Talk:SunDog: Frozen Legacy

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This is a first pass. Any augmentation or clarification is, of course, welcome. A quick question: there are several sites on the Internet that have screen shots and scans of the box art. Can we use these? FTL isn't around anymore — has their copyright gone away? Has this stuff become public domain? —Frecklefoot 16:43 21 May 2003 (UTC)

Depends on what happened to the company; usually the assets, including copyrights, are sold to somebody as part of liquidation. They can't be PD unless so released by the owner, but screenshots and such are totally fair use, go wild. Stan 06:34, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Contents 1 Images 2 Wording 3 History Section? 4 Poor sections 5 Undercutting rumor 6 Bruce Webster's Project

[edit] Images

I just added a whole slew of images with Good Captions^TM. I didn't describe every little detail of what each screen capture represents, however. If any of you think they need clarification, let me know and I'll see what I can do. — Frecklefoot | Talk 03:38, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wording

amazing amount of data? epnoymous SunDog? precocious windowing system? Jeez, some of this language...--72.137.173.201 01:28, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, you are free to change the wording--this is a wiki. — Frecklefoot | Talk 20:35, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Already did. Just needed to vent :P --72.137.173.201 05:11, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] History Section?

Some of what is now in a long trivia section looks like it would form a good history section. What would then remain in trivia would make sense. I wanted to ask for feedback rather than make a big change like that unilaterally on a COTW. Coll7 21:14, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

It'd be okay with me as long as it can be made into eloquent prose. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 22:32, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Poor sections

I removed the following two sections because:

1. They are poorly written. Normally, they would just need to be cleaned-up, but also
2. They don't refer to any particular version. Do the bugs refer to the Atari ST version or the Apple II version? If the Apple II version, is it version 1.0 or 2.0? If 1.0, was it fixed in 2.0? And...
3. The "strategy" section mentions particular locations, but the game is random. Locations and such change each time it is played. It sounds like the originator of the text developed the strategy from one play of the game.

If someone wants to take a crack at cleaning them up and clarifying the details, feel free. Afterwards, go ahead and place them back in the article. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

==Strategy==

• Making Money - Buy scatterguns on Lafser / Tcana / Einkolt. This requires a ground scanner Woremed is a good place to get a ground scanner. Hang out in the parking lot at the lower part of the city. Buy scatterguns and shields from the weapon store. Wait in the parking lot for attackers and use your shooting skills to wipe them out and take their money to buy more guns. Once the scattergun gets low, place it in your ship for transport. When your ship is full, take them to Glory / Glory III / Surreal for sale in the bar.

==Bugs==

• Buying shields for the price of a rapidheal - Go into a weapon store and proceed to buy a rapidheal. When you are to take the rapidheal, click to the right of it and a shield will appear. Place it on your person.

As the lead developer of the Atari ST version, I agree with removing these sections for the reasons cited. I believe the bug mentioned was in the Apple II version, but it was so long ago that I can't say for certain. —Doug Bell ^{talk•contrib} 16:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Undercutting rumor

To answer the esteemed Doug Bell, I added the trivia item on FTL undercutting Accolade on copies of SunDog. I didn't find this listed on the Internet anywhere, I got it from first-hand experience. I used to work for Accolade. When going through some back stock, I saw copies of SunDog for the Apple II. I mentioned I loved that game, but the lady I was with mentioned that FTL was less than honest in dealing with them. Then she told me the tidbit I included in the article. I don't know if it's true--it may have just been perceived by Accolade that way. But they were convinced that FTL had conned them.

I know that this may be perceived as original research, something frowned up here on Wikipedia. I don't really intend to verify this by finding corraberating information. So, if you must, remove it. I just thought it was interesting. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I recall there was something to this, but like I said in my edit comment I wasn't part of the business side at the time, so it is nothing I was "in the loop" on. As I recall, there was another side to this, that FTL had a grievance with Accolade on this issue and that was the reason behind the actions they (we) took. My interest is not in sanitizing FTL's image, simply in trying to keep the article factual, so perhaps a rewording to remove the implication of taking a side in the issue. —Doug Bell ^{talk•contrib} 19:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not really taking Accolade's side on this either. It's just all I heard was their side. I'm all for balancing the wording. Please do so! — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:35, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

OK...I mostly try not to get too involved in editting the articles I am closely associated with to avoid injecting original research or a biased point of view, but I went ahead an made the wording changes I think are warranted. —Doug Bell ^{talk•contrib} 19:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bruce Webster's Project

Has anyone heard any updated news on Bruce Webster's Project? The artwork posted in the article looks very promising, so I was wondering if plans were underway to continue the work. Perhaps if Bruce is no longer able/willing to continue the project, some other Sundog fans could band together and recreate Sundog with the new graphics. MarshHouse 12:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

From what I hear, he gave up on it. A few things happened, which may or may not have disinclined him from working further on it:

1. The majority of people joining the project were C and C++ coders, but he stated from the beginning that he wanted it to be coded in Java so it could be used cross-platform. They kind of went against his (original) wishes and started coding it in C++. They also first wrote the interior of the ship instead of the navigation/console portion as he originally intended.
2. It took too much time from his personal life and work. I think he mentioned this as the real reason to cancel it. The guy has to make a living, after all. I think this is mentioned in the article.

As for fans making a game, I'd talk to him first to find out about the IP. He is easily contacted via email (I contacted him a few times for information on this article). He's very approachable, so I doubt he'd present any roadblocks to developing such a game. But check with him first, he may not be the only one with dibs on the IP. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Bruce is very approachable, though the busy nature of his work might delay his response to your inquiry for quite some time. But that is your best course of action. I also agree with Frecklefoot about what happened with the project - Bruce wanted to go with Java and start with a navigator-type project, but that didn't happen for one reason or another. I was the graphics designer (it’s an honor to see that some of my artwork made it to Wikipedia, BTW), dialogue writer, market-engine designer, and the galaxy designer, so to me it didn't matter what language was used. (Java is Object Oriented, so that makes sense to me.) Plus, those involved with the coding had their own lives and work, so time was a strangling constraint on everybody and led to the project fizzling out.

I still hope something can happen, one way or the other, since the project has amassed a lot of useful products like a huge assortment of graphics, a realistic galaxy/solar system/planet model, etc. I even suggested that we look into commissioning someone to write the core code for the navigator, so we could slap some of my graphics on it and have something functional to show, because attracting and keeping volunteer 'talent' is hard when there is absolutely nothing solid to work with. I thought such a catalyst would make it easier to get a open-source project rolling if people could see something tangible and build on it. But anyway, I know that's not what Bruce wanted, since this is supposed to be a purely open source project; I didn't truly want to commission a programmer either and it seemed like a bitter pill, but I thought it might be a necessary evil to get the project started, since years had gone by without much programming progress and people's interest in the project was fading. I just didn't want to see the chance for SunDog to become an open source project die away. Eh well, I don't poke around Wikipedia much, so email me if you want to get in touch with me. —Terofal77 | 13:46 02 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, C++ is object oriented as well, (well, it has facilities for OO, but there's nothing in it that forces you to write OO code). But I think the real advantage to Java is that it is cross-platform: what you write on a Mac, will work on Linux, Microsoft Windows or any other OS that has a Java Virtual Machine. Also, I think Webster's written a few books on Java and does most of his development in it, so it's natural that he'd want to use it for the project.

The bitter truth of the matter is that most open source games die. I don't know why this is, because many non-game open source projects are huge successes (OpenOffice, Linux, CDex, etc.). But having worked in the video game industry for several years, I'm familiar with the dynamic nature of game development and know that trying to manage that outside of the traditional 40-hour work week can be daunting. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

JAVA - Very true: the cross-platform capabilities of Java are the strongest selling point by far.

Do you think the reason open source games die is that they are categorized as a "fun hobby" whereas an application like OpenOffice is considered to be "real" work? If this is the case, games won't get the time allocation from the volunteers as other projects would and thus fizzle. Thus follows my idea of nailing down the core of the Sundog: Resurrection game through some form of non-open source development - perhaps getting some collage kid to design it for a school project or pizza money, or paying a professional to do some work in his/her spare time. Once the skeleton is formed, it would be easier and less time consuming for people to contribute to the project by altering and adding onto the already-designed framework, which should be "fun" and help the project survive. Creating a game ex nihilo is a daunting task for anyone, especially for open source volunteers in a game project.

Incidentally, I have archived copies of all my files, databases, images, etc, generated for the Sundog project, in case the need for them should arise in the future. If anyone is interested, email me for info. (email can be found on my userpage). Keeping my fingers crossed... —Terofal77 | 18:03 02 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, finding a game engine is no problem. Free ones and cheap ones (e.g. Torque Game Engine--just $100) abound. Finding one in Java is another matter. Most are in C++, which are pretty much Windows-only or are OpenGL, not suitable for handheld devices. Paying someone to create the engine is an interesting idea, but where's the money going to come from? Fans aren't going to pay for something that might materialize in the future. Heck, fans are even tight with their purse-strings when a game is available!

As for your other comment, I have no idea how any open source projects ever get done. It must be done by single people without kids. When you have a spouse, kids and everything that goes with those, there ain't no time to work on projects on the side. But, yes, games are probably considered a "fun hobby" (and, hey, who are we kidding here, an open source game can't be anything else) and an open source word processor, for example, is considered "serious" and "important." Just my $.02... — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I have stopped by Bruce's project page a few times a year hoping to see some good news. I for one would love to see this project come to fruition. Unfortunately not having any programming or graphics skills, I never had anything to offer to help the project along. The last I saw on the project page was Bruce saying things were picking up again, this was back in May, 2005 I think. I spoke with a college friend the other day, haven't seen him since 1987/88. He recalled playing SunDog on my old ST (he even remembered the name!). He only played it once as I moved shortly after that. That is an indication of how fun/memorable this game was. I think if only enough old SunDogger's knew this project was out there, finding the talent and personnel to finish the project, would be easy. ChuckUSCG 17:26, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I beg to differ. As much as I'd love to see an updated remake of the game, more people doesn't always mean faster turn around—especially in software and game development. More people means more overhead and work in trying to synchronize everyone's work and communicate effectively. Usually, a tight, small group of developers is more efficient and the most available asset is time. Just my $.02... — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that more people would make sychronizing and communicating more difficult, (I don't know how many people Bruce had managed to sign on for the project...) just that if the project were more well known, he might have found the "core" group that could have seen it through. I haven't been there in awhile, but look at all of the groups that are still creating mods for games that have come and gone, ie Jagged Alliance. I also agree with you in that most people consider open source gaming a "fun hobby" as opposed to "serious" "real work" ie, MythTV. I suppose I can only dream that one day I will once again be able to fight off hordes of pirates on my way to Wormed :) ChuckUSCG 18:40, 24 August 2006 (UTC)