Portal talk:Taiwan/Archive 4

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

1 More Mediation
2 Mediation Starting Over
3 wikimedia box
4 Geography portals in Portal:ROC
5 95% text

More Mediation

Allow me to comment, if you will, as an outsider, who has limited knowledge of the ins and outs of chinese politics. When I first came to this portal, I knew that Taiwan belonged to a china, but didn't have a clue which one, or what sorts of international relations they had. However, by coming here, I quickly found out all I needed to know. People coming here would do the same, find out that this portal is only about Taiwan, and go to Portal:ROC if they wanted to. Personally, I would be happy with Taiwan Island, Taiwan Province, or jst pain old Taiwan. I know that Taiwan on it's own has political implications, but so does Taiwan province to some people (pro inderpendance users for example). I think that it is best to wait for the RfC, and see what the community has to say.

Also, Chiang, I am sorry that you feel that people are accusing you of not compromising. I, for one, never meant for any comments that I made here to come across like that. However, I do feel that both you and Nrtm81 don't wish to compromise with one another, even though you have both put forward acceptable suggestions. The problem is that the suggestions are not exceptible to neither of you. This is why I feel it is a must to have community imput on this. Th e Halo (talk) 15:22, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

They should just live with it. Taiwan Province, Republic of China is the correct term for the current island of Taiwan and Penghu. That is the name. We can't satisfy everyone. We should just put forward the correct term. They can be offended by it, but it's their problem. That is the correct term. It is not politicizing anything. We are just using the correct and precise term. -Chiang Kai-shek 16:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Chiang Kai-shek, if you force us to file an RFAR against you as recommended by the arbitrator you could lose a lot more than two characters. You would almost certainly lose your name, which he noted violates Wikipedia policy. You could lose your right to rename the page, and Nrtm81 would be able to name it anything he wants. Ideogram 17:22, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, let's try and keep a cool head here. Chiang, saying 'They should just live with it' isn't helping anyone, is it? The correct term for portal:United Kingdom would be Portal:United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Island. However, no one is going to put that into the search box, because it is not known as that most commonly. This is why wikipedia naming conventions state that articles etc should be known by there most common name. Why not just go for Taiwan (Island)? Seeing as you're not happy with Portal:Taiwan, and Nrtm81 isn't happy with Portal:Taiwan Province, ROC, why not name it something in between? Something that can be accepted by both parties. Th e Halo (talk) 18:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Chiang Kai-shek, you see The Halo admits he didn't know the situation of Taiwan but at least knew something about it being part of "a China". And he even understood the situation just by visiting the portal that Taiwan is ruled by Republic of China as Taiwan Province. So there is definitely no way anyone would think Taiwan is actually a country because 1. There is no flag; 2. the introduction of the portal clearly states Republic of China governs the land.

My intention is to avoid the political mess over Taiwan by leaving the portal name neutrally "Taiwan" without any other words added to the Portal name that would offend people, "Province" offends independence supporters, "ROC" offends PRC supporters, "Taiwan" (in terms of "official country name") offends ROC supporters (but used as an informal reference to ROC is not so offensive). — Nrtm81 05:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

As an American of Chinese descent from Taiwan (not Taiwanese), I have absolutely no problem with the Portal:Taiwan name. Taiwan is the name of the geographic location. It is also politically neutral. I do not see it as pro-Taiwan independence. The fact of the matter is that most of the world refers to Taiwan as Taiwan. Even Chinese people from Taiwan (not Taiwanese) call it Taiwan. Trying to say Taiwan is incorrect and that "Taiwan Province, ROC" is the correct is ridiculous on its face. It is analogous to insisting that Portal:Texas be renamed "Portal:Texas State, USA". While technically accurate, so is Texas, which is a lot less stilted. The user with the clearly political name is injecting political POV into something simple. --John^DO|^{Speak your mind} 00:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Mediation Starting Over

I have archved most of the above talk as it was no longer relevant to the current coversation, and it was getting long. Th e Halo (talk) 11:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay then, let's try starting over. Dispite what has sometimes been said here (mostly out of frustration I think) both of you have contributed positivly to this discussion, and you both have suggested some reasonable compromises. I think that the problem is that neither of you feel any sense of urgency to reach an agreement (I'm sure that if this and Portal:ROC were threated with closure, we would reach a compromise pretty quick, no? ;p ). My point, though, is that if we want to sort this out without the MedCom or ArbCom setting in and just choosing what they think, we need to reach a compromise about what you two think.

My personal favourite compromise is to have 'ROC · (Taiwan)' as I feel that this is non confusing, non political, and gives both parties what they want (ie, a portal called Portal:Taiwan while making sure that everyone knows Taiwan is not a sperate country).

Does you have an thoughts on this? Th e Halo (talk) 11:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

This is really complicated. "Republic of China (Taiwan)" seems to suggest a nation seperate from PRC and mainland China. I need to do more research lol. What I understand from Wikipedia is that:

the Kuomintang party of ROC continues to proclaim itself as the sole legitimate government of China (Source: Republic of China)
the national boundaries of the ROC has not been redrawn since 1949 (so officially the ROC is: see picture) (Same source as above)
Official foreign relations with 25 nations do not recognize the PRC and recognize ROC as the sole legitimate government of China (map still applies).

Therefore, "Republic of China (Taiwan)" is inaccurate, unless it's "Republic of China (Taipei)". However, "Taiwan (Republic of China)" is more accurate but:

All major countries (180+ nations) do not recognize the ROC anymore (due to PRC's "one China policy")
ROC has no representation at the United Nations (replaced by PRC in 1971; Source: China and the United Nations)
The status of ROC and its future is uncertain, only survives due to status quo and many "groups" (I dunno what "groups" refer to specifically) unofficially treat Taiwan as a state. (which is against ROC's official stance that it is the government of China) (Source: political status of Taiwan)

This is why I'm firmly against tagging Portal:Taiwan with anything else. As long as the portal makes it clear that Taiwan is currently under the jurisdiction of the Republic of China and not under the jurisdiction of the PRC, the political mess that arises due to the ambiguous status of the ROC can be avoided. — Nrtm81 18:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The naming of an article/portal pretty much defines its content. Tagging ROC to the name draws in critics about ROC's legitimacy and critics of Taiwan seperatism from China. Taiwan as the name does not suggest anything except Taiwan (the place). If nothing was mentioned or stated about the government that has jurisdiction over Taiwan, that would make the portal ambiguous (is it a country? is it part of PRC?) however, there is no ambiguity about Taiwan's current status as being governed by ROC because this fact is stated in the portal introduction section. I keep repeating myself :-) Am I not making any sense? — Nrtm81 18:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I do hear what you're saying. I also agree that the situation about ROC and PRC both claiming Taiwan is a difficult one, and one that I was not perviousy aware of. I did a little bit of research, and looked at both the Taiwan & Taiwan Province article. Well, here goes.

I understand that you don't like ROC (Taiwan) because of it's links to The PRC, and you don't like Taiwan Island ~~(or Taiwan (Island))~~ because Taiwan contains another island, whoes name escapes me right now. Now, Chiang doesn't like the name Portal:Taiwan because of the ambiguation it creates, and it's possible political ties to the inderpendance movement. Therefore, may we go back to Portal:Taiwan Province. I suggest this because:

A) It is the current, correct name for Taiwan

B) It stops any chance stance of political agenda (non-inderpendance, but not pro-ROC)

and

C) Both the ROC and the PRC claim it as their Province, so there will be no dispute there.

I probably should have waited for Chiang to reply, but I thought I would toss this out there, and see if anyone liked it ;) Th e Halo (talk) 19:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Nrtm81 accepted "Taiwan (island)", but Chiang Kai-shek rejected it. Ideogram 19:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Struck through "Taiwan (island)". Must have missed that when re-reading the notes! Th e Halo (talk) 19:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

With this in mind, may I then ask why Taiwan (island) was accepted, but Taiwan Island wasn't? As I have said some where (This has been going on so long I forget where) that all the brackets do is to change the way one would say it out loud (Taiwan, Island instead of Taiwan Island). I also remember one of the reasons for rejecting Taiwan Island being, as I have said above, that Taiwan also includes another island. How come that isn't an issue when it is Taiwan (island)? Or am I missing something? Th e Halo (talk) 19:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

But, of course, the question over Taiwan Island (Taiwan (island)) need only be adressed if Taiwan Province is not accepted. Th e Halo (talk) 19:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Formosa & the Pescadores

lolz, I was willing to accept "Taiwan (island)" despite it being pronounced the same as "Taiwan Island" because in print the brackets is disambiguation to clarify that it's not "Taiwan (country)", "Taiwan (Province, PRC)", "Taiwan (Province, ROC)". OK, maybe I'm being too stubborn, but "Taiwan (island)" or "Taiwan Island" just doesn't look nice and it also seems to suggest only Taiwan and not inclusive of the "other island". By the way the other island is called the "Pescadores". It's easy to remember if you come across historical text refering to Taiwan as "Formosa" and the nearby islands "Pescadores". The "Pescadores" are a group of small islands (archipelago) just west of Taiwan. In Chinese it's called "Penghu". It's also the archipelago that the Taiwanese (actually Chinese) ancestors settled in around 1100s. Also the Dutch first occupied the Pescadores to open trade with China and Japan before the Ming court told them to move to Taiwan. The Pescadores were then ceded over to Japan along with Formosa in 1895 in the Treaty of Shimonoseki. Japan was to rule Taiwan and the Pescadores for 50 years before it was ~~returned to ROC~~ (correction: returned to China which was then the ROC) under the terms of Japan's surrender in World War II in 1945. Then the whole mess of ROC's situation began when it lost control of mainland China to the communists in 1949. And ever since the ROC hasn't been able to recover mainland China. Pretty much impossible now as the PRC has nukes and a large army that's modernizing itself. Enjoying the history lesson? :-P

I better not keep considering things. My stance is Portal:Taiwan, no compromise on the name of the portal. Seriously, I personally believe it's just causing too much problems to define the portal name in terms of jurisdiction (political problem). I don't understand why Chiang Kai-shek continues to think that "Taiwan" as the portal name implies "independence". Is it really not enough that the portal introduction box clears up the situation of Taiwan? Already says it's ruled by the ROC government and that there is a political status issue over Taiwan. Is it still ambiguous? Will be back tomorrow. — Nrtm81 20:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, thanks for the history lesson. While it might not help us with this problem, it certainy was interesting! Secondly, and more seriously, you have not stated wheather or not Portal:Taiwan Province is acceptable, seeing as it is the offical name of the place, and it is not political. You also say, 'My stance is Portal:Taiwan, no compromise on the name of the portal'. Then, may I ask, what was the point of bringing this to mediators? What can I do, as a mediator, if you are not willin to join in the process? I know that under my comments is going to be something about you agreeing to lots of compromises, but Chiang wouldn't, but the point is that there is still room for compromise, if you would just be willing. How do we know that Chiang won't come on here and say 'Yeah, actually, Taiwan (island) is fine, let's call it that!'? By having no compromise, a peaceful ending to this meditation, one that both parties are happy with, is hopeless. Th e Halo (talk) 20:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it was my mistake to ask for mediation since I didn't want a change in the portal name. I was just trying to find a way to stop the "Portal moves" and try to persuade people that it's about Taiwan, not ROC. "Taiwan" doesn't suggest anything. People say "I'm from Taiwan" not "I'm from Taiwan Province", "I'm from Taiwan, Republic of China", "I'm from Taiwan Island". As I understand it, a portal on ROC is just too complicated due to controversy in itself (People in ROC even contradict each other: "We are ROC Taiwan" vs. "We are ROC China") So many articles dealing with Taiwan leave out this fighting over what Taiwan is but do acknowledge that ROC has jurisdiction (though ROC itself has become ambiguous since 1949). When I say this it's mostly on the non-political topics.

Even "Taiwan Island" is unnecessary because the content's first sentence states "Taiwan is an island" and people don't say "I visited Taiwan island last year", they say "I visited Taiwan last year". When they say Taiwan, it's an informal term refering to the officially named Republic of China (which officially is the whole China). Is this explanation not clear enough? "Taiwan Province" is not a neutral name "I visited Taiwan Province last year" (oh! PRC? ROC?), and "Taiwan Province, Republic of China" also is long-winded. This portal is supposed to introduce people to Taiwan and everything Taiwan-related (including ROC rule; which cannot be said of ROC which was never under Japan's complete dominance for 50 years) — Nrtm81 08:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think we should wait for Chiang Kai-shek to return before continuing this. Ideogram 09:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok basically, Nrtm81 was unwiling to compromise in the first place. The call for mediation was his tactic to simply "convince" me and everyone else that Portal:Taiwan is the correct and only way to name the portal, period. No compromise, Nada, so just shut up you guys. That was really stupid of him to just call this mediation then. Anyways, I have been accepting of several compromises, however, Nrtm81 doesn't want to compromise, so I guess that isn't going to work. I agree with the Halo in saying that Taiwan Province should be the portal name. Nrtm81 says that Taiwan doesn't irk people and that it is neutral. Well, it does annoy people and it is not neutral. Actually, you can say that none of the names are neutral. So we should then use the correct, current, and official name: Taiwan Province. It doesn't matter if you're talking about the Dutch rule or the Ming rule. That area of history still occured in Taiwan Province although it wasn't called that, back in those days. So it is stil OKAY! I have agreed to Taiwan Island; Taiwan Province, Republic of China; Taiwan, Republic of China, and the list goes on. But Nrtm81 just won't budge. He never intended to budge in the first place.

Exactly, why did you agree to Taiwan (island), and not Taiwan Island. The first one still implies that it talks only about Taiwan the island, and not the Pesacadores. See, is it not another plot for Taiwan independence? I know you are green Nrtm81. You can still deny it all you want, but I see that you're green. -Chiang Kai-shek 14:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Just accidentally stumbled on this page and as someone living in Taiwan, I couldn't help making a comment. The geographical area that is commonly known as Taiwan consists of three provincial level jurisdictions under ROC law: Taiwan Province, Taipei City, and Kaohsiung City. At least 15% (most likely more) of the inhabitants of the geographical area commonly known as Taiwan live in either Taipei City or Kaohsiung City. So to name this portal "Taiwan Province" would leave out Taipei City and Kaohsiung City, the largest and second largest cities, respectively, in the geographical area that is commonly known as Taiwan. If "Taiwan Province" is adapted, then there still wouldn't be a portal representing the geographical area commonly known as Taiwan. Under PRC law, this issue is much simpler, Taipei City and Kaohsiung City are both cities within the Taiwan Province. However, since it is the ROC government and not PRC government that currently has actual control over the geographical area commonly known as Taiwan, I would think the ROC law/definition should be used. Just my 2 cents. --Shawnlin 14:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughts Shawnlin. True that ROC law applies to Taiwan and that is the case when clicking on Category links in the portal. In terms of political topics such as government, law, military, elections, etc are under the correct term of "ROC" and not Taiwan as is evidenced by "Politics of the Republic of China on Taiwan" whereas all the other categories are non-political so Culture, Economy, Education, Geography, History, People, Sports, and Transportation are concerned with Taiwan. — Nrtm81 16:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, to start with, Chaing Kai-shek, I will give you your first offical warning for violating WP:Civil. Please remember to follow the rules of wikipedia on this, and every page.

However, on to more pressing matters. It has become clear to me that this mediation is not going to work. The problem is that there is a massive political and cultural devide that one users on one website just can't overcome. I have enjoyed trying to help you two sort this out, and I would gladly come back and try mediation again, if that is what was wanted, but this mediation should now be closed. Further more, I would be happy to give all of my help and notes on this case to the Mediation Committee, which is where I believe that this case should go if the ArbCom listing fails.

I wish to remind both of you to follow wikipedia rules if you are still going to have a debate on this page, but I would recomend that you take this issue to a higher wikipedian power. Yours, with best wishes for the future, Th e Halo (talk) 14:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks The Halo and Ideogram for your time and apologies for dragging you both into a pointless mediation. Wikipedia or Wikimedia has a policy of not determining page names so taking this dispute to a higher power is not possible. Already ArbCom, which is the highest and last resort medium has rejected determining the page name. I can only hope Chiang Kai-shek can understand and accept that this portal page is about Taiwan and there is no intention to portray Taiwan as a seperate nation.

By the way, Chiang Kai-shek, please visit Portal:China. I hope that portal can clear up any doubts you have concerning the Taiwan portal. Love you! :-) — Nrtm81 16:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Chiang, have you noticed that the website of the (China) Kuomintang is on a third level domain under the .TW ccTLD (http://www.kmt.org.tw/). Since you are a party member, maybe you can suggest the (China) Kuomintang to move its central party managed website out of the .TW ccTLD? Otherwise, the web publishing division of the party would be "green", wouldn't it? While you are at it, maybe you should also protest that the official ROC presidential office website currently at "http://www.president.gov.tw/" should be moved out of the .TW ccTLD too. How can the ROC presidential office website be under the .TW ccTLD????? --Shawnlin 15:14, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

wikimedia box

Why did you remove the wikimedia box? There are some useful links there. Ideogram 11:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh sorry ^^; Well you put it back :-) — Nrtm81 12:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Geography portals in Portal:ROC

Geography portals don't belong on a Political portal. And, most of them are redlinks. I recommend you move the valid ones to Portal:Taiwan. Ideogram 12:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Roger. — Nrtm81 12:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)