Talk:Swedish-Novgorodian Wars

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Quote from the article Sigtuna: In 1187 Sigtuna was attacked by raiders from Couronia and Estonia.

Quote from the article Saint Sophia Cathedral in Novgorod: There are several mysteries concerning the main cathedral gates. Traditionally, they were said to be brought to Novgorod by Saint Vladimir from Korsun in Crimea. According to another legend, they were snatched by Novgorodian pirates from the Swedish town of Sigtuna in 1187. In fact, these bronze doors were wrought and sculptured by Magdeburg masters, most likely in the 1150s.

[edit] Some problematic things

Article claims that Novgorodians made pirate attacks to Sweden. Is this actually confirmed by Russian chronicles? According to my knowledge, the Swedish sources do not suggest it. Somebody looted and burned Sigtuna in 1187, but the original sources claim that it was a deed of the "heathen". It is difficult to know who these heathen were, but in the context of the late 12th century, Estonians or Couronians from Latvia would be suitable alternatives. A 14th century Swedish source attributes the raid to Karelians, in alliance with Novgorod, but this is too late to be certain. It might have been influenced by the conquest of Western Karelia by the Swedes and the current war against Novgorod.

Nowadays nationalists in Finland, Estonia, Latvia and possibly in Russia as well are convinced that the Sigtuna raid was done by their "ancestors". A ridiculous example of the silly wish to get political profit from an obscure historical event!

I am also sceptical of the claim that the increasing trade if the White Sea influenced the Russo-Swedish wars of the 15th century. As far as I know, the Swedes made no attempt to gain any foothold on the White Sea during those wars! These kind of attempts belonged to later history.217.112.242.181 19:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

1187 Karelian vassals of Novgorod attacked the swedish region of Melar (it referenced to First Novgorod Annal) and possibly Sigtuna. But Swedes earlier attacked the areas controlled by Novgorodians in southern Finland and Karelia in 1142 and 1156-57 (during the first Swedish Crusade in Finland) Ben-Velvel 00:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1142 the first Swedish attacks to Novgorodians

1142 the Swedish troups attacked the Novgorod merchants in southern Finland and killed 150 Novgorodians; Novgorod lost the control over the south of Finland; Sweden started struggle against Novgorod in western Karelia. «Князь свейский и бискуп пришед в 60 шнеках». 1164, the 55 Swedish ships attacked Ladoga, but Swedes have been crushed by prince Svjatoslav and civilian governor (posadnik) Zakaria.

Source: The Novgorod "Karamzin's" Annals, the Full Collection of Russian Annals, vol.42, St.-Petersburg 2002

Ghirlandajo, IMO, it is necessary to distinguish territories, owned by Novgorodians (f.e. southern coast of the Finnish gulf, Neva, Ladoga, main part of Karelia) and territories, controlled by Novgorodians (southern Finland, Alands).

Ben-Velvel 00:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

There is absolutely no evidence of the Aland Islands or Southern Finland being "controlled" by Novgorod during the early 12th century. I think this is a very partial interpretation of the Russian sources. Occasional raids, although succesful, do not equal control. The Novgorodians attacked against the Jem, who may have been the Finns, in 1042 and 1123. Two raids against a distant country hardly mean that the country was controlled.

Moreover, there is no evidence whatsoever that the incident of 1142 would have occurred in Southern Finland. Equally well it might have been somewhere else in the Baltic Sea region. If I remember correctly, the Russian source says only that the Swedes came over the sea and attacked the Novgorod merchants, who came with three ships. Your suggestion that the Swedish "crusade" of 1156 - 1157 (possibly a fictive event) was targeted against Finland controlled by Novgorod lacks any support in the sources, at least as far the Finnish and Swedish historiography is concerned. Edit. I always thought that the battle of 1142 was lost by the Swedes. I am not certain of this, though. 217.112.242.181 12:04, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leader of the 1240 campaign

The article mentions leader of the 1240 campaign to be Birger jarl. The original text is silent on the leader and Swedish sources do not mention the expedition at all. At the time the jarl in Sweden was Ulf Fase. Having Birger as the leader seems to have derived from much later sources that wanted to emphasize Birger's role in the Swedish history. --Drieakko 08:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

As there are no alternative primary sources, it should stay. I object to your calling medieval Swedish castles with their modern Finnish names. We've been through this mined ground many, many times before. Please consult WP:NC and don't start it over again. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 16:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

If you refer to Turku, it is a town, not a castle. The Russian original text describing the 1318 attack calls the town "Lyderev's town" because the lord of the local castle was a certain German called Lyder von Kyren. Most of the Swedish documents of the era are latin that use "Aboa" for the town, in many spellings. The current Swedish name is Åbo, also with several options to write it in old sources. Turku is the oldest name for the town, deriving from a Russian word for "market" and also the name recognized by the majority of today's audience. About the medieval castles in Finland, their names were not fixed at the time when they were built and they appear under very different names in different documents. Names for those castles in articles I have created are the ones used by the National Board of Antiquities of Finland, see [1]. Using some other authority to set the "right" name for them is not reasonable. --Drieakko 17:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I refer you to Talk:Gdansk/Vote if you want to get some idea what we've been through on related issues. In other words, it is wrong to say that Schopenhauer was born in Gdansk (although that's how the Poles have always called it); we should prefer the official name of the city in any given historical period. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 17:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

P.S. The Russian word "torg" is a Germanic loan, so it's not so easy to say from which source Turku took its name... --Ghirla ^-трёп- 17:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

"Turku" comes from the Russian variant of the Germanic word "torg". The same Germanic word has also been loaned to Finnish directly, and it appears as "tori", meaning "market". Prior to Swedish conquest, Russian influences were heavy in Finland, e.g. the oldest layer of Christian words is from the east. Regarding the names of old Finnish places, we could actually confuse the situation a bit more: most of the population in Finnish towns in the Middle Ages were actually Germans, so there is always the option to pick a German name for them. Like in case of Vyborg, we could also call it Viborg, Wiburg and Viipuri, just depending on whose historical name, all old and original, is fancied most. Unless there is a really strong case to use an old name for a place, I'd strongly recommend using the one used by the respective article in order to prevent the name debate spread to too many places. If a name for a place is contested, let that be handled in the talk page of the respective article; unless there comes a decision on that, the default name given by the article should be applicable. --Drieakko 18:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide a single medieval English-language source which refers to "Abo" as Turku? You seem to ignore what I speak about. What was the population of the area in any given period is absolutely irrelevant. It is the official name that matters. Since Finland was part of Sweden, the Swedish name should be used. This is so obvious and has been discussed so often that I'm really surprized at your attitude. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 18:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Medieval Finland was:

• Country with the majority of the population speaking Finnish
• Country with most of the documentation written in Latin
• Country with town populations speaking mostly German
• Country belonging to a kingdom with majority of the people speaking Swedish

If you are looking for the closest guesses of the "official" names for people, towns or castles during that time, then they would be the Latin ones. --Drieakko 18:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I see that it's pointless to argue with you. Sigh... --Ghirla ^-трёп- 18:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, my point is that I object starting to use Latin names for Finnish places in articles handling medieval Finland. I don't see the reason for that. If you have come across English-language articles using "Abo" (which btw is not the name of the city in any known language) as the name for Turku, the text probably is a sloppy translation of an originally Swedish text or using Swedish text as its source. If someone wants to find articles talking about "Turku" in Wikipedia and does a search using that name, he should be able to get it all without having to know if there are some ancient names that are used in sets of articles which he would then miss completely. --Drieakko 18:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

As an additional note, please remember that there was no official language in the medieval Sweden. Furthermore, to name places in articles according to the official language of the era in question would soon result in many problems. Should we for example use French names for Russian cities in articles dealing with the late 18th century Russia, since the Russian Imperial court was using French as its official language at the time? And then shift to Russian names when French was dropped? And why is "Rome" not "Roma" like it should be in all articles talking about ancient Rome? In my opinion, old names make sense only if they have come to be elements in additional concepts, like Battle of Stalingrad or Siege of Leningrad. To start commonly use dead names for existing places just because those were the names at the time, would only result in plenty of unreadable material and bring no benefit to anyone. Like said as an opinion, reason to use an old name for a place should first be reasoned and requested by the respective article before starting to use it in other articles. --Drieakko 20:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

About the headline of this thread, I checked the original Russian chronicle and it claims the leader of the Swedish army have been "Spiridon" who was killed in the battle. Added that information with references in the article. --Drieakko 08:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

My policy is not to interact with guys who pursue original research in wiki-space. That talking to them is no use may be seen from the discussion above. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 16:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no original research whatsoever in the above written text. If you know any, please list them instead of making personal generalizations. --Drieakko 16:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC)