Talk:T-34

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The following users are active in maintaining and improving this article. If you have questions regarding verification and sources, they may be able to help: Michael Z. (talk • contribs • email)

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.

Previous discussions:

Archive 1 (2003-10-06 to 2005-09-18)

Awesome article · post-war T-34 engagements · Commander as loader · Christie Suspension ? · Contradictory? · Combat Effectiveness · Eh? · Importance? · T-34/85's reduced speed · Units (00 mm, 00mm, 00-mm)

Archive 2 (2005-10-08 and 2006-01-27)

Soviet vs. German war industry · Nomenclature · Firepower · Model 1942 or 1943 · "MDSh smoke canisters on the hull rear" · comments · Best tank Quotes · Some minor corrections · Peer review · Quotations · Production Numbers · Footnotes · Combat service · Importance · Peer review to-do list · Best tank · First sentence is wordy · New article: "T-34 variants" · Radios

Archive 3 (2006-01-28 to 2006-07-31)

T-34s as "liberation from nazism" monuments all around E-C Europe and their defacing in the 80-90s · Used at Lang Vei? · Identify version please · Military Discovery Channel's Ranking · Bedsprings · Importance section · Drive for Featured Article quality · NPOV · Successor · T-34 is a Featured Article · Hitler's intelligence

Archive 4 (next to start)

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Contents 1 Citation needed for driver's visibility 2 World's Best Tank 3 Standing errors 4 Model naming 5 T-43 tank 6 Tank as a symbol 7 Use of quotations 8 Recent anonymous edits 9 Protest T-34 in Budapest, Hungary 10 Western inferiority complex?

[edit] Citation needed for driver's visibility

I'm still not able to find a reference to support the following:

Visibility from the driver's seat was also poor, with some drivers reporting that their optics were so bad they kept their hatch open slightly even in combat. Tactically, this affected the driver's ability to use terrain to their advantage, since they could not see folds in the ground as well, or have as wide a range of vision as in some other tanks.

Can someone find anything in a book evaluating or comparing the T-34 driver's visibility at all? If nothing comes up, I'll remove the paragraph. —Michael Z. 2006-08-14 17:30 Z

[edit] World's Best Tank

RE: "It was the world's best tank when the Soviet Union entered the Second World War", is this really a NPOV?

Please read over #NPOV, above. WP:NPOV states that NPOV means articles "must represent all significant views fairly and without bias". Barring the citation of a single verifiable, reliable expert's view contradicting the statement, it does represent a neutral point of view. —Michael Z. 2006-09-19 02:01 Z

This is debateable. This seems to state that it was the single best tank in the world at the time, which is untrue, as the Germans had several tanks in development that would soon reach field status, such as the Tiger. The Tiger was superior to the T-34. By the end of the war, however, it was no longer the world's best.--TelevisedRevolution 03:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the Tiger tank didn't exist at the beginning of World War II (and may never have seen the light if not for the existence of the T-34). So the point is not debatable by the merit of that argument.

If you can find a source that calls the Tiger a better tank than the T-34, perhaps we could cite it in this article, although it did have several major shortcomings compared to the T-34. The T-34's technical superiority was surpassed part way through the war, but it did set the trend for everything that followed. And one might argue that an improved T-34-84 which could be produced at six times the rate of a Panther was still better overall, at least from the point of view of winning a war. Zaloga et al (1997:6) writes "although the T-34 was not equal on a one-to-one basis with the best German tanks, its durability, economy and suitability to the Soviet style of war made it a far more effective weapon than any of its German rivals. Its only real rival to the title of 'the best tank of World War 2' would be the American Sherman, for many of the same reasons." —Michael Z. 2006-10-17 06:38 Z

It was in fact the best tank in the war because it was even able to knock down Tigers - Germans used tank formations in form of a triangle and at the top of it was the Tiger.But two T 34 were pushed right towards the Tiger - they were fast and could knock it in the rear or the back where the armour was very thin.Even if one of the tanks was destroyed by the Tiger the other one managed to perform the mission as the turret and reloading were slow.

Here is an extract from one of the references provided by this wiki article: [1] (Retrieved 23 October, 2006)

It is evident from the extract that the claim for the T-34 to have been the best when the Germans invaded Russia (if that's what you mean by "outbreak of war" is somewhat doubtful. But perhaps I am wrong.

"At the end of August, [1942] a conference was held at Factory #112. It was attended by the People's Commissar for Tank Industry V.A.Malyshev, Commander of Tank and Mechanized Troops of the Red Army Ya.N.Fedorenko, and ranking members from the People's Commissariat for Armaments. In his introduction, V.A.Malyshev noted that the victory at the Battle of Kursk cost the Red Army a high price:

"Enemy tanks opened fire on ours at distances of up to 1,500 metres, while our 76 mm tank guns could destroy "Tigers" and "Panthers" at distances of only 500-600 metres. Imagine the enemy has a kilometer and a half in his hands, while we have only half a kilometer. A more powerful gun needs to be put into the T-34 quickly."

"In actual fact, the situation was significantly worse than Malyshev painted it, though attempts to correct the situation had been undertaken at the beginning of 1943"

Gk1956 02:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

That would be August 1943, after the Battle of Kursk.

In the invasion of June 1941, there were no Tigers or Panthers, only Panzer II and III tanks armed with 37mm and 50mm antitank guns whose rounds literally bounced off of the T-34's front armour, and Panzer IV with short 75mm guns for antipersonnel fire. The only really effective German antitank weapon was the towed 88mm antiaircraft gun. The T-34's 76.2mm was effective against all of these.

I've changed the intro sentence to read "It was the world's best tank when the Soviet Union entered the Second World War, and although its armour and armament were surpassed by later WWII tanks, it is credited as the war's most effective, efficient and influential design." This gives a bit better idea of the context (Tiger entered service in late 1942, Panther in mid-'43). —Michael Z. 2006-10-23 03:46 Z

Thanks, that answwers the question adequately. On a different note, from a military history POV, how is it explained that the Germans were able to make such rapid and unhindered progress in 1941, if the Soviet armour was so superior to anything the Germans could throw at it? Gk1956 15:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that is mostly answered here and in the Eastern Front article. The Soviets also had something like 20,000-to-3,350 advantage in armoured vehicles. Although only 1,475 were new T-34s and KV-1s, and they were thinly distributed, most of the remainder were T-26 and BT tanks which were a good match for German equipmen. The Soviets were hindered by all of the following, usually to a very severe degree:

• Poor Soviet tank training, especially on new models, and almost complete lack of gunnery and combined-arms training
• Absence of infantry carriers making tank-infantry co-operation difficult, apart from the desperate tank desant tactic
• Two-man turrets, requiring the commander to locate targets, aim, and fire
• Poor mechanical state of older tanks and teething problems with new tanks, absence of tank transporters
• Poor Soviet resupply, especially the lack of replacement parts and recovery vehicles (factory managers had been responsible with their lives to keep up productivity figures: who would bother to make extra parts?)
• Serious lack of radios, generally only installed in company commanders' and sometimes platoon commanders' tanks
• General incompetence of the middle officer ranks, which had lost something like 40,000 during the Great Purge—the losses were slanted towards competent officers who weren't afraid to speak up, and favoured political brown-nosers who didn't understand command or tactics
• Poor Soviet strategy, including deploying on a very narrow front with no reserve
• Poor morale and mass desertion
• Recent organization of the mechanized corps, which had started forming in 1940–41
• Because of the lack of trained officers, the mechanized corps were huge organizations, difficult to coordinate, and to equip and supply up to their nominal strength, despite the huge equipment inventory

Because of several of these factors, Soviet tank units fought in choreographed set-piece fashion, as they had trained. They generally didn't use the ground to their advantage at all, and had great difficulty responding to battlefield situations, or even locating the enemy.

In the few places where Soviet units equipped with the new tanks stood up and fought, they did quite well. German tankers were shocked at the performance of the untermensch tanks which unit-level intelligence hadn't known about, and infantry became prone to panic when confronted with the seemingly invulnerable heavy KV tanks. But the strategic problems made it completely impossible for the Soviets to exploit these successes.

As the war progressed, the Soviets improved their showing in almost every one of these areas. —Michael Z. 2006-10-23 19:57 Z

[edit] Standing errors

was intended to replace both the BT tank and the T-26 infantry tank in service - wrong. There was another tank to replace T-26 in service, called T-50, in prototype - T-126. Also see the discussions in Head Military Council (Glavnyj Voennyj Sovet) about the types of tanks needed for armored force ("Zimnyaya vojna". Rabota nad oshibkami... ISBN 5-9438-1134-6, pp.85-89, 293-296). The infantry support type tank was thought still be necessary. [√ this summary is OK, details are in the article, and I added a note about the T-50 infantry tank. —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 20:18 Z]

engineer Alexander Morozov's new model V-2 engine - wrong. Morozov had nothing to do with V-2 engine. See Neizvestnyj T-34, p.23. There were another people who gave birth to this engine - Chelpan, Trashutin, Chupahin... [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-27 02:51 Z]

It also had the convertible drive of the BT tank - wrong. It had convertible drive, but of quite different type. For example, BT had steering wheels, A-20 - not. BT had 8x2 wheel formula, A-20 had 8x6. (see M.Pavlov, I.Pavlov, I.Zheltov Tanki BT, part 3, Armada No 17, p.13). [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 04:38 Z]

and allowed tanks to travel as fast as 100 km/h on roads - wrong. The maximum speed (on wheels) of BT tanks was 86 km/h on road. That was BT-7M. (ibid., p.48) [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 04:38 Z]

The second prototype, designated A-30 but shortly renamed T-32 - wrong. The prototype was designated A-32 from the very begining (Neizvestnyj T-34, p. 13), and never existed as T-32. as soon as it went to production, it got the designation T-34 (factory designation - A-34) (ibid.., p.17). [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-27 20:34 Z]

The first production tanks were completed in September 1940, completely replacing the production of the T-26, BT, and the multi-turreted T-28 medium tank - wrong. First, T-34 went in production on KhPZ, while T-26 and T-28 were produced on another plants. Second, T-26 was in production till 1941. And third, that was KV who replaced T-28 on Kirov plant, not T-34 (multiple sources). [√ updated article: T-34 replaced other tanks at KhPZ. —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 20:04 Z]

In late 1943 a second major version began production, the T-34-85 - wrong. Production of T-34/85 started in january 1944 (Neizvestnyj T-34, p.60) [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-27 21:05 Z]

To be continued. Fat yankey 04:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Some quick responses; I'll have to check my sources to address the remainder.

Regarding T-34 replacing infantry tanks and fast tanks: it should be clarified who intended what. Conservative elements in the army, notably Marshall Kulik, still felt that tanks were a fad, and were keen on the old infantry/cavalry distinction. The tank's designer, Koshkin, intended the T-34 as a 'universal tank' to replace both, and there was some support for him, as he was allowed to develop it alongside, and then instead of the A-20 fast tank. The T-50 did enter production at factories which weren't capable of building the larger medium tanks, but my impression is that it wasn't strictly used according to the old infantry tank doctrine, and production of light tanks in general were phased out, largely to be replaced in service by the T-34 and SU-76. Anyway, the total production of 63 of these vehicles doesn't represent a replacement for 12,000 T-26 infantry tanks, nor does it indicate any real commitment to the infantry tank concept.

Regarding convertible drive, this wasn't intended to mean that the A-20 had the identical mechanism, but that it had a convertible drive, like the BT tanks did. Needs clarification.

Zaloga lists the road speed of the BT-2 as 100 km/hr; subsequent models weren't as fast. Do you have contradicting sources?

Regarding T-34-85 introduction, it's quite possible that the production line started at the end of 1943, and the first tank was completed in January 1944—I have to check the sources.

According to Zaloga (1996), T-34-85 production was approved on 1943-12-15 and ordered to begin by February 1944. The "Model 1943" tanks with D-5S gun were produced in February-March, and the ZiS-S-53 started to be mounted in March. They also started to be issued to troops and saw their first action in March 1944.  —Michael Z. 2006-09-27 21:05 Z

Again, thanks for the detailed critique. Don't stop. More to follow.  —Michael Z. 2006-09-22 22:15 Z

I'll create separate discussion section to cover "intention" subject. It's complicated, and needs to be explained thoroughly. Other topics:

The documented maximum road speed (on wheels) for BT-2 was 72 km/h. That's quite an example of Zaloga's "competence". I don't know for sure, but it looks like Zaloga had found his number somewhere in Christie files, and then "deduced" BT-2 speed, given that BT-2 was a copy of one of the Christie tanks. But he never told his audience, that this is his hypothesis, not a fact.

You most likely know, that USSR had so called "planned economy". T-34-85 were included in production plan of January 1944, not before.

Fat yankey 17:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe the T-50 was intended to replace the T-26, but the problems with its unique powerplant restricted production to 60 or so examples. Source is battlefield.ru. DMorpheus 15:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

It also turned out to be nearly as expensive as the T-34, but with inferior armament, armour, and off-road mobility. So the T-34 (along with the SU-76, which was cheaply manufactured in light industry) ended up replacing the infantry tank.

Regarding the intent of the T-34: I think it's clear that Koshkin was assigned to build a new fast (cavalry) tank. He put forward a superior design, which he intended to replace both BTs and infantry tanks. He managed to convince enough important people that this may be right, and it turned out to be, so that from 1940–42 the combined production of BTs and infantry tanks went from 2,255 to 48 to 15, while T-34 medium tanks ramped up from 115 to 2,800 to 12,553.

The line in the introduction is a summary of the whole story, and the details are laid out sufficiently clearly in the article. I'll add a mention of the dead-end T-50 project, so nothing will be left out. —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 18:48 Z

Can you cite a source for the BT-2's speed?

Regarding the planned economy, that's pretty vague. The factories would have to first design the production process, then retool their lines for the new tank's production, then start building new-model tanks before a tank could roll off the line. Do you think they managed to do all of this and actually build a production tank in under a month? Or wouldn't a responsible factory manager, who valued his own skin, start this process in advance, if circumstances allowed, so as to bring the first tanks off the line as soon as possible after they were authorized? Anyway, we're splitting hairs here—I'll just reword the text of the article. —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 04:12 Z

The first production tanks were completed in September 1940, completely replacing the production of the T-26, BT, and the multi-turreted T-28 medium tank—my memory is vague, but I think that may have meant that it replaced production of those tanks or components at the KhPZ. Didn't production at the STZ start later? —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 05:19 Z

Leningrad Kirov Factory No.185 made the original L-11 gun - there is a lot of confusion here. Actually, there were TWO Kirov factory in Leningrad. One was THE Kirov Factory, former Putilov works. This one had no number. The other one was former Experimental Design Department of design bureau of No 174 Factory, which became independent Experimental Mechanical Factory No 185 in 1933. It also had been named after Kirov. No 185 factory made a lot of russian experimental tanks, e.g. T-29 or T-100. In russian they spell differently - the former "Kirovskij zavod", the latter "zavod imeni Kirova". The Kirov factory WITHOUT the number made L-11 gun. [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 04:50 Z]

and later at Krasnoye Sormovo Factory No. 112 in Gorki - inconsistency. Before the war, there were only two designated plants for T-34 production - KhPZ and STZ. After the war started, others jojned. Sormovo was among those, which joined later, while in the text it mentioned side by side with STZ and KhPZ. [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 06:40 Z]

Due to a shortage of new V-2 engines, many tanks in the initial 1940 production run were equipped with the BT tank's inferior MT-17 aircraft engine - wrong. This happened in 1941, when supply of V-2 dropped because of evacuation of No75 plant (Neizvestnyj T-34, pp.40-42) [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 06:40 Z]

The L-11 gun did not live up to expectations, so the Grabin design bureau at Gorki Factory No. 92 designed a superior F-34 76.2mm gun. No bureaucrat would approve production, so Gorki and KhPZ started producing the gun anyway; official permission only came from Stalin's State Defence Committee after troops in the field sent back praise for the gun's performance - lol! Grabin tells a lot of fairy tales in his memoires, but this particular fairy tale was told about ANOTHER gun - 76.2 mm divisional field gun ZIS-3 (see Grabin, Oruzhie pobedy, pp.500-542). F-34 was properly accepted by "bureaucrats", and starting April 1941 all T-34 went out of the factory with F-34 gun (Neizvestnyj T-34, pp.29-30).

In 1942, a new turret design derived from the abandoned T-34M project started to be built - wrong. The new turret, though somewhat similar in shape to T-34M turret, had quite different design. T-34M had three-man turret, with commander's cupola and 1600 mm turret ring (like T-35-85 later), while 1942-turret, "gajka" ("a nut", nicknamed because looked like hexagonal nut), was two man turret with 1450 mm turret ring and initially witout cupola.Fat yankey 17:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't the Putilov/Kirovskiy works also called Factory no. 100? Only after evacuation.

From my reading, I think KhPZ started production in September 1940, STZ in early 1941, and Krasnoye Sormovo just after the war started, in July 1941. These comprise the initial production of tanks, before the evacuation was ordered, so they are mentioned here. Two paragraphs later, all the changes due to the evacuation and loss of STZ are recounted. I see from reading battlefield.ru, that it was Krasnoye Sormovo's initial production that used the MT-17 petrol engine.

Was the form of the hexagonal turret based on the T-34M's design, or developed independently. They both came from the same design bureau, so there must have been some relationship, right—improved armour layout, space efficiency, or production design? Needs clarification.

Yikes—that represents a lot of revisions. Since many of them contradict the more easily-verifiable Zaloga and other English-language works currently available, please be very careful to verify and cite very specifically facts from the Russian-language sources. Do you consider battlefield.ru to be reliable about details?

I've updated the article to address a couple of the remarks so far (checked-off, above). Please review my edits. —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 06:40 Z

According to Zaloga (1994:8), the adaptation of the F-32 to the T-34 tank started in spring 1940 and resulted in the F-34 gun by the end of 1940. The F-34 started to be built alongside the L-11 in January 1941 even though no one would approve it, and began to appear on tanks in February. He writes that the T-34 model 1941 was not officially approved until the summer of 1941—after the outbreak of the war.

Battlefield.ru writes that the L-11 was cancelled in 1939 [1940], the F-34 was tested on tanks in October 1939 [1940] and November 1940, and as a result was recommended for service.[2] [Those dates must be typos, intended to mean 1940, because they disagree with another, Russian-only page at battlefield.ru.[3]] My poor reading of the Russian-language page seems to indicate that the F-34 was only approved for the T-34 tank in July 1941 (this agrees with Zaloga), but that contrary to Grabin, the gun's earlier production had been officially allowed.

Would you check if any of these dates match what's written in Neizvestnyj T-34? —Michael Z. 2006-09-27 21:39 Z

[edit] Model naming

This has been discussed before at talk:T-34/Archive02#Model 1942 or 1943. Apparently official Soviet names from WWII don't correspond exactly to the prevailing model names like T-34 Model 1942, but we have yet to see a reference confirming. Zaloga writes:

It should be noted that the Red Army never had a consistent policy for designating the many sub-variants of the T-34 tank. Some Russian histories refer to the original version as the T-34 Model 1939, rather than the T-34 Model 1940 as used here, or T-34 model 1942 for the variant called T-34 Model 1943 here.

—Steven Zaloga (1994) T-34 Medium Tank 1941–45, p 19

Since this is the only thing written on the subject I've been able to find, I'll update the article to reflect this. If anyone finds any more specific information, please post here. —Michael Z. 2006-09-29 03:02 Z

The Finnish name for T-34 is sotka, which translates in Finnish into "common goldeneye" (Bucephala clangula). Its other Finnish name is "telkkä" (telkkä is western, sotka eastern name). There are various other waterfowls whose name end as "-sotka" (lapasotka, punasotka, tukkasotka etc), but those belong in genus Aythya, not Bucephala).

[edit] T-43 tank

I've expanded a recent stub about the T-43 tank prototype—please copy-edit and have a look at the talk page. I've also incorporated it here, in the T-34#Evolutionary development section. —Michael Z. 2006-10-06 05:25 Z

[edit] Tank as a symbol

How about putting this picture in the "Tank as a symbol" Section " "Rudy" wooden Mock-up tank made by unknown enthusiasts of the Czterej pancerni i pies series from Rawicz" Photo from Młody Technik (Young Technician) nr 4/1970. Somebody must have had too much spare time (and wood). Mieciu K 21:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks like you pasted the wrong link above. —Michael Z. 2006-10-10 15:15 Z

My fault, this link should be correct. Mieciu K 16:42, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of quotations

I just gotta say... I don't know who put the quotes in there at the start of every new topic, but they are an EXCELLENT addition. Really keeps ones attention, and adds insight to what people were thinking at the time. Pity this can't be put into more articles.

Again, awesome work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ghostalker (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Recent anonymous edits

Anonymous editor 12.72.119.116 (talk • contribs) made a series of edits, without edit summaries, which included some changes and deletions which seem to go against the consensus achieved in past edits and long discussions. I'm going to revert this for now, and then discuss some of the specifics here in detail. I think some of these changes should be incorporated. —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 00:47 Z

Edits, comments, and proposed action [please feel free to comment by adding bullet points]:

1. [4]
   1. the latter [BT tank] derived from the M1931 tank designed by J. Walter Christie
      • True, but this somewhat specific for inclusion in the intro (the T-26 was also based on a copy of the Vickers 6-Ton). I think the article should just mention that these are both foreign-derived designs. —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 00:54 Z
   2. It [A-20 prototype] adopted the sloping front armor hull design originally derived from Christie's M1931 tank
      • Actually, it was based more directly on extensive research at the KhPZ with the BT-IS and BT-SW-2 prototypes. It's probably worth mentioning some more details about the origins of the T-34's drivetrain, armour layout, superior "shell-proof" protection, and dual-purpose large-calibre gun. —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 00:54 Z
   3. The T-34 incorporated a sloped hull design for both front and side armor plates, improving its resistance to penetration by armor-piercing shells
   4. added: In particular, the T-34's sloping front and side armor reduced the effectiveness of German armor-piercing shells; smaller German antitank projectiles simply deflected or bounced off the T-34's armor plating.
   5. dropped without explanation: The emphasis in the Red Army in 1942–43 was on rebuilding the losses of 1941 and improving tactical proficiency. T-34 production increased rapidly, but the design was 'frozen'—generally, only improvements that sped production were adopted. Soviet designers were well aware of the need to correct certain deficiencies in the design, but these improvements would have cost production time and could not be adopted.
   6. By the last years of the war, the Red Army's armored forces had significantly improved operational capability, and this, combined with superiority in numbers, helped reduce losses
      • This rewrite loses one key fact directly supported by the cited reference, that Soviet tactics remained inferior. —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 00:54 Z
   7. T-34/85 tanks
      • the naming of the T-34-85 has been extensively discussed (and explained in the article—please don't remove that section); please consult the archives for the details, or discuss below. —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 00:54 Z
2. [5]
   1. Added "Overview" section heading
      • Not a bad idea, the introduction was a bit longish. —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 00:54 Z
   2. even though the majority of experienced factory workers were drafted into the army and replaced by less experienced workers
      • This edit drops specific demographic figures directly supported by the cited source. They give a clear picture of the desperation measures taken and should be retained. —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 00:54 Z
   3. After the war, the T-34 went out of large-scale production in the USSR by 1946—This edit drops the production figure of 2,701 tanks built in 1946.
   4. underwent a modernization program
      • This article is written in British English: modernisation was correct. —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 00:54 Z
3. [6]
   1. T-34#Model naming section dropped without comment
   2. Production tanks were fitted with a commander's cupola—drops a reference to the fact that the cupola was added part way through the Model 1943 production run
   3. The T-34 is often used as a symbol for the effectiveness of the Soviet counterattack against the Germans.—removed without explanation.
      • Can we explain more specifically or provide an example supporting this statement? —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 00:54 Z
4. [7]
   1. More renaming and minor copy
5. [8]
   1. more renaming
6. [9]
   1. Adds that the MT-17 gasoline engine, used as a stopgap on some T-34s, was based on the Liberty
7. [10]
   1. and some were left unpainted
      • The oft-repeated but unsupported story goes that some Stalingrad T-34s were sent into battle unpainted after the factory was surrounded: this should be mentioned, but not in a discussion of general construction standards. —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 00:54 Z
8. [11]
   1. Minor copy

Please comment on my comments. —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 00:47 Z

I've added some material from these edits:

1. overview section heading; foreign origin of previous designs; sloped armour
2. Establishing and maintaining production - unpainted tanks from STZ

 —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 01:35 Z

[edit] Protest T-34 in Budapest, Hungary

The 23rd October T-34 incident in Budapest has already gained legendary fame in Hungary, like the partiotic highwaymen of the mid-19th century. Webforums are full of topics like "uncle tank is our hero" or "uncle tank rulez".

One local news portal even made a fun flash game about it, see (click "Indi'ta's" in the lower right corner to start and you hit tables and cars while avoiding police tear gas and water cannons): http://index.hu/img/assets/politika/belfold/turul/t34.swf

195.70.32.136 16:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Western inferiority complex?

Every now and then we read that the Soviets had "inferior tactics", "poor ergonomics", "never really catch up with German designs" and other pseudo-scholarly bla-bla-bla. Any ideas as to why those superior and valliant German gentlemen were lying flat on their faces, with their sore ...sses tightly packed and handed over to them?

curious reader—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.51.183.183 (talk • contribs) .

Mostly because the Germans were fighting on multiple fronts, the Russian one being particularly hazardous due to its climate and Russia's sheer size. Also because the Soviets had numbers and certainly not bad quality tanks. The Germans were better trained, and that's a fact.

some guy—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.60.99.253 (talk • contribs) .

The specifics matter a great deal, as does the big picture when you put it all together—some of this conventional wisdom is mythical. For example, if you read this article, you'll see that it was the Germans who had to first catch up to the Soviets in tank design. And partly because the new designs were too big and complex, they never stood a snowflake's chance in Cairo of catching up in tank production. Meanwhile, the Soviets steadily improved in tactics and training. Another false myth is that the Germans had less resources—in fact they had more than the Soviets, and started the war by depriving the Soviets of much of theirs in the first few months.

Of course, there were hundreds of other important factors. —Michael Z. 2006-11-23 05:13 Z