) different sides of Daoism, it remains a globally coherent stream in Chinese thought's history. So Daoism deserves a nicely balanced, informed and structured article, where both analyse and synthesis would be fully developped, possibly in a kind of historic (genealogical) scheme, as I tried below. gbog June 30, 2005 16:19 (UTC)

Hi, Gbog! No, this little conversation is about the Tao Chia and Chiao dichotomy in the article as it stands. The article, like quite a number of other sources, makes it seem like there are two distinct streams of Taoism: the Philosophical and the Religious. This, as you seem to know, is inaccurate and, along with some other things, I tried to change it. That caused the "popular misconception" debate with Sunya. I quite like the look of your idea, but it seems you'll have to get it passed by whomever is in charge around here. Good luck! Pontifexmaximus 30 June 2005 19:59 (UTC)
Thank you Gbog for the reminder about what is important here. I did get hooked into a major sidelight discussion. All I was trying to do was suggest sourcing a statement, but I should have left it at that and not continued. Sunray June 30, 2005 20:28 (UTC)

Structure

Hello everybody. I have hard time to see your respective points. I often think talk pages are not that suitable for real discussions. But we have to do wth the tool we have. We apparently agree that this article could and should be heavily improved. No structure, different pov without articulation, missing important developpements, etc. I would give the following general shape to the article :

1. the heading seems ok to me.

2. a longer paragraph saying shortly origins, main ideas, influences, stating the main points.

3. A first part on "primitive taoism", which could be called by whoever wants "phylosophical taoism", or "Lao-Zhuang taoism".

3.1. Origins (shamanism, seasons, agricultural society, etc.) (first part of actual "history" is this topic)

3.2. Daoist founders (a word about 100 schools, etc.)

3.2.1. Lao Zi, wu-wei, emptiness, power

3.2.2. Zhuang Zi (as a development of Lao Zi) relativism, "esthetism", anti-politism

3.2.x. ...

3.3. Influences (Legalism, Synchronism theory)

4. Taoism in Imperial China

Here I'm not very able to split in parts. Maybe : Relationship with emperors, Daoism as a religion for the lower classes, Daoism and arts, Daoism and Buddhism

5. Modern Daoism

In China, in Western countries.


What do you think about this canvas ? What is missing ? gbog June 29, 2005 16:07 (UTC)

I like it and will help work on it. Sunray June 30, 2005 20:24 (UTC)


Thanks. I've tried a big restructuration. For now, it is still far from standard quality but I hope I have removed most repetitions and give a general shape. Most chapters still have to be reworked to articulate better with the rest and missing info should be added. I have moved a big chunk to Taoist Doctrine but I guess an excerpt of it should remain in this article. I've made many cut-n-paste and some rewriting, so if something is missing it is probably not because I don't like it, but because I had to use an axe to do the job. I hope you and Pontifex as well as other people will agree to help me with the necessary polishing work (first with a rasp, then with a file). gbog July 2, 2005 18:09 (UTC)

Interactions with Buddhism and Confucianism

I've been puzzling over this phrase in the Overview section: "[Taoist ideas and sects] have been spiritually challenged by Buddhism and socially denigrated by Confucianism." While I'm sure that this is the case, I think it may be insufficient to just say that. In other words, I don't think it represents the whole picture, just a part of it. More important, it seems to me would be to talk about the ways in which the three systems have interacted with and influenced each other. For example, the interaction between Buddhism and Taoism produced Ch'an Buddhism and later, Zen. The interactions between Confucianism and Taoism are likewise rich, flowing in both directions. Thoughts? Sunray July 6, 2005 02:08 (UTC)

You're right. I think we should have a short sentence in the overview that says something like : Taoism had complex relationships with Buddhism and Confucianism. These relationships were made of mutual influence as well as competition. Buddhism challenged Taoism on its spiritual "side", while orthodox Confucianism tried to confine Taoism in the private sphere of life. But Chinese synchretism (melt everything into a mess) that doesn't allow for clear distinctions and radical oppositions, this synchretism resulted eventually in the Neo-confucianism of Zhu Xi, which was considered as orthodoxy until the Ming dynasty This is verbous and should be rephrsed. Those topics have to be expanded in dedicated paragraphs. I'll do my best and write on them. Thank for your work. gbog 6 July 2005 06:14 (UTC)
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