Template talk:Talkheader

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Template:Talkheader page.
Articles for deletion This page was previously nominated for deletion. Consider the following prior discussions before re-nominating:
  • 1: Aug 2005 – 9 Aug 2006

Contents

[edit] Legacy talkheader templates

The above templates duplicate the function of {{talkheader}}, for reasons which I don't think are valid any longer. In some cases, they were created because the {{talkheader}} template at the time had article-space-specific semantics. That has since been corrected, and {{talkheader}} can be used on any talk page, including templates. In other cases, people propsing alternative forms for {{talkheader}} actually created separate templates, which were then used a handful of times. Those have universally fallen into disuse, with this "main" template being the clear popular choice. I think these alternatives are suboptimal: We should try and reach concensus on what the talk header should be, not create a bunch of different templates for everybody's personal whim. I propsose that these "legacy templates" be replaced with use of {{talkheader}}, and then submitted to TfD. I started to do this, and then decided it would be better to check for any dissenting opinions first. So: Objections? Agreement? Suggestions? Comments? --DragonHawk 21:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Easy form for adding a new template

I was bold and added a link to a form that makes it easy to add a new comment to a talk page. This is especially useful for long talk pages and better guarantees the format of the new comment section. I'll be happy to discuss to improve it. I hope its inclusion will be accepted. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 17:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I think the general idea is a good one. I shrunk the wording down a bit, here. One goal with this form is to be as consise a possible -- the more words, the less people read. Then I went a bit further, and moved the link to its own bounding box. My thinking here is that this link is different from the other links in the template (or on the web in general), in that it performs an action, rather than giving information. So it should be set off from the others. That being said, I'm not happy with the way it looks right now. There is too much margin space around the link. I'd also like to style the link so it looks more like your typical user interface button. Unfortunately, my CSS skills are rather meager. I might be able to cookbook something up later, but I don't have time right this minute. On a different note, I'm also wondering about using a direct link to a MediaWiki feature like that. Is it considered poor form? Will it be a maintenance headache down the road? --DragonHawk 15:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I've seen a link to this feature on many a talk page, so if it's a headache here, it will be in many other places as well, but that's what bots are for--if it needs to be revised later, it's not that much trouble. Besides, this external link is really a link to an internal feature--hopefully, this link will be wikified at some point, but until then, I don't see any real problem with using it. As far as turning it into a button, we could add a form to the template, I suppose. Not sure if that's necessary for clarity, though. At any rate, thanks for improving what I started. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 15:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, it sure sounds like there is plenty of precedent for linking to a MediaWiki feature by direct URL, so I guess that answers my question!  :) Thanks again for the contribution, it is definately a good idea. --DragonHawk 22:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I added <div class="plainlinks"> so the link looks a bit better. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.245.24.84 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Spacing

There needs to be an extra linespace placed after the first bullet statement that would appear when used on article talk pages. This would make it similar to the spacing between the other bullets. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 19:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't understand. What's going wrong with the spacing in the bullets? Perhaps you could post example wiki code here so we can see what you're talking about. Also, keep in mind that (by design) HTML renders differently from browser to browser and computer to computer, not to mention Wikipedia style sheet. Layout spacing to be exact can thus be somewhat intractable. --DragonHawk 22:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Just look at it in use on a talk page. There's no extra space between the 1st and 2nd bullet that appears between the other bullets. If you have done this, let me know and we can go from there. Thanks. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 23:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, I have been looking at it all along, and I still don't get what you're talking about.  :-) You might also want to take a screen capture of what you're seeing on your computer with your settings and your browser, and post the image someplace. As noted, the appearance of the web will vary from one user agent to the next. --DragonHawk 04:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
In the latest Mozilla Firefox and IE 6, the problem should have been obvious. The spacing that was just added should fix it though. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 13:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
If it was obvious, I wouldn't be asking these questions, would I?  :-) Could you please post a screen shot or describe exactly what you are referring to, for those of us who don't understand what you're talking about? Note that "It looks bad" is not describing exactly you are referring to. I want to work with you here, but I honestly don't understand. In the current revision, on my computer, comparing article and non-article pages, there is more vertical space above and below the left bullet list (as a consequence of having one less bullet point item on non-talk pages). The list is still centered vertically, which looks good to my eye. Are you saying you would prefer it to be justified to the top or bottom, with more vertical space opposite? Or something else? --DragonHawk 01:38, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
With the new added space (to replace the line breaks I used), the template looks great on article talk pages, but on non-article talk pages, an unattractive extra space at the top appears. Perhaps there's another way to approach this? Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 15:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Was there really a problem before? It looked fine on my system. Unfortunately, if there is a problem, it is best to have the articles talk pages aesthetically pleasing and the non-article ones less so. —Centrx→talk • 01:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, there was a problem before, more pronounced with Firefox than with IE6. But now, the problem is reduced. The template is now aesthetically pleasing (bullets all spaced apart evenly) on article talk pages, but not on project talk pages, for instance. I'm willing to accept this status quo, but it would be nice to engineer it better. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 02:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where do we want to go today?

I think many of the changes made by Centrx starting around here are good. He's right, it isn't a tech manual, and the template does suffer from instruction creep. Minimizing should absolutely be a goal with this. (Perfection is achived when there is nothing left to take away.) The phrasing of "This is not a forum..." is much better. I didn't like that phrasing before and don't know why I didn't see that alternative. I do have a few concerns, though. One is the use of click here. Another is the loss of "Place new comments after existing ones (within topic sections)". The parenthetical could probabbly be dropped, but the base ("Place new comments after existing ones") is distinct from the section headings part -- replying to old threads vs starting new ones. I also reiterate my concerns about having one link that takes an action while the rest are information. I feel that violates the principle of least surprise. It also looses the educational value of the ==Header example==. Finally, a suggestion on method: Given that this template is protected due to high use, perhaps edits should be proposed here first, discussed, and then implemented. Not everyone who wants to contribute to this template is an admin. --DragonHawk 21:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I have now made it semi-protected instead of fully. —Centrx→talk • 00:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. One quick comment before I get some much-needed sleep: Given the high-profile nature of the template, I still think it might be a good idea (for all involved) to discuss proposed changes here first. Not saying it has to happen for every change, just something to think about.  :) I'll response to the rest later. Thanks again. Cheers. --DragonHawk 04:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it is necessary to tell people that they need to put follow-up comments below the others. I have never seen this to a problem on pages that don't have Talkheader and on pages which have all sorts of other problems with anon's ordering sections and signing comments. I think it is pretty obvious that responses go below what they are responding to; it is not prone to the sort of common, reasonable error of putting new talk sections at the top or not knowing how to sign. I don't think the template needs to educate the formatting of sections; the people who need this template are often passers-by or new users, who figure it out soon enough and it is rather clear from looking at a page while editing. What do you propose to do about the link? It seems a useful thing, but maybe get rid of it entirely and just keep the advice that new sections go at the bottom with the header how-to? —Centrx→talk • 00:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I have seen the "new comments before old comments" problem on some pages. Sometimes it's within existing topics; sometimes it's with new topics. I suspect this reflects the posting styles debate for email. At least one other person apparently agreeded, and put it back (I then cleaned it up). It now says "Place new comments after existing ones", which I think is best, as it covers both the within-existing-topic-sections and starting-new-topic cases. • Regarding section headings, you're right. It's obvious when looking at existing wiki text, and this isn't a tech manual. So, agreed, better to lose it. • Regarding the new-topic link: I do think it should stay, as it is very useful. I'd like to come up with some fancy CSS formatting that causes the link to appear different (perhaps more like a UI button), to make it clear that it takes an action. For now, "click here" will have to do. --DragonHawk 01:49, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MediaWiki:Talkpagetext

As you may be aware, this MediaWiki message [ MediaWiki:Talkpagetext --DragonHawk] is transcluded onto all talk pages, but is currently empty. There was some dispute a while ago about whether this template should be deprecated and replaced by that message, but it was agreed that including the whole contents of this template on every page would be too much of a nuisance.

The proposal is alive again, see MediaWiki talk:Talkpagetext#Proposed final version for the suggested version. This version aims to clear up many of the objections that people had to other versions of the message. Comments are welcome. --bainer (talk) 07:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Default?

I think this talkheader should appear as default at the top of every talk page. Can it also Include, Info about how "Click here to start a new discussion topic" is the same as clicking the "+" button and how : or :: ect... need to be put at the start of your own additions to other people's comments? Alan2here 18:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

It is technically possible to have a message presented when editing every talk page. The mechanism is MediaWiki:Talkpagetext. For discusison about this, see the archive for this talk page and MediaWiki talk:Talkpagetext. As yet, there is no clear concensus as to what should be included in said message. It does appear that concensus is that too much instruction is unwanted, but the details of exactly what *is* wanted appears to lack concensus at this time. --DragonHawk 18:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Instruction on new discussion

It appears that some people (particularly Centrx) want this:

* New discussion topics go at the bottom of the page; click here to start a new topic.

while others (particularly me) want this:

* Place new comments after existing ones.
* Click here to start a new discussion topic.

I prefer the later form. The two points are not the same. One deals with starting new topics (threads/sections/etc). The other deals with the ordering of comments (top vs bottom posting). While new topics should go after existing topics, new comments within a topic should also go after existing comments within that topic. I also prefer one point per bullet. People are moe likely to read short bullets; that's why we put them there. The longer bullet is more likely to wrap. I don't want to edit war, so I'd like to see discussion about this. Centrx? Others? --DragonHawk 18:19, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I prefer the second, though I'd change "after" to "below" to make it more clear. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Having two lines makes the template full and the instructions seem long and complicated when they're not. —Centrx→talk • 21:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I find the two-bullet form appears less involved/complicated. By putting it all together in a single bullet, you're making a longer, compound sentence, which takes more effort to read and is more likely to wrap. • You're right that having two bullets will tend to use more vertical space. However, there is a mitigating factor: The longer line is more likely to wrap, and will end up using almost as much vertical space as two bullet points if it does. • All of the other bullet points are shorter than the single-bullet form. The longer line appears uneven with the rest. That "looks funny" to me. That's asthetics and personal preference, of course, but I suspect that's most of what this is about. :) --DragonHawk 00:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
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