Talk:Tachanun

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I have rewritten this article, which looked rather messy. Specifically, I have removed a long paragraph with many direct quotes from the Rambam that seems to suggest that some Yemenites follow a particular custom based on these quotes. I will leave a message with the original author explaining why I think this material should be revised before reinclusion. JFW | T@lk 19:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand. I provided the sources in the Mishneh Torah which clearly indicate that during Rambam's lifetime (roughly 1100 CE - 1200 CE) the majority of Jews did Tahhanun with their faces on the ground -- at the least this could be included somehow into the history section. The only way these same quotes would suggest that Yemenites follow(ed) such a practice is by the fact that traditionally Yemenite Jews ruled more or less according to the Mishneh Torah... of course, traditionally, this was the practice of many non-European countries. Unfortunately way too many Talmudic practices preserved uniquely among the Yemenite Jews were cast aside upon their coming to Israel - for various reasons. The number one reason is without a doubt the fact that they were such a minority and then they were doing certain originally Jewish practices that only they were doing and practically no one else -- practices which happen to be similar to Muslim practices (high levels of modesty and prostration during Tahhanun for example). Forget the fact that many European Jewish women covered their hair in exactly the same fashion as Orthodox Christian and Catholics at the time did. ANYWAYS, in short -- assuming you are even able to get a hold of these books if you live outside of Israel, you can see in very clear [HEBREW] writing that prostration during Tahhanun was the mainstream Yemenite practice up until around 50 years ago (though I know personally for a fact that a number of Yemenites still prostrate -- though only in private or with likeminded individuals), in such books as Rabbi Yosef Qafehh's commentary to the Mishneh Torah - see his commentary to chapter 5 of Hilkhoth Tefila in Sefer Ahavah. There he says very explicitly that the practice in Yemen was prostration in the manner of the Geonim [such as how Rav Saadiah Gaon explains in his siddur]... and there he explains how. It basically consists of sitting on the ground simi-indian style..... then leaning over to the point that one's face touches the ground. And what about the references given on the website: http://www.chayas.com/qidah.htm; The Chisdai Letters: Rabbi Hasdai ibn Shaprut (c. 915-c.990) http://isfsp.org/sages/letter-hasdai.html (do word search for "bow") and Hoter ben Shlomo (Mansur bin Sulayman alGhamari) YEMEN - 1400s?? Additionally, in the book Even Sepir (page 68) you will find the testimony of a European born Jewish traveller who visited Yemen in the year of 1859. He writes that the practice of the Yemenite Jews he visited was full body-length prostration... "they fall on their faces, after the Prayer (Amida), stretching out their arms and leggs, like the custom of Ashkenazim on Yom Kippur," (translation mine). This book is in Hebrew and one can buy at at the book store 'Pinat haSefer' on Mea Shaarim in Jerusalem. As one would expect, most books about Yemenite Jews are in Hebrew. OOh oh, now I remember a reference in English. In the main English translation of the Talmud aside from Artscroll (for got the name of this translation.. but it's well known) when it comes to the section in the Gemara about prostration during Tahhanun -- which is exactly how the Talmud explains to do it -- the commentary on the bottom says clearly that this is the practice of Yemenite Jews. Apparently more of them were still doing it at the time of the publication of this translation. I personally have only about 3 times seen Dor Daim Yemenite Jews prostrate publically... though I have seen more cases were non-Yemenite students of the Rambam prostrated in public. I hope you look this up... because otherwise I don't know what you want me to do to provide evidence/basis for what I'm saying other than to see it yourself. I personally feel that I have given much more reference than is required for the text that many other people have published. I apologize for not being familiar enough with Wikipedia to know how to properly use it... This is due to my very limited access to the internet and the limited amount of time I have when on it... For example, I didn't know how to respond to the message you sent. All the best. Yosef Omedyashar 23:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's also worth noting that towards the end of the well known book Duties of the Heart it states in Hebrew (less clearly in the translations) how to do Tahhanunim at night, including prostrating. There are, in fact, many references to the practice of actual prostration throughout Jewish writings... A very deep text written about the topic, one which is unfortunately equally difficult to get one's hands on, is the volume of the book HaMaspeek l'Ovdei HaShem by Rav Avraham son of Rambam where he writes around 100 pages on the practice and significance of prostration. .. as a side note, please don't think I'm obsessed with prostration, lol. I just happen to love HaShem and very much appreciate the gift of Torah He gave us... consequently it pains me that with so many deeply rooted Jewish practices that are fading into the past - already practically unknown even to most "ultra Orthodox" that so many Jews are all so eager to jump-start new practices, customs, and movements ------ when there is so much Talmudicly based substance that seems to have been left on the shelves to be forgotten. Omedyashar 23:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Something should be mentioned about the fact that Ashkenazim traditionally do nafilat apayim with their faces actually on the ground during certain sections of the Amidah of Rosh haShana and Yom Kippur. Ethiopian Jews also traditionally prostrate - during their holiday of Sigd specifically. http://www.pbase.com/yalop/image/23648350 Omedyashar 23:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Reference to Ashkenazi act of prostration during Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur]]: see almost any Ashkenazi High Holiday Prayer book (Makhzor) under the section of Mussaf - Avoda as well as in 'Rite and Reason' (page 528 &529 with references to Rema siman Tav-Resh-Caf-Alaf sayid Dalet, etc..) Omedyashar 16:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)