Talk:Túpac Amaru II

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To whom ever is making issues concerning how, why or when the rapper 2PAC was named for or after, do so at HIS article or talk page since it is completely and indisputably right to do so there. Tupac Amaru Shakur, the historical Inca leader, has absolutely no affiliation whatsoever with any modern invididuals copying his name for whatever reason, especially someone so foreign to the historical roots of Peru or the Inca Empire for that matter, such as Lesane Parish Crooks better known as Tupac. If you think, believe, or wish to alter the "cultural references" section with a new, more appropriate sentence concerning this issue, do so in the most appropriate manner and in concordance with what everyone else at the rapper article believes is right. --Dynamax 7 July 2005 01:44 (UTC)

I dont know why you are so worked up over this. This is relevant to show Amaru's continuing influence with those who identify with the oppressed indigenous peoples in their struggle against the white/european power structure in the New World. 4.171.123.44 7 July 2005 03:14 (UTC)

Understanding that you are a new user who wants to contribute information to Wikipedia, I must tell you that while your contributions to any article are welcomed, you must understand every article has specific information about an individual thing, person, or place. One cannot interject information from something/someone else especially to a historical article of a person who stood for totally different ideals and had a different philosophy towards life. It is clear and evident the rapper does not, in any way, (especially with all that profanity used in his lyrics) relate to Tupac Amaru. In any case, anything that this rapper stood for is to be written in his own article, not here. I changed the sentence which mentions this rapper in this article to a more subtle way to explain he only used Tupac Amaru's name. How he obtained that name, since when, under whatever circumstances, is a totally different issue to be discussed at his article relating to HIS life. In short, anything related to the rapper is done by editors more informed about his life at his article. Thanks and welcome to Wikipedia --Dynamax 7 July 2005 03:53 (UTC)
Check this quote out, please. I just got done reading the Tupac: Resurrection book that has a bunch of pictures in it. Know what? Tupac's birth certificate says "Tupac Amaru Shakur". I have no idea why I keep seeing on unreliable bio pages that his "real" name is Lesane Parish Crooks. Unless someone can provide evidence affirming that, I think I'll remove that tidbit. Schmiddy 05:05, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)4.171.123.44 7 July 2005 06:03 (UTC)
Again, don't argue that here. The readers of this article don't care about the rapper. If they do, they will go to the article of the rapper and read his life there. Thanks. --Dynamax 7 July 2005 06:17 (UTC)
I agree with Dynamax, as I indicated on Talk:Tupac Shakur. -- Sander 7 July 2005 09:19 (UTC)
What the readers of this article may or may not want is not for you to decide. You are treating this article like your own personal fiefdom, thus demonstrating your strong personal feelings about the subject and therefore casting doubt on the objectivity of the entire piece.

Contents

[edit] Frivolous VfD

4.174.0.193 (talk • contribs) made a frivolous VfD nomination for this article (and screwed up the nomination process). I recommend everyone who agrees with the rationale for the VfD nom given by 4.174.0.193 (who I assume is the same person as 4.171.123.44 (talk • contribs)) please discuss it on this talk page. VfD is not a last resort for getting your way in an argument with someone with whom you disagree over article content. Tomer TALK July 8, 2005 04:42 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

"It is clear and evident the rapper does not, in any way, (especially with all that profanity used in his lyrics) relate to Tupac Amaru."

This is grossly and egregiously incorrect. First of all, the profane content of Tupac's lyrics should not be used as a metric of his revolutionary idealism. You had might as well say that "It is clear that this article (being written in English, not Tupac Amaru's South American dialect) does not, in any way, relate to Tupac Amaru". Your logic is flawed.

Secondly, Tupac Shakur does follow in the reactionary revolutionism of Tupac Amaru II. Examine his writings and his actions and speeches in support of the American Black Panther Party. While I agree that this article should not be about Tupac Shakur, I think it is very reasonable for there to be a short, one-line blurb, to the effect of

American rapper Tupac Shakur was named after Tupac Amaru.

"The readers of this article don't care about the rapper"

Maybe they should. Maybe they could. Who are you to say that they do not? I'm sorry, but you don't speak for every potential reader of this article. And, again: even if Tupac is mentioned in this article, it ought to be a very brief line, at most. Readers will not come here to "read about his life." jglc | t | c 8 July 2005 15:09 (UTC)

I completely concur that the sentence
American rapper Tupac Shakur based his stage name on his ideological identification with Túpac Amaru II.
is wholly fitting and appropriate. It would be wholly inaccurate, however, to say that he was named after him, since he took the name for himself. He was named something or 'nother Crooks. And, for the record, I couldn't possibly care less about the rapper. Tomer TALK July 8, 2005 16:59 (UTC)

I would agree, except that Tupac Amaru Shakur is not solely the rapper's stage name:

Tupac Shakur was born Lesane Parish Crooks in Brooklyn, NY in 1971. While still a
small child, his mother changed his name to Tupac Amaru after an Inca Indian
revolutionary, "Tupac Amaru", meaning "Shining Serpent". "Shakur" means "Thankful To
God" in Arabic

It's a confusing subject, admittedly... while it's not his given name, neither was it a name he took after he became an entertainer (as Tupac Amaru Shakur says, "Contrary to popular belief, Tupac Amaru was not Tupac's first birth name nor a name he chose for himself; his mother re-named him shortly after birth."). Any suggestions on how to phrase it? jglc | t | c 8 July 2005 17:01 (UTC)

I think inaccuracy has snuck into the Tupac Shakur article as a result of trying to reinclude the stuff I took out about Túpac Amaru II. AFAIK, it was Túpac Amaru II who was renamed by his mother shortly after his birth, not Tupac Shakur, who, as I understand it, took upon himself the name Tupac out of identification with Túpac Amaru II. Tomer TALK July 8, 2005 17:29 (UTC)
I, too, am thoroughly confused right now: The block of quoted text above was from a different source (though it is quite possible they are quoting from an incorrect wikipedia article). jglc | t | c 8 July 2005 17:36 (UTC)
Let's take this to Talk:Tupac Shakur#Name. Tomer TALK July 8, 2005 18:06 (UTC)
More than fair. I'm completely satisfied with the article as it stands now. jglc | Musachachado | c 8 July 2005 18:08 (UTC)
And, for the record, I couldn't possibly care less about the rapper.

And many people that read the article would probably agree with you. If they care about the rapper and wish to know about his life, including the origin of his name (whether he copied it as an adult, or was named such by his own mother at birth or changed it 20 years later, etc.), they will surely read the rappers article to find that specific, pertinent information. It is up to the editors of the rappers article to do a correct research on his name and post that information if need be. When I started contributing to this article, it was already developed by other users, a prove that absolutely does NOT make me the main "author" NOR much less the "owner" of the article for that matter. Yet when we see new users trying to interject what we perceive as irrelevant information to any article, we usually revert or correct in a subtle way that new information so it best fits the article. Such edits have been perfectly done such as the latest: "An American rapper, Tupac Shakur, derived his stage name from Túpac Amaru." I, for one, believe that is a perfect sentence to describe the rapper. Now concerning the user who nominated this article for VfD, whether it was the original one who started the dispute, User:Musachachado, or the unsigned comments left by 4.174.0.193, has been increasingly and suspiciously trying to create an unnecessary atmosphere of discord concerning the rappers description on this article. Our disagreements did not merit this article for VfD as has been evident by most of your opinions on keeping this article. Despite all this, we cannot blame or ignore new users who merely want to contribute their ideas to articles, which is what Wikipedia all about, but we must show them that there are specific ways to edit so as most of the editors of the article in question deem right whats being changed. I hope we can leave this behind and remove that dispute tag which makes it seem as information on the life of Tupac Amaru, the original indigenous leader, is in dispute. --Dynamax 8 July 2005 19:05 (UTC)


As previously stated, I'm fine with the way things are right now; moreover, I agree with your concerns over information on Tupac, the rapper, infiltrating the article on Túpac, the indigenous leader. The person who nominated the article on VfD did so in bad faith (as I noted in my comment there), but you might also consider loosening up... you really do present a very overprotective air in your comments, and this only affects others' ability to interact with you in a reasonable manner in a negative way. I understand how it is, but it's just something to think about. jglc | t | c 8 July 2005 19:11 (UTC)

[edit] Revolutionary groups

I tried to stylefix the revolutionary groups who claim Túpac Amaru II as their inspiration, and may have fuddled some stuff up in the process. Anyone who knows anything about these groups, please fix it up. Tomer TALK July 8, 2005 20:10 (UTC)

[edit] Modifications

  • The info about the rapper must go to the rapper article. I see no point in adding that info in this one.
  • A general description of the MRTA must be here. The Embassy is here, its outcome here. Also, a general description of the group is here and how it reflected its Ideals. In the same as the rapper, I see no point in adding Fujimori's trials to these article.
Tupac Amaru II is an important figure in peruvian culture. It should be respected. Messhermit 8 July 2005 22:05 (UTC)
Well, fine if you want Fujimori's non-trial reference ommited, might as well avoid much of the description of the incident and simply link to it. It is noted in that article's opening paragraph, so it is important for its depiction, if we choose to provide one as extensive, that is. El_C 8 July 2005 22:14 (UTC)
I have erased any mention of Fujimori on this article, wich I believe it has nothing to do with this. Also, the sentence about the Embassy was already there before I started any modifications. Also, the outcome of the siege is there without portraying the group as terrorism or freedom fighters. The subject in question here is about Tupac Amaru II, not if former President Fujimori is guilty or not. Messhermit 8 July 2005 22:24 (UTC)
Agreed. Good work on cleaning that section up guys. Tomer TALK July 8, 2005 22:23 (UTC)
Thanks Tomer, and thanks goes to Messhermit for his help with Peruvian history. El_C 8 July 2005 22:25 (UTC)
Thank you all. --Dynamax 8 July 2005 23:19 (UTC)

[edit] Shakur

Tupac Shakur WAS renamed by his mother shortly after birth, from Lesane Paris Crooks to Tupac Amaru Shakur. It was not his stage name, he didn't "take it in honor of Tupac Amaru II". Furthermore, whos to say he wasn't named after Tupac Amaru the First?

[edit] drawn and quartered?

I read from several sources (and is something that had always impressed me a lot) that he wasn't quartered (or, more exactly, they tried to do so, but the four horses were unable to torn apart Tupac's arms and legs, instead, they were cut with an axe).

Maybe in English language the term quartered doesn't imply it is being done with horses, but the fact that it has been tried to do with horses and failed should be mentioned as it is quite a remarquable thing (I'm not aware of other cases); and it is one of the most cited things about him (the Alejandro Romualdo quote does a reference to that, for example: "Querrán romperlo y no podrán romperlo")

thanks

[edit] Expansion?

I want to advocate and propose the possibility of converting this page to a stub article, considering the fact that information regarding the rebellion itself is cursory and meager at best.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../t/%C3%BA/p/Talk%7ET%C3%BApac_Amaru_II_f316.html"