Talk:Systema

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[edit] History

I'm just going to ramble on a little bit. If some of this is useful for a main topic somewhere, then there is where it should go. Bits could probably go into Russian martial arts.

(some notes were absorbed into Russian martial arts)

  • Many would argue that the communist machine researched and developed Systema from thin air, or from pieces of many other ideas and arts. There is quite a lot of history which reveals that this kind of research has happened. The example most in the limelight is Sambo, which was recently confirmed to have roots with old Judo (and vice versa with Sport Judo having influences by Sambo)
  • History is a difficult thing to research because of the newness of Russia in the global community. Foreign access to research tools was very limited. On top of that, the best history is always written in the native language.

Interesting points:

  • There is an interesting "sameness" to the cultural nuances and martial practices of a number of russian martial arts. This is a spectacular coincidence, or it is evidence of a cultural heritage which many arts share.
  • Interestingly, breathing practices have been likened to those found in areas of the old russian orthodox church. It is said that they perfected the techniques.
  • There are many interesting historical tidbits to be found within religious works. In old russian, communities formed first around the church. Like elsewhere, scholarship and literacy in general was focused there as well.

Well.. just noting some thoughts.. anyone can feel free to add, or be bold and make better use of these notes.

-- Sy / (talk)

[edit] Pronnouncing

's' as in set
'ee' but short
's' as in set
't' as in Tet
'e' 'Yay!' but short 
 m 'm' as in 'met' 
 a 'Ah!' but short

[edit] merge

(source)

Kadochnikov System
  • Grigoryan Grigoriy - Leader of Moscow Branch
  • email: grizli64@mail.ru
  • Website: www.kadochnikov.com
  • Taught at the A. A. Kadochnikov School in Krasnodar, Siberia.

Hmm.. why is this information different than from here? Vladimir Vasiliev, of Ryabko's Systema is listed as an affiliate. Maybe I'm missing something. -- Sy / (talk) 19:32, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think they should be in seperate catagories, but if you are going to merge them it has to be more organized. --Mista-X 05:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, Mista-X, you are right. Kadochnikov's Systema and Ryabko's are so significantly different in approach, to include them as part of the same entity is a serious mistake. --Charlie Evatt 15:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

How so? I thought I did a pretty good job. Sam Spade 06:41, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Your intent was good, but the main article was still messy, i.e. the links to Kadochnikov's Systema which redirected back to the main article, and no links to Kadochnikov, Rybko, etc... --Mista-X 22:39, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I put it back to basically what you had with a few small changes. If people don't like it, just RV. The one thing I'm not sure of is the "Founders" section. It seems to have to do with Kadochnikov and maybe should be merged into that section? --Mista-X 22:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, here is how it went. I had never heard of systema, but came across a messy stub @ Kadochnikov's Systema while researching William E. Fairbairn. I put a merge header on, but later I thought that was lazy of me, and did the work myself. Not knowing anything about the subject (except what I learned), I may have made an error or three, and am greatful for any cleanup. Sam Spade 09:30, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


Perhaps you should have left alone what you didn't know about!--Charlie Evatt 15:32, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

If people did that we wouldn't have a wikipedia, we'd have a nupedia (which failed, btw...) Sam Spade 11:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Just to comment on this thread. Sam Spade copied my Kadochnikov note from Talk:Kadochnikov's Systema. I did not make that comment here and I did not make this merge section. In this context, it might appear I made this "merge" talk topic and added that note to start discussion when in fact I did not. (proof) -- Sy / (talk) 15:29, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Being bold (again)

At its face, it looks as though these pages were merged without following procedure. Discussion to get authorization is required. So I'm going to do the work and break this topic back up into its components. I'm not asking for permission, these changes were wrong in procedure and wrong for the quality of these articles. I hoped these topics would stay separate without the need to have this discussion, but see my old notes from the history of this talk page. I was the guy who broke apart these topics and for very good reasons:

quote:

I carved this topic into a few pages, because they are all distinct topics with their own history and following, and should not be lumped into one page. I believe that now that the topics have been separated, they will more readily blossom on their own.

There are also distinct interpretations of history which should be separated now before things get messy later. =) -- -- Sy / (talk) 04:45, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

..

I want to reinforce the fact that there are two distinct student bodies for these two distinct arts. They happen to share a name and a lot of fuzzy details. Because there appears to be much more representation for Ryabko's Systema, including from myself, I didn't want that bias to diminish the uniqueness of Kadochnikov's teachings.

Also regarding those fuzzy details.. these arts are just emerging, and most of what is known isn't something that's translatable into the wikipedia. For example, there is a significant amount of original research done by practitioners, none of which is appropriate here. There is a lot of history and understanding that is in Russian language resources, which many of the "bookish" students don't understand (but some do). There is a lot of understanding kept within people (military, practitioners, priests or whoever..). Most importantly, there is a lot of knowledge housed within the art itself, which most say isn't translatable to text.

It's very important that these topics get off on the right foot, so they're not diluted by opinions, and especially the opinions of young students and non-students when it comes to comparing things too closely. I have been told by those who have seen them one after the other in demonstrations, that Ryabko and Kadochnikov look very different.. that they're both amazing, but very different. These two deserve their own little corners. Compare this need for the need for Karate pages to have various individual pages. "But they're all called 'Karate' and should be merged!" is wrong. "They're all called 'Systema' and should be merged!" is also wrong.

Indeed it may become more appropriate over time to further-separate things by creating individual pages for teachers, because teaching styles and philosophies are unique to each practitioner. Hopefully things won't need to get that complex.

I thank you all for your interest.

-- Sy / (talk) 15:35, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

When I began this restoration, I added notes to the talk pages of to any users who were involved in it. I mentioned for them to come here to discuss the issue. User:Sam Spade immediately began reverts. I noted him on Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress: [1] and repaired his vandalism.

I don't feel bad about putting things right again because merging these topics was wrong in my opinion and performed incorrectly -- same-day mergers aren't appropriate without discussion. Now if people want to open discussion on merging these topics together, I'm fine with that. However, my position is clear, and to help keep the various topics stay separate and avoid bad karma I've written a bunch more to elaborate the distinctness of these individual pages.

This entire affair was stupid and I saw it coming. I shouldn't have removed [my original comment when I made the separate topics.

-- Sy / (talk) 01:27, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Systema in Rocky IV?

Dolph Lundgren studied Systema while rehearsing for the role of Ivan Drago in "Rocky IV".
  • This is an intriguing statement since this movie was released in 1985. I'm removing it from the main page until it can be clarified. -- Sy / (talk) 17:36, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I have read on Dolf's website that he has studied many martial arts, but none of them Russian, let alone Systema. If this is incorrect I would also like to see the source. --Mista-X 00:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Just some general comments to shoot down the idea: Wasn't 1985 during the cold war? Wouldn't this art and its practitioners be a carefully-guarded secret? How many movies back then had legitimate martial training for a big-screen movie? Does Systema look even remotely like boxing? Does any Russian martial art? -- Sy / (talk) 01:34, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Popov's System, and categorizing the various arts

Popov's System appears to be completely unrelated to Systema. While a special forces art and a russian martial art, it doesn't seem to share any of the history of the other arts described in this article. Maybe I'm wrong and that article needs to be fleshed out a bit.

It's likely that in the future things would have to be clarified, to describe the various arts in the Russian military's past and present. Quite a number of arts seem to have been trained throughout the military and special forces. The Soviet military machine seems to have had interest in using pieces of arts for specific units or circumstances, and to have experimented with combinations.

There seem to be a number of themes:

  • Styles which have roots in ancient styles but may have evolved for various reasons
    • Systema (family, evolved by the Soviet military)
  • Arts which were manufactured from scratch from pieces of other arts
    • Sambo, Combat Sambo, etc (Judo, russian styles, etc)

Now the distinction I have between what's being called "Systema" here and Popov's style might only be minor. Maybe Systema is a good category for these types of arts, but this would mean that a lot of the content here would need to be migrated to Ryabko's Systema to make things more generic. Ryabko's Systema in particular is reaching back to its old roots. I don't know what can be said about the other styles.

One thing I wanted to stress was that there are various arts of various names with various histories throughout the russian military and even throughout special forces units. Things cannot be easily lumped together. Maybe everything needs "Russian martial arts" as a top-level category, and traditional arts need their own category.

-- Sy / (talk) 16:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation template

I have placed the template on this page because it is lacking sources. Please do not construe this as an attack upon the knowledge-bases of those who have contributed towards the page; it is because I believe that forcing references on a page not only improves its validity, but may even cause authors to find further information that is relevant to the subject. Besides this, it can bring in external links that act as a portal for those looking into the subject.

In short, they make an article much more useful.

-- Sasuke Sarutobi 17:54, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I've also added it to Ryabko's Systema. For that page, there is an English-language booklet and book by Vladimir Vasiliev. There is some media exposure etc. I'll need to research how citation works, and how it works here. -- Sy / (talk) 22:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flow Fighting?

Why is Scott Sonnon's Flow Fighting listed as being infuenced by Kadochnikov's Systema? according to Scott Sonnon here, his techniques have nothing to do with Systema, at one point, he says: "I have no idea what any Systema teaches, and frankly I don't care". He says many other things about Systema, and his style in that interview. So apparantly, Scott Sonnon's system is not in any way linked to Systema (according to him). So I will remove "Flow Fighting" from the infuenced by Kadochnikov's Systema section.. 70.17.132.73 04:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

At one point, someone was claiming Sonnon was the influence for Systema, I have also read from sources that Sonnon was the first to be taught ROSS in the United States, but in reality I don't know much about who Sonnon really is, what he teaches, etc. So unless real sources are provided it should be kept away from this article. --Mista-X 06:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of external links

I have removed links to Google and Youtube search results as per WP:EL. The section "Links normally to be avoided" includes the following:

10. Links to search engine results.

Linking to Youtube content is also questionable under the following guideline:

11. Links to sites that violate the copyrights of others per contributors' rights and obligations. Sites which fail to provide licensing information or to respond to requests for licensing information should not be used. (Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States.)

Videos on Youtube rarely indicate copyright information, and many are undoubtedly infringing on copyrights. fbb_fan 16:47, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

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