Talk:Tao Te Ching

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Contents 1 Historical existence of Lao Tzu 2 Move: Capitalization 3 The Leguin translation.. 4 Is this really there? 5 Emptiness or Nothingness ? 6 The Way 7 Clarity 8 Restructuring 9 Translations 10 removed redundant part 11 Is Tao Te Ching A Self Help Book? 12 Lao Zi 13 Political implications 14 Name change for article 15 Date system 16 A sage called Laozi? 17 TTC Chapter 1, 39 & 42 18 Versions of name 19 Requested move

[edit] Historical existence of Lao Tzu

COMMENT: The historical existence of Lao Tzu in unconfirmed according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica. What is your source for the statement that the existence of Lao Tzu is historically confirmed? That the Tao Teh Ching is not the work of one man is generally accepted.

I'd suggest you simply make the change that you believe is necessary; this will save time, and if the author doesn't like it, he can always change it back (and then you could discuss the problem). Just my suggestion. -- Larry Sanger

COMMENT: There is no justification for any such categorical statement. To take but the matter of Ssu-ma Ch'ien, I quote:

 Even the 'biography of Lao Tzu' which may be found
 in the 'Historical Records' (Shih-chi) of Ssu-ma Ch'ien (second
 century B.C.) is not without its inconsistencies. This record 
 describes Lao Tzu as having been an archivist of the Court of 
 Chou, and further states that he is said to have 
 personally instructed Kung Fu Tzu (Confucius). (Which is
 inconsistent with other supposed information about Lao Tzu.)

Indeed, the author of the 'Historical Records' himself expresses doubt about the authenticity of the available information. Thus, although you may of course personally hold the opinion that Lao Tzu existed and the Tao Te Ching is the work of one man, it is altogether inappropriate to present these views as accepted fact.

I am a Chinese myself, and though the historical existence of the sage Laozi was rumoured in several important Chinese historical works, the real life of the man was surrounded in shadow where most people who claimed to have known him were not the most authentic. The existence of Laozi was still currently a debated issue in China and common public knowledge of him was only 'a rumoured sage who left the Tao te Ching'. Indeed, in many common folklores he was even made out to be some sort of incarnate Deity who returned to the Heavens or a shamanistic wise- man who received the favour of the gods. Given these resources I would argue that a more doubtful voice is needed upon the introduction to Laozi than that is currently available on Wikipedia. --User:Luthinya 31 October 2005

[edit] Move: Capitalization

Also, even if it is more suitable to use the pinyin transliteration, shouldn't all the words in the title be capitalized (Dao De Jing) instead of the current one? (Just like we have The Art of War but not The art of war.) --Lorenzarius

I personally like the all capitalized version better. I think "Tao Te Ching" would be a more appropriate article title, despite the greater accuracy of Pinyin, simply because the article is in English, and the vast majority of English language versions of the work spell it in Wade-Giles. User:kwertii

Since neither the original writer nor anybody else spoke up in favour of retaining the lowercase, I have deleted the redirect and moved the page. --Menchi 23:25 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

And the history of the deleted redirect page is:

• M 08:51 25 Feb 2002 . . User:Conversion script (#REDIRECT Dao de jing)
• 04:07 30 Jun 2001 . . User:Stephen Gilbert

--Menchi 23:27 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

---

Te, not Teh

The pre-pinyin common romanization "Tao Te Ching" is the Wade-Giles romanization, not "Tao Te'h Ching". There's no syllable teh in Chinese, in either pinyin or Wade-Giles. The yunmu eh in Wade-Giles is not the schwa as in 德 (pinyin: de, Wade-Giles: te), but it is like the English interjection eh!, as in 葉/叶 (pinyin: ye, Wade-Giles: yeh). The Wade-Giles ehs zhuyin equivalent is ㄝ and pinyin equivalent is e (like the schwa, but they never occur in the same context, save for one tiny exception of 誒, and in this case, it is rendered in pinyin as ê, which also happens to be what the schwa in Wade-Giles is when it stands alone. The table below should help clarifying).

Zhuyin	Pinyin	Wade-Giles	Character	Example
ㄜ	e	ê, -e or -o (after h- or k-)	鵝 'goose'	德 'virtue'
ㄝ	ê, -e	eh	誒 'eh!'	葉/叶 'leaf'

The hyphens in the table above signify that there's something (shengmu) proceeding it. So -e could be te, de, etc. Menchi 05:53 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)

The -h in Teh is a relic of a pre-Wades-Giles convention to mark words that have the entering tone (rusheng) in non-Mandarin dialects. Google gives about 3000 hits on Tao Teh Ching, mainly for old publications (and about 73000 hits for Tao Te Ching) Stephen C. Carlson 04:32 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC)

Thank you for the insight, Stephen! What more do you know about this pre-W-G transliteration? Do you know what it's called? Thx. -- Menchi 06:21 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC)

There was no real standard and it does not have a name other than pre-Wades-Giles, but this convention was used by James Legge, an early 19th cen. translator of the Chinese classics. Another convention was to use two different spellings for what pinyin j- corresponds to: either k- or ts- depending on how that sound was pronounced outside of Beijing (or Peking as Legge spelled it). Stephen C. Carlson 06:34 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC)

---

Bibliography?

Is there a Bibliography anywhere in here on the Tao Te Ching?

---

There are many possible translations of the book's title, as the meaning of the Chinese characters is somewhat ambiguous. 道 is usually translated into English as "the way ahead", "the path ahead", or simply "the way". This term has special meaning within the context of Taoism, where it implies an innate, nameless property of the universe. Though commonly referred to as the 道德經, the title is actually a fusion of the two books of scriptures, namely 道經 and 德經. Strictly speaking, the two are usually referred to as one book, however, the combined name of both books has no real intended meaning.

I've never read of this 'fusion of two books of scriptures' theory, but I've read in several places something like the previous explanation of the translation of the title... the text below this in the article says that the oldest 2300 year old copies of the Tao Te Ching found are substantially the same as modern editions. What evidence supports the two books of scripture fusion theory? Kwertii 18:41, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

You're right imho: It's more interesting to say that Daode Jing can mean both The Book of the Way and Power and The Book of the Way and its Power (I think Waley's translation uses the latter). These sligth difference is useful to understand what is inside the book. gbog (Sorry for my poor English, I'm a French nioubi) You may see also [1]

To my knowledge, both the GNL (Merel) and Muller translations acknowledge the Daodejing as being comprised of two seperate volumes, the Daojing and the Dejing. In particular: In its original form, the Tao Te Ching (as it is now known) is believed to have consisted of eighty-one short chapters, these being arranged in two sections, known as the 'Tao Ching' and the 'Te Ching'. [2]. Additionally, the trio of characters has no hidden meanings in Classical Chinese, contextually. --Taoster

This seems to contradict what the article here says a few paragraphs later: "The 1973 archeological discovery of complete Chinese "scrolls" (actually silk rolls called the Ma-wang-tui Texts after the village where they were found: Text A, with more lacunae, thought to have been written sometime before Text B which has been dated to 200 BC) reveals that the Dao De Jing as modernly reported is in substantially the same form as that which was written in antiquity, thus limiting the time period during which the writings might have been changed or contributed to." This says that the oldest known versions of the TTC are "substantially the same" as modern versions. This is incompatible with the idea that there were at some point two seperate texts which were joined together... I'm not sure how to go about sorting this one out. Ideas, anyone? Kwertii 23:16, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Well, given that the archival data presented is so insubstantial, I say we let the readers stick to their own interpretations of the title's meaning. --Taoster

There is no contradiction. If you notice, Henrick's translation (based exclusively on the Ma-wang-tui texts) is titled "Te Tao Ching" (rather than "Tao Te Ching"). This is because, even though the text is substantially the same, the two halves of the book are in reverse order. This suggests that they were divided at one point. --C.B.

---

I've modified few things and removed some trying to explain that Confucius is evil and Laozi good... I think the article is still a little bit POV, cause it doesn't tells us much about the political side of it, which is not negligible at all, and a filliation of Lao Zi can be found in the Hanfeizi and Legalism

I'm wondering if it could be possible to add the title, or a sentence, in big chinese chars, with a div. Let's try :

bla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test bla bla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test blabla test bla

What do you think about this ? gbog 16:05, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

---

How does Guodian(郭店) text compares to other texts? Discovered in 1993, written on bamboo slips, it predates Mawangdui(馬王堆) text by about 300 years.

[edit] The Leguin translation..

It's not really a translation, as she is not a Chinese speaker.. it is an interpretation based on another book that lists the Chinese characters and possible english meanings. Additionally, in the commentary of her book she gives a brief exposition about the ma-wang-tui scrolls. I will find my copy of it and post the relevant information to this discussion.

I had a problem with hers too. I am a Chinese myself and have read the Tao many times, certainly often enough to realise many ill- translations that existed within the version of Leguin. In chapter 15 especially where Lao Tzu was trying to 'describe' those who knew the Way, one line was being presented by Leguin as 'blank, like uncut wood', where a much more accurate translation would have been 'pure and natural, like unchiselled gems.' Also, when compared to the classical Chinese, her translation of the penultimate paragraph was far off the mark and simply made not very much sense. It is, as you said, an interpretation more than a translation. But then again, considering that it is impossible to actually translate a language as if it was a code, and that anything dealing with such a mysterious and multifaceted writing can only be one's own interpretation, I think Leguin managed quite well without actually being a Chinese herself. -- User:Luthinya 10:31 13 January 2006

[edit] Is this really there?

I read on this page that two of the main concepts in the Tao Te Ching are:

(1) The wise are responsible for the foolish. (2) The honest are responsible for the dishonest.

May I ask where such is implied? I admit I haven't read it in a long while, but I don't recall this. If it is there, what is meant by "responsible"? From the whole work, I can only conclude some form of "responsible non-action" (did that just make any sense?).

Some translations/interpretations point in the same direction as statement (1) above. The wise ruler keeps his people ignorant, and quietly organizes society in such a way that they come to no harm. However, I personnally think those statements take it too far, and I think they are best removed.--Niels Ø 11:57, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

I think you need to revise on your understanding of Laozi's 'Ignorance'. In the Tao te Ching, he does not make use of that word to imply a return to the animal instincts where we knew nothing and cared for not very much either, but rather as a 'knowledge' of the cruel and tragic 'artificial world' we have constructed in raising intellectualism above intuition and going against the laws of nature. A knowledge of this artificial world, as is believed by the Taoists, disturbs the spirit and makes a man shallow and worldly in the truest sense, so thus they are not interested in this world and began to follow the Tao. That is the reason why the leader must keep his people 'ignorant', so their hearts will not be perturbed by the colourful lusts of the world and will not go against the laws of nature to achieve their aims in ambition, lore etc. This freedom of ambition is part of the ignorance of Laozi, as is quite looked down at by the pragmatic rulers that followed later and who had turned to Confucius. As for coming to no harm, it is more like assuming a natural and pure lifestyle which is in harmony with the way the world works, and which shall obviously come to no strife whatsoever. A lot of uses in words like 'learning', 'ignorance' and 'personal will' are quite different in Laozi than other sources and needed sometimes a more 'intuitive' mind to comprehend. OK, I do agree that some of the statements seemed a little too extreme on a first reading, but at the time the Tao te Ching was written the country was just torn from the war and intrigue of the period before, and the rural people of China longed for nothing except peace from war at least for a while where they could finally get on with their lives, so thus the Tao te Ching was quite welcomed by the new emperors who decided to 'trust the people's will', for once. -- User:Luthinya 12:18 13 January 2006

[edit] Emptiness or Nothingness ?

The word emptiness should be replace with nothingness. The reasons:

1. The character in the original text(無)means nothing. The original text used the character 無 and nothingness is the proper translation for it. Whereas 空 (empty) is the character we use in sentence like "The box is empty." We don't use the character 無 to describe that.

2. Meaning of the character in Taoism's context is definitely more than a completely empty vacuum.

3. Usefulness of uselessness is also one of the essentials in Taoism. The word nothingness can provide this sense too.

4. Let's check the meaning of empty: "1. containing nothing...3. foolish, meaningless, vacuous" (The Oxford Reference Dictionary) "1. with nothing in it...without substance...totally without...without foundation...silly , without seriousness." (Webster's Dictionary)

These mean there could be mud-throwing intentions in English translations.

Nothingness can provide some kinda impartiality in the translation.

5. Try google taoism nothingness and u can get loads of my supporters. These are just a few of them:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/sbe40/sbe4019.htm

http://www.taoistarts.net/main2.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/2883/main.html

http://www.the-professor-mon.com/

--ETTan 03:27, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Be bold and change it yourself ! gbog June 29, 2005 17:46 (UTC)

Well, be cautious for a moment. Everyday, modern use of language isn't always (or even usually) a good guide to the translation of ancient, philosophical terms. The question is: which makes more philosophical sense in the context, "emptiness" or "nothingness". It's not clear to me that "nothingness" is better. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 29 June 2005 18:01 (UTC)

Well, maybe... I'm not native english speaker and I don't remember what's the common usage in translations. 無 Wu is usually the negation of "having", as I have learned. BTW I have read an intersting text of Simon Leys stating, in short, that Wu could be compared with the western "being"... I have the text if you read French, here (search for WU). gbog June 29, 2005 18:49 (UTC)

The books at which I've looked (just on my own shelves; if I get a chance tomorrow, I'll try to check what's in the College library), the translation is mostly "emptiness", and sometimes "non-being" (though the latter, in particular, is usually hedged round with qualifications); no book uses "nothingness". Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 29 June 2005 22:18 (UTC)

The context of the original text

Nothingness has been badly criticized philosophically (Sartre) and theologically(Karl Barth). This could be the reason why most translations prefer using emptiness to distinguish it. However, if we read the text carefully, 無 is actually an adjective that contain and yet far beyond "being". Some may provide emptiness a taoistic meaning in their translation, but the improper sense of vacuity is still there for a reader.

--ETTan 1 July 2005 07:17 (UTC)

To be honest I doubt that any othe translators were influenced by Sartre or Barth; the use of "emptiness" as a trnaslation predates both, and most English translations would be likely to be produced either by Chinese-philosophy specialists or by philosophers in the analytic, not the continental tradition (I don't know, but I'd be surprised if Waley were influenced by Sartre or Barth). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 1 July 2005 10:51 (UTC)

Well enough, but the core issue here isn't when, who or how many of them use the word "emptiness". Afterall, it's the sense of vacuity it provides that is improper to decribe Tao that contains "being". --ETTan 3 July 2005 04:13 (UTC)

I think emptiness actually is a better description of the Tao than nothingness. To me, emptiness more directly implies its container than does nothingness somethingness. This is important. --Benna 4 July 2005 03:07 (UTC)

I rather prefer the translation in most Chinese-English bilingual dictionary: the character 無 means nothing.

--ETTan 4 July 2005 17:36 (UTC)

I agree. Also the use of "nothingness" tends to lead to misleading and pointless paradoxes, giving an impression of pseudo-profundity. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 4 July 2005 10:35 (UTC)

"Right words as if paradox"(Chapter 78) Likewise, Chapter 34,45,81 also show that paradoxity (sometimes sarcasm) is an essential expression in taoist writings. Pseudo-profundity, for u, maybe. However, if u could get a slightest picture of how profound taoism has influenced Chinese literature( the works of Nobel laureate Gao Xingjian is just a drop in the ocean and not to mention other domains), u would like to take those words back, I think. Btw, taoism is a philosophy that embrace the usefulness of uselessness or pointlessness.

--ETTan 4 July 2005 17:36 (UTC)

I'm afraid that you didn't read what I said carefully enough; I made no comment about Taoism, only about the effect of certain translations. I do have an idea of the influence of Taoism (I have, in a minor way, written about it), and though I find much of it to be very interesting, it should be noted that having a profound influence on others is independent of its intrinsic value. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 4 July 2005 21:27 (UTC)

Sorry but no sorry about that, as I've learnt from taoism to interpret text from its context(textual or non-textual) and its real implications.

Tao itself is profound and it also seems paradox and useless.

Profundity,rhetoric or not, normally brings about great impacts. Just to mention a few, taoism, Nietzsche and Derrida are good examples. Thus a real sense of profundity should be included in translation of the character 無。

--ETTan 5 July 2005 02:29 (UTC)

The problem is that you've mentioned two writers neither of whom I hold to be a genuine philosopher, both of whom I hold to be perfect examples of pseudo-profundity (to say the least). On the other hand, I don't think that Taoism is paradoxical and useless; much of it, at least, is vastly more philosophically interesting than either of the two you mention (the former an arrested adolescent, the latter a shallow charlatan). Just my opinion, you understand. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 5 July 2005 10:23 (UTC)

Laozi does show that Tao appears paradoxical and inappreciable:

The great Dao floods freely

Be it left or right

All things born in Dao

Yet utter not a word

Accomplished

Yet no name in haveness

Clothes and nurtures all things

Yet no domination

No greed

So to speak

Inappreciable

All things vest in

Yet no domination

So to speak

Its greatness

As no self-glorifying

Thus its greatness complete

--Chapter 34 Daodejing

Btw, usefulness of uselessness is also one of the essentials in Zhuangzi. The word nothingness can provide this sense too.

--ETTan 5 July 2005 12:27 (UTC)

A summary for using nothingness instead of emptiness

!. The character in the original text(無)means nothing.

2. Meaning of the character in Taoism's context is definitely more than a completely empty vacuum.

3. Usefulness of uselessness is also one of the essentials in Zhuangzi. The word nothingness can provide this sense too.

I shall make the changes if there is no proper objection within one week. --ETTan 03:47, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Ah, Mr Tan (talk • contribs); the name suggested it, and the nature of the English, but this confirms it. Why have you abandoned your old account? If you make the changes without consensus, they'll be reverted — you should know that by now. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:20, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I never abandoned my old account as I don't have one in English version here. Why do u throw mud at me? I demand an apology for that! Could u please share something more relevant and constructive, if possible?

--ETTan 14:07, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

The character 沖 used in chapter 4 was an adjective describing containment rather than vacuity.

--ETTan 21:33, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

And what do you see as the difference, such that it supports your changes to the article? (Note also Wikipedia:No original research.) --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:45, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Its a proper translation, not the original research as mentioned in Wikipedia policy.--ETTan 09:04, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure it will make a difference if u read and treat the original text as a whole rather than garbling. --ETTan 12:34, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

??? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:02, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Please provide proper reasons and don't revert wilfully.

--ETTan 08:58, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Your approach hasn't improved since your time here as Mr Tan and Chan Han Xiang. It will have exactly the same effect. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:20, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I only joined actively as a user since the begining of this month. This is the one and only account I have here. I shall issue a complain against u if u don't take your words back.

Back to the relevant issue. Perhaps u can try to persuade all the publishers of Chinese-English dictionaries to add empty as a meaning for the chinese character無 which means nothing.

--ETTan 11:58, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

1. You started editing on the day that Mr Tan (talk • contribs) stopped (and he started the day that Chan Han Xiang (talk • contribs) stopped).
2. Your attitude to other editors is the same — the same poor attitude to consensus and collaboration, the same insistence on making reverts against consensus, the same (pointless) tactic of pretending that, if people don't reply to the latest reptition of the same point, then they agree with you, etc.
3. If you can demonstrate that I'm wrong, I shall be pleased to withdraw my claims.
4. Are you looking at modern-Chinese dictionaries, or ancient? Are you looking at philosophical dictionaries? My Chinese dictionaries are unfortunately in boxes in the garae, waiting for my library to be finished, but I shall seek advice from qualified colleagues. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:59, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

A big fat lie. Since u have disregarded my warning, I shall issue a complain against u.

Back to the relevant issue again. Let's check the meaning of empty: "1. containing nothing...3. foolish, meaningless, vacuous" (The Oxford Reference Dictionary) "1. with nothing in it...without substance...totally without...without foundation...silly , without seriousness." (Webster's Dictionary) These mean there could be mud-throwing intentions in English translations. So, besides those 3 reasons I mentioned above, I'd like to add that "nothingness" can provide some kinda impartiality in the translation. Thus, I'll revert the text again until u can show me more and better reasons. Taoism is pragmatism of its own kind with emphasis on the usefulness of uselessness, moderated naturalism, wholistic health, political liberalism etc. Therefore, it is contrasted with ontology which presumes essence's total explicability in language. Taoism is de-ontological rather than ontological. There're 3 domains of human values: absolutely absolute, relatively absolute/relatively relative and absolutely relative. It's the absolutely absolute truth that taoism has rejected its possibility of containing in human language. Finally, please don't imply that I could be another avatar. This is the one and only account I have here. I shall issue a complain against whoever bring this implication again. --ETTan 04:14, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Never heard about your "three domains of human values", and it has little if any relationship with the topic (emptiness/nothingness in Taoism). "Taoism is de-ontological" seems very strange as there is no ontology at all in ancient Chinese thought. Again, has only tiny relationship with our topic and is not a reason to change articles and revert the way you do. If your are really new here, what I doubt much and what I should try to proof if I had time, I can explain a little : If you want a controversial proposed change to be accepted, discuss on Talk pages before, wait for answers and see if a consensus by usual editors of the article is attained, (and please stick to the topic). If most other contributors here (and on Taoism) would say nothingness better than emptyness, I would accept it sans problème. But it is not the case and the way you reverts changes and impose your views (and links) isn't the usual here. gbog 05:58, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, some even argued ancient chinese has no metaphysics. Anyway, it's not that relevant here. They r just my "btw" answers. Please read them properly, u might find them useful in your life.

What if I happened to meet someone who take grudge against me and have multiple accounts? Proper reason should be more important than consensus.--ETTan 13:19, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

To ETTan:

1. The English-dictionary reference doesn't apply; the word is being used in its main meaning, and no-one would (except with deliberate malevolence) read it as meaning anything else in this context. When I say that my coffee cup is empty, or refer to the empty set in maths, I'm not implying anything about foolishness.
2. "Deontological" means "concerned with or based on duty".
3. I asked about the kind of Chinese-English dictionary you used: modern or ancient? Ordinary or philosophical? You haven't replied. There are many terms which have very different definitions in an ordinary Engl;ish dictionary and in a philosophical dictionary, and I'd be very surprised if the same weren't true of Chinese.
4. Speculation about someone having had another account isn't prohibited; it's not even in itself negative as there's nothing against changing accounts in Wikipedia policy, nor in hiding the fact that one has done it). If someone has changed account, though, it can be useful for other editors to know and discuss it, as it can explain an editor's approach, and throw light on her methods. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:34, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

All of them. So far I never come across any chinese-english dictionary that use empty as meaning of Wu. I use the word de-ontological in its philosophical sense, not deontology. Is that so? Then I can also speculate that Mr Tan (talk • contribs) is your own creation to throw mud at someone to whom u have take grudge against. I already see that u'll never agree what I said. I'll treat these as word games that will end nowhere. Chit-chat with me whenever u r lonely. U r welcome.--ETTan 13:19, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

The word "deontological" has only one philosophical sense; there's no word "de-ontological".

For Web references, you might look at: [3], [4], [5]

I've seen "wu-i-wu" translated as nothingness, as opposed to "wu", emptiness.

The nearest I can find (in literature concerning Taoism) to a translation of wu as "nothingness is in Charles Wi-hsun Fu;s "Daoism in Chinese Philosophy", in which he refers to wu as "No-thingness", emphasising that it's not merely "nothingness". --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:51, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

I should add this site, which also explictly states that "wu" is not synonymous with nothingness. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:57, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

So tell me the other way to express "de-ontological" in its philosophical that I want to express.

As I told u b4, the using of emptiness in taoist text is a mis-interpretation of the past. Try google taoism nothingness and u can get loads of my supporter. These are just a few of them:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/sbe40/sbe4019.htm

http://www.taoistarts.net/main2.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/2883/main.html

http://www.the-professor-mon.com/

Congratution! u've finally manage to persuade someone to add your lines into the site. But the more authentic way should be:

1. Find someone who knows chinese character.

2. Ask him/her to check each and every chinese-english dictionaries, copy down the bibliographies.

3. Send letters to those publishers.

4. Wait for the results.

Good luck! --ETTan 02:29, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

The word nothingness makes me think of Sartre, whose bleak existentialism should be distinguished from Taoism.

You must not begin by selecting meanings from English dictionaries filled with traditional West/Greek thinking! An introduction to Buddhism might help you better, though.

-Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. --User:Luthinya 12:20 13 January 2006

[edit] The Way

I am of the opinion that we should leave the word Tao untranslated, instead of calling it the Way. The Way is a very rough translation and enlgish really does not have an equivolent word. I think it would be better to allow the tranlations to describe the Tao itself. --Benna 2 July 2005 02:07 (UTC)

Good point. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 2 July 2005 10:13 (UTC)

But the quotation is supposed to be the translation of A. Waley... We must indicate that his work has been modified, I think. gbog July 2, 2005 10:26 (UTC)

When the word comes in a quotation, then yes — using the normal convention of square brackets. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 2 July 2005 13:59 (UTC)

OK --Benna 3 July 2005 03:53 (UTC)

Also, Tao does not really mean, "The Way". But Tao is just...it, Tao is just everything and nothing at the same time, this it is not just the way, but is everyway, and is everything.--69.233.68.218 02:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC) Andrew Scott

Good point! Tao is that- which- is! Can't be translated or described! --User:Luthinya 12:23 13 January 2006

[edit] Clarity

COMMENT: I am sorry to have to say this but to me, as someone reading the article without knowing anything about Taoism, it is so poorly written that I cannot understand the facts contained in it, never mind the niceties I see debated here. I tried to correct the grammar but since the intended meaning was unclear it was impossible. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnrayjr (talk • contribs) 23:02, 7 July 2005.

Well, yes — that's why I added the "copyedit" template. The only thing to do when the English is so poor that its meaning can't be worked out is to comment out the problem passage (or move it to the Talk page). I've been meaning to copy-edit this article thoroughly, but haven't yet found time. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 8 July 2005 07:39 (UTC)

Sorry to criticize but personally I have never had any problem comprehending this article. I think this is because that you knew so little about Taoism for a start and will find some of the harder intuitive thoughts a bit confusing. It is like in Zen where you had to battle thousands of koans before finally able to be "excited" into enlightenment. My background as a native Chinese speaker may have helped me, I do not know, but I would suggest doing some extensive reading before you tackle the article or attempt to read the Tao te Ching as well. --User:Luthinya 12:28 13 January 2006

[edit] Restructuring

It seemed to me that the article was in need of restructuring, so I have done so. The Content section and the Principles section seemed to me to be closely related, and I thought they should be together. I also added a sentence here and there. I made all the changes in one edit to make it easy to revert should the previous version be preferred. The article still needs work, but I hope this is an improvement. A more polished introduction would do wonders here! -Jmh123 08:18, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Ok, not one edit, because I messed around with it in minor ways afterwards. -Jmh123 08:34, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Nice work, very nice work. Thanks a lot, as I'm fully responsible for the "bad English" that you cleaned :) (As you can see, I'm not native English speaker)

BTW, I don't know how you (and others) feel about the "Principle" section. I do think this list of short sentences (that are not in the book, and not explained) may be confusing and/or biaised and/or too simplistic. I guess they are "relics" of ancient states of the article that could/should be removed as long as the themes they cover are already covered in the sections above. Some common quotes of the book could be listed this way, however. gbog 08:08, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree gbog. I didn't want to jump in and delete it, having never contributed to the entry, but I think my added comments to the preface of that section betray my feelings about it. Oh, and thanks! -Jmh123 19:48, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Translations

In the English translations, I see no reference to Red Pine's translation (from Mercury House). Is it that this translation not good or simply that it is not well known? Edited by: The Individual

I hadn't come across it — but do add it to the article (that's what Wikipedia's all about). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:33, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

added -Jmh123 07:43, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I personally like the Red Pine translation and would put it somewhere in the top twelve for fidelity to the Chinese.

Question for readers: I tried twice to post a link to my free online Daodejing translations on my non-commercial website, but this posting was twice deemed to be spam. Is anyone familiar enough with my work to give an opinion? I was asked to ask here if anyone would support or object to another submission, in the online translations section. Bradford Hatcher 23:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

As was explained to you after the first addition, Wikipedia guidelines rule out adding links to your own Web site, commercial or not. The thing to do is to add the link to the relevant Talk pages (at the bottom, rather than in the middle, as people are likely to miss it otherwise), and then leave it. If editors think that it's worth adding, they'll add it. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:24, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] removed redundant part

Below is a part that is partly redundant and tha I have remove (from the "principles" section, now "other themes" and one should check if there is something here that isn't in the article's intro.

Many variations of religious Taoism are replete with polytheism, ancestor worship, ceremony of various kinds, and alchemic efforts to achieve longevity. The obscureness of the book allows virtually anyone to find anything in its 81 concise and poetical chapters, but scholars often agree that its content focuses mainly on mystical, political, and practical wisdom.

Many chapters advocate quietism, harmonious living, and unconditional love, similar to later systems of belief and faith. However, many of these things which are promoted as virtues throughout Taoism are said by Lao Zi to be lesser goods with their complementary evils (see Chapter 18) and they come because of man's deviation from the original 'Way' or Tao. Above all, the book celebrates simplicity as the way, the achievement of Tao.

Whereas the structure and philosophy of the book militate against the very idea of principles, it can be argued that The Tao Te Ching demonstrates understanding of such principles as these:

Behind all this, the Tao Te Ching speaks of the ineffable Tao, or the "Way", which is described as the indivisible and indescribable unifying principle of the universe, from which all flows. It is without time, form or substance. The simpler one becomes, the greater hope one has of co-existing with the Tao, which is the only way it can be truly understood.

[edit] Is Tao Te Ching A Self Help Book?

I am a Chinese and I read many times through Tao Te Ching. I know not why it is categoried as 'Self Help Books'. I dare not to say this book is self helping. Ayway, Lao Tzu was teaching the art of 'Quitting', not 'Winning'. And Napoleon Hill said:"A quitter never wins and a winner never quits." Therefore unless being well-off already, a man who practise Tao Te Ching everyday can never success.Pourfemme 08:22, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Let me just give you another twist to Napoleon Hill's logic. If you believe that materialistic life is full of sufferings and burdens, then "quitting" early is the best way to "win", rather than never "quitting" and letting the sufferings continue. But then again, Tao Te Ching emphasized "wu-wei". Knowing when to act, and when not to act. So it basically boils down to your common sense and you can think whatever you want to do by yourself. Books like this including other books (bibles for example) does not contain truth or self-help in life. It only provides guidance, and you as the reader are encouraged to think independently and see what fit best under different circumstances. Flexibility is best Heilme 09:41, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the category was odd; I've changed it to a more appropriate one. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:57, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

You might change your mind after reading this succint introduction.

--ETTan 05:37, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I've read it, and it hasn't changed my mind. It hasn't gone down too well at Wikisource, either, and I doubt that it will stay there long. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:26, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Tao Te Ching is not a Self Help book, it is merely a book that teaches you the way of being. And that is to just be "it". And that is all that it wants...

[edit] Lao Zi

I realize Lao Zi is closer to the propper pronounciation of the name than Lao Tzu, but Lao Tzu is definatly the most used spelling. A google search for Laozi yields 235,000 hits. Lao Tzu shows 391,000. Perhaps it could read "Lao Tzu (pronounced Lao Zi)." What do you all think? --Benna 10:28, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

As so often, the problem is that there's not one answer to the question: " what is the most commly-used spelling of the name?" It may be that the lay public who are aware of the name are most familiar with the old-fashioned "Lao Tzu", while it's certainly the case that "Lao Zi", "Lao-zi", and "Laozi" are by far the commonest spellings in the literature and among academics. (Google is of limited use, because it constitutes a differently selected group of sources.)

We shouldn't go along with mistakes simply because they're commonly made, though, so the choice should be between "Lao Zi" and "Laozi". A quick and unscientific survey of fairly recent reference books to hand, plus some Web-based texts:

• Laozi

1. Companion Encyclopedia of Asian Philosophy (edd Carr & Mahalingam)
2. A Companion to Wolrd Philosophies (edd Deutsch & Bontekoe)
3. A Companion to the Philosophers (ed. Arrington)
4. Eastern Philosophy: Key readings (ed. Leaman)
5. Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
6. Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
7. Chad Hansen's Philosophy Pages

• Lao-zi

1. One Hundred Philosophers (Peter J. King}

"Lao Zi" doesn't appear anywhere, and "Laozi" is the clear front runner. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:33, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Laozi is my preference as well. Unfortunately the title of the entry for Lao Zi is spelled thusly--unless there can be a redirect page created to Laozi, I think folks may be following the form used in that entry title. -Jmh123 22:38, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

ETA - I should have checked first. The redirect has already been done. Laozi is now "official", so to speak. Interestingly, the "official" title for Zhuangzi is still Zhuang Zi. -Jmh123 22:40, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

There's an attempt at Talk:Laozi to move the article to "Lao Tzu"; you might want to join in. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:48, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Political implications

For the ruler's point of view, nothingness is not far from the liberal laissez-faire approach: letting things happen by themselves is the best way to help them grow. Wouldn't "libertarian" be more accurate? --Tydaj

Depends. In the U.S., perhaps; in Europe, "liberal" still holds its original meaning (though it is now tending to the american usage). Mayhap "classic liberal" would be best?--The Individual 16:50, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Name change for article

For reasons of consistency as discussed in Talk:Laozi. Hanyu Pinyin is the standard romanization today, cf. Laozi, Zhuangzi ..., it should be used here as well. --Junyi 06:47, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm curious about the decision to place the main article under the Pinyin transliteration. The Wade-Giles is by far the most common in general english usage, and indeed has almost been adopted as a part of the English language. Merriam Webster lists an entry for Tao but none for Dao, furthermore a brief and informal survey of my bookshelf has revealed that all three of my translations of the Laozi have Tao Te Ching written on their spines, and even in the footnotes to the two copies of the Analects I have, both use the Wade-Giles tranlit. w/r/t Tao, even though both texts usually use pinyin for non standard western words. Finally, The text of the article itself uses Confucius rather than Kong Fuzi as would be expected by a strict adherence to pinyin. I understand that pinyin is the preferred method of transliteration, but in many ways, the earlier spelling has become so common in English usage as to make the pinyin usage in this case irregular.

It would be a big task to redirect this article to Tao Te Ching, so if whoever made the initial decision could please speak up with their reasoning, it would be much appreciated. I don't want to do all the redirects and then just have someone swoop in and undo them all.JFQ

If you may refer to Daoism-Taoism Romanization issue, Tao Te Ching is going the way of Daodejing. Either we at wikipedia choose to reflect the old (and slightly wider usage but only for a small demographic group: The non-Chinese westerner familiar or at least having heard of this work), or the obvious current trend and usage by at least one fifth of the world's population.--Huaiwei 20:18, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Huaiwei says that Tao Te Ching has only "slightly wider" usage than Daodejing. Not so. Internet usage is as follows:

• Tao Te Ching - 61,500
• Daodejing - 3,920

—Source: Geoff's Google Duel

With the term Daodejing only about six percent as prevalent as Tao Te Ching, perhaps we should hold off on this change for now. Sunray 22:47, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm also prompted to favor Tao Te Ching because of the fact that the Chinese characters are not actually pronounced exactly the same as D and J characters in English. Rather, the pronunciation is, to my knowledge, best described as an unaspirated T and a voiced CH. apotheon 12:00, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date system

Well, I just wanted to know, Why BCE? What is with "Before Common Era" instead of B.C. "Before Christ". Though I am not a christian myself, this is how it was ever since the calendar was invented by Julius Ceaser, Why change it now?

The BCE/CE system has commonly been used in academic and scholarly works for some time, and is felt by many to be more neutral than BC/AD. As Wikipedia is committed to a neutral point of view, this is an obvious usage for us, though we have a very large number of editors who are, for whatever reason, committed to the older, less neutral system; hence our inability to reach consensus on the matter. Articles are thus written in the system that the first major editor prefers, and generally changed only if there's very good reason and a consensus on the Talk page.

Incidentally, the BC/AD usage is a lot more recent than Julius Caesar; it wasn't used before the 8th century, and only became at all common in modern times. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:01, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, time did pass between before christ was born and when he died, by using BC/AD its stating that the years of his life didnt exist 142.177.42.99 00:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A sage called Laozi?

Lao Tzu never claimed to be a sage. The Tao Te Ching says that its teachings cannot be taught by a sage. Tradition has it that Lao Tzu was a record keeper, so where does this title of "sage" come in? What noteworthy person has ever called Lao Tzu a sage? --O9.59.14.111 16:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

This is a curious argument. First, people aren't described as sages because that's how they describe themselves. Secondly, we don't describe people on the basis of the contents of the Tao Te Ching. Thirdly, Laozi is frequently referred to as a sage (see, for example, [6], [7], [8] (PDF), [9]). it's not clear what you think that "sage" means; it's not a job description like "record keeper". --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:58, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Like I said, do you know any noteworthy person who has ever called Lao Tzu a sage? I wouldn't expect the "Cosmic Internet Academy" to know the difference between someone who records the sayings of others and someone who embodies that wisdom. --O9.59.14.111 03:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm certainly no expert, but doesn't "Lao Tzu" mean "old sage" (or "old master")? See, e.g., [10]. I agree with Mel Etitis that it is irrelevant whether Lao Tzu referred to himself as, or considered himself to be, a "sage." (Only a jackass would refer to himself as a sage, anyway.) dbtfz^talk 03:57, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TTC Chapter 1, 39 & 42

Proposed changes to the Name & Tao Paragraph as follow:

These are the first words of the text in its present form (Waley translates "Tao" as "Way"). The Tao Te Ching does not specifically define what the Tao is. Laozi himself averred, "My words are very easy to understand [...] yet no one under heaven understands them." (chapter 70) Tao in this opening refers to the Absolute, the First Cause or the resultant Singularity (Chapter 39, 42). The closest parallels in the west can be found in the Traditionalist School in the writings of Ananda Coomaraswamy, Rene Guenon and Fritjof Schuon on the Perennial Philosophy started by the philosopher Gottfried Leibniz and on the Primodial traditions. In other religions, this Tao that can not be named would equate to the divinie or God. This passage can be better understood when read with Chapter 42 in which the divisions from Tao into unity, duality and tripartite, and the yin yang complemental attributes as the crux of all creation, is an alternative take on Genesis in the Old Testament. Please comment. Alex 25Feb06

I don't follow all of this (and I find the claim that Leibniz started the school of "philosophy" to which you refer somewhat bewildering, as well as the claim about the relationship with Genesis), but you seem to be making the same mistake that the person in the previous section makes: because the Tao Te Ching doesn't say what "tao" means, neither can we. (It reminds me of one of my favourite lines from an exam script: a Finalist, sitting an exam on Aristotle, wrote: "If Aristotle had intended eudaimonia to mean "happiness" he'd have said so".) --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:00, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Versions of name

The article had this in the summary:

Korean: 도덕경; Vietnamese: Đạo Đức Kinh

The reasion given by the anon who uncommented it 9after I'd comented it out) was that the book was influential in Korea and Vietnam. I don't doubt it; it was also influential in Japan, and has at various times been influential elesewhere too. The point, surely, is that in an English-language encyclopædia we need to give the title in Chinese and the English transliteration(s), but more than that is surely unnecessary. If there were an article on Taoism in Korea or Vietnam, then this might be relevant, but not in an article on the Tao Te Ching in general. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

I vote against the proposal that Tao Te Ching be renamed and moved to Daodejing. Tao Te Ching is widely known in almost any language in existence in the public domain. Changing the name to Daodejing is like reinventing history. There is no need for such a move except for political reasons. Coladie 07:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)