User talk:Sukh

[edit] Concerning your suggestions on the Hinduism and the Sikh Panth article

Hello Sukh, You suggested to the User JasSa that any changes that are to be made to the named article should be discussed on the talk page. I tried this path before altering the article and added quotes from Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh which add weight to the argument that Sikhism is an independent religion (using references). The result? Everything I added was deleted and/ or changed to support the argument that Sikhism is a part of Hinduism. The person making the changes does not want to know the two sides; what I am trying to get at is whether you could tell me how to block the person making the changes as they only seem to be making them for their own relious means. Sandeep S K 13:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Aryan818 has no concept of discussion and essentially acts like a child. Persistent POV-pushing and being unable to discuss things rationally could be considered vandalism. It's difficult to discuss things with such as user.

The course of action to take is this: Tell Aryan818 exactly what you feel is wrong with the article in his state, and point to comments you think he should find a reference to. If he cannot reference the points he has made, you are welcome to delete them (uncited facts/opinions may be removed by anyone). But in the same vein, ensure anything you add is also referenced (for example directly from the Guru Granth Sahib or in published books). If Aryan818 attempts to remove points you added in a neutral, referenced way, I will intervene. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 13:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Cheers mate, I will try that and if he vandalises the article again, I will tell you.

Sandeep S K 13:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

See this is why I love Sukh....When Sandeep erases everything and puts down his biast opinion its ok...But...When Aryan818 erases everything and puts down his opinion its vanadlism...Sandeep ignores my arguments but thats ok...Aryan818 gives tons of arguments and hes the bad guy....Sandeep can erase everything and doesnt have to be blocked...If Aryan818 erases everything he has to be blocked...And then...Sukh writes that Aryan 818 is difficult to talk to...Thats funny because I have answered point after point after point after point on why im right and yet im the guy whos hard to talk to lol....U guys havnt read most of the Hindu scritpures & you only go by opinion books or what u heard....and yet im the bad guy? ARYAN818 21:24, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

"See this is why I love Sukh" - I'm flattered! I didn't know you felt that way about me!

So tell me Aryan, which Hindu scriptures have *you* read? I'm not as naïve about Sanatan Dharm as you seem to think. I'm glad you consider yourself both a Hindu and a Sikh. You're perfectly entitled to do so, and you should be proud of it (as you are). However, you fail to present yourself eloquently. I can tell you're young (I would hazard a guess of about 15-16 years old), and I perfectly understand why you keep on thinking everyone else has it in for you. Maybe in a few years time you can evaluate your time here with a bit more wisdom and perspective.

There is some truth behind the opinion you hold, but your ability to express it calmly, maturely and rationally is what is lacking. If you wish to get your point across, I recommend you read the Vedas, Gita, Smritis, Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth and determine what your perceive to be the similarities. Then, importantly, write down the page numbers of all the points you use! There are incredible similarities in the basic beliefs of Hinduism and Sikhism, but this does not mean they are the same religion. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 21:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

NO your wrong...When I first started doing this i did not insult anyone, i did not say anything negative...peopel said it to me first...so natrually i responded the same way as a human being...now heres what i dont get about u SUKH...I have typed my brain off trying to show u why both religions are the same...I have not just give only ONE point...or only TWO points..or only pointed out similarties...I have talked about the teachings...How the Gurus didnt want to seperate or create a new religion...HOw most families would be HIndu with the eldest son SIkh...How the GUrus had religious Hindu names (not just average names)...and im trying to show u a bigger picture and show u that maybe u should connect the dots...and all u do is ignore th em and tell me to show u the page number....and plesae dont say u know about HInduism...Because anyoen that says HIndus worship idols, believe in the caste system, etc proves that u only go by what u hear...and see...but u obviously hvant read the teachings ARYAN818 20:54, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to believe anything you write unless you back it up with reliable references - even if it seems so obvious to you. It's a simple request in academic writing and you cannot seem to fulfil it. When (if?) you go to university and submit your work without references, you'll fail - think about it.

Are you sure you're not getting my views mixed up with other users? YOU may not worship idols, YOU may not believe in the caste system but MANY people do. Anyway, it wasn't me making these claims as being the main delimiting factor between Sikhs and Hindus. Incidentally, what teachings have you read? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:58, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

Greetings, Sir. Long time.

Now, here are somethings I wanted to know:

• My current user id is Rajatjghai. I want to rename it as User:Rajat Ghai. How can I do so?

• Perhaps Nirav might have told you. I have been going through hell since the past week. The dispute that I mentioned to you the other day. Thanks for putting it up on the notice board. Anyway, last night was the limit. I had a revert war with that yokel, Satbir Singh. The total number of edits is an astonishing 80-90.

Thankfully, I mentioned the matter to Nirav. Acting on his valuable advice, I acted immediately and took up the matter with five different administrators: ImpuMozhi, Bhadani, Shresth, Gurubrahma and Blnguyen. Also contacted a number of editors and invited them to express their thoughts on the talk page of the template. I also signed a written declaration for not attempting another war on the talk page on Nirav's advice.

Fortunately, Shresth has now protected the page. Fortunately too, I won't be blocked under WP:3RR, which I had no knowledge of, because of the steps I took and because the admins consider the matter to humorous to merit punishment.

Although you have expressed your view already to me, I would still request you to see the template's template's talk page and if you desire, say something.

• I am currently free. I would like to know what work I can do for Wikipedia:WikiProject Sikhism. Also is there any work to be had on India or South-Asia?

Regards.Rajatjghai 19:58, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Rajat. You can change your username at WP:CHU. I wouldn't worry about the 3RR - I've been blocked for that in the past too :) A long time ago mind you, but it did happen! You're very politeand willing to discuss issues so you shouldn't have a problem here. I will keep up to speed on the issues and make a comment if I need to.

Yes, there is stuff for you to work on if you like! Go to Category:Sikhism_stubs, or work on Guru Nanak Dev or check out stuff on Wikipedia:Notice_board_for_India-related_topics! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Have made some changes to the Nirankari article. Please have a look. Rajatjghai 23:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Looks good! Well done! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Have just completed the Nihang article. Rajatjghai 01:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not mind at all. In fact, thank you so much for moving my pages. Regards. Rajat Ghai 13:03, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A question on the Anand Karaj article

Hello Sukh. I have one more question concerning a quote that is on the Anand Karaj article. I have read a book which explains the prayers that are spoken during the Anand Karaj ceremony and I could not find any prayer that matched a quote which is on the article (I have included the quote on its Talk page). Is it possible for you to clarify this? Sandeep S K 20:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Found it! I've replied on the article talk page. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:27, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re

Yo - thanks for your offer, but I'm enjoying this period of "not thinking about it." As for Aryan, I'm not sure what to do but I've asked user:Ragib to keep an eye on Hinduism and Sikh Panth. This Fire Burns Always 22:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid its up to us to be vigilant and patient in regards with Aryan and Elven. They've been warned and advised a thousand times about civility, revert wars and proper discussion. They're openly hostile to others and each other, so the next step would be a third ANI report for trolling (if violations continue) or an RfC. This Fire Burns Always 23:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

You know, it's essentially stuff like this that is likely to drag Wikipedia down. Valuable contributors such as you and I (if I must say so myself!), are bogged down with teaching 12 years olds how to act like adults. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FAC

Hi, I've nominated Adi Shankara for Featured article. If you feel like it, leave your comments at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Adi Shankara. Thanks.--^Babub→Talk 06:37, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The article concerning Hinduism and Sikhism

Hello Sukh. I am encountering similar problems on the article again. Altough the other user, Netaji allows Sikh views to be taken into account, he removes comments where it states "the majority of Sikhs..." whereas he retains sentences such as this: "These are extremely religous Hindu holy names. For example if a father named his son "praise Jesus", it would be natural to assume that the father believed in Jesus. So if a father named his son Har Krishan or Ram, combined with the fact they believed in the same teachings, it would be fair to assume that the father believed in Krishna or Ram." He seems slightly biased.

Sandeep S K 12:14, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll have a look into it. Although I must stress, any user has the right to remove unsourced statements. Making suggestions such as "The majority of Sikhs" without a reference is liable to be removed. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Concerning the top few phrases that you dug up in that article's talk page, are they indications of Sikhism being an off shoot or are they simply respectful terms?

Sandeep S K 20:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean? Are you asking whether I think Sikhism is an offshot of Hinduism based on those quotes? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:52, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is more or less it. The reason I asked was because some of the editors on that article will incorporate that without including the bottom part of the quotes. Sandeep S K 21:01, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

It depends under what capacity you wish me to answer the question. I don't think Sikhism is any more of an offshot of Hinduism, than say Christianity is of Judaism, or Islam is of Judaism/Christianity.

However, at the same time, I don't buy the extreme distancing from Hinduism that certain right-wing groups of Sikhism seems to preach. In my opinion, I'm not sure Guru Nanak wanted to create a new religion. I'm not sure Guru Nanak would approve of the rites and rituals that are so common now in Sikhism. By the time Guru Gobind Singh came along, the situation was entirely different of course and there was a definate need to change from the pacifist Nanakpanthis to the militaristic Sikhs.

To be frank, I'm not sure. I'm not a scholar, and I don't know enough about either Sikhism or Hinduism to make a judgement. I just know it's not as clear cut as certain groups would have everyone believe. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 21:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heres an example for u Sukh

U always say that im a child and that i basically am the one that starts talking smack...and i always respond by saying i never start it first, its other people who start it first right?...THe problem is they always report me cuz they have nothing better to do...And i dont waste my time reporting other users cuz its not a big issue for me...well...Since u had to say sarcastically that I think everyone is out to get me i thought i would show u a prime example...Go to the Hinduism and Sikh panth page...The user Eleven6 calls me an idiot even though I didnt say anything bad to him.....Now do u understand how many people on this site insult me first, before I do, just because I dont agree with their biast version?...Or would u still like to say that im the bad guy who always starts it and acts like the child first?....Go see for urself ARYAN818 21:03, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

That user now has a permanent ban. Just because someone "starts talking smack" to you, does not mean you should respond the same way.

My view is merely this - your views on things are not necessarily wrong. You just need to SOURCE them. Neither you or I are important enough to be the source of an opinion on Wikipedia. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 21:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] That article

I added one of my references and everything under it disappeared!? Sandeep S K 21:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

It was not done on purpose, I added that ref and it all disappeared! --Sandeep S K 22:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Not to worry. It was because you never closed the tag. It should be <ref> REFERENCE </ref> not <ref> REFERENCE <ref> (see the /). I'm glad you added that reference, however, that was not the point I had issue with. It was the line "He once indicated that he was not a Hindu after waking up from meditaion;". That line doesn't indicate he was any less a Hindu than anyone else on the planet! I think that line was more an indication of how god perceives humans (as neither Hindus or Muslims - just people!). Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 22:23, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Cheers, mate. Thanks for the pointer.

Sandeep S K 15:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming conventions

I have already made my contributions to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Vedic).Cygnus_hansa 16:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] That article, again

Hello Sukh. Concerning the Hinduism and Sikh panth article again, I think that it is pointless to even try to make it neutral as almost every difference seems to be re-written to seem as if it does not show a difference. For example,

• It is stated that it is disputed as to whether or not Guru Nanak wore the janju, whereas every book that I have read states that Guru Nanak refused to wear it.
• Some editor somehow came to the conclusion that the quote where Guru Nanak stated that he is neither Hindu nor Muslim when asked about his religion "clearly ... does not have that meaning".
• Some editor belives that Guru Gobind Singh established orders other than the Khalsa; I have never read or heard of any of the them.
• Someone states that there is no proof that Guru Gobind Singh wanted his followers to follow the Guru Granth Sahib.
• Someone states that Mahants actually did good for the Gurdwaras by maintaining them, however, they omit the fact that they installed statues of Hindu deities and deviated from Sikh beliefs.
• Someone keeps adding a Hinduism footer; it seems that this is done on purpose to refute the belief that Sikhism is an independent religion.

I am sorry that I keep mentioning that article but it seems that people are distorting its contents to refute 'mainstream' Sikh beliefs. Is it possible to simply delete the article as it seems that this practice will not stop. Sandeep S K 16:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about the delay in replying. It would not be possible to delete the article based on these issues alone. These sorts of pages take *ages* to sort out. I'll look at it again later on today. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi sukh. Tell me what you think of some of these articles:

http://www.hinduweb.org/home/sikh/rverma/index.html I'm reading them now one by one. I'd like some commentary from your part for balance. I'd like to fix the Hinduism and Sikh panth article (see my latest edit in the talk page) and remove it from needles chauvinism and place views of both religions on each other. what do you think?Netaji 20:12, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I remember reading these some time ago. I'll have a look again properly soon. However, there were some things that I tried to double-check which I couldn't find. Take for example this claim:

1. In the Hindu epic the RIG VEDA

(i) In Mandala 7, Ush 5, Mantra 5 and Chapter 6

"Bee chakram prithoi aishai ta khestraaeh Vishnu mansai das sayaan throvaah so asaya keeryo janaas oeroo khashatra so janama chakaar (8)"

meaning

"when in the world the sinful ways will be on the rise and noble behavior will vanish, as the disappearance of the moon when on its wane on the darkest night, there will appear Vishnu as a prominent Prophet from the Keshatra Clan and will manifest in consecutive form through 10 Prophets to bring back the ways of virtue to the ailing world."

Can't find this anywhere in the Rig Veda. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place? I tried looking at both the English and Sanskrit version and I can't find it. Mandala 7 I take as book 7 - and I can't find a line resembling that there. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 22:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Well have you scoured all 104 suktas?What is an "Ush" here? I thought Ush was an Ayurvedic root. Is it referring to "Usha" (the Goddess of Dawn)? I'm still rather new to this I'm afraid. As far as I know, the Vedas are organized by Mandala-->Sukta-->chapters. The 7th Mandala is here:

http://wikisource.org/wiki/ऋग्वेदः_मण्डल_७

Hope you're set up for Devanagari fonts. In the case of ambiguity we'll have to look at the whole Mandala from start to finish.

I've done a cursory search in the 7th mandala for all occurrences of Vishnu but can't find anything that makes a specific prediction of resurrection either.

Looks like this quote was cited in an article by Kirpal Singh Gill of the Gobind Sadan institute for comparative religions in New Delhi on the Guru Nanak-Rigveda connection. I haven't perused Mandala 7 word-for-word. A google search reveals this quote cited and referenced in many places (it's surprisingly popular).

If you can;t find it, then perhaps I should contact them and ask for the basis of the quote...

If there are any such problems could you put it up here and I'll try to help in any way that I can.Netaji 04:01, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

Hi Sukh - IMO, bullshit.

1. I can't find any sources on the supposed author, or an "Assembly of World Religions" that took place in DC in 1997. No citations - all scholars (should) know that to quote from Vedas, Quran, Bible and other scripture, you need to have citations, even info on the version of translation.
2. When the Vedas were written, there were (I think) no subcastes. Yet this piece claims the Rigveda spoke of a coming prophet from a specific caste, clan. The Rigveda is a collection of hymns regarding sacrifices and ceremonies, not like the Book of Revelation. Avataras were mainly discussed in the Puranas.
3. Never heard of a Vedic contention regarding Nanak - is it likely that common people and brahmins would not know of a prophecy of a deliverer? Its the biggest source of interest in modern religions. If Nanak was named so specifically, why isn't he recognized?

Btw, do check the portal - I've made a change in the select scripture, and need your confirmation that its ok in script and translation. Rama's arrow - this Fire burns always 23:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I could be mistaken, but this source is definitely not credible. As to the author and the WSP - [1]. Rama's arrow - this Fire burns always 23:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Thought as much. Claims just seemed a bit too much. However, do you know exactly what "In Mandala 7, Ush 5, Mantra 5 and Chapter 6" means? Mandala I take as Book, so we get [2], and if we take Ush as Hymn, and Mantra as the line number, what the hell is chapter!? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 00:06, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

It is further proof of unreliability - different translations and adaptations of the Vedas exist. And Vedic data is organized as "slokhas" - the Quranic passages are referred to as sura 1-2-whatever, and Bible as 3:16, etc. So for Vedas..? "Chapters" is a matter of conjecture and of English versions. At the same time, I unfortunately have never looked at a modern adaptation of the Vedas, so there's a limit to how far I should interpret this fellow's assertion. My advice is to look at online books and documents regarding the Vedas - they cite very differently. Rama's arrow - this Fire burns always 00:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

To add, there is considerable disorder on the proper translations of the Vedas. People have conflicted interpretations and translations. The Arya Samaj will push one version, Dr. B. R. Ambedkar another and Max Mueller a third. I don't know, but the Vedas translation are not to be trusted as much as a Bible or Quran. Rama's arrow - this Fire burns always 00:19, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I'm glad we don't have that problem with the Guru Granth Sahib! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 00:21, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Scholars are struggling to find out if the Vedas mention "India," or speak of an Aryan "invasion" of the Indus valley peoples. And this person is suggesting that not only "Nanak," but his caste and clan are foretold in the Vedas. Rama's arrow - this Fire burns always 00:25, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I think he prolly means Govinda as Shri Krishna. Dunno... Rama's arrow - this Fire burns always 00:28, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll have to dig up a book somewhere and clarify it. I need to buy more books, and find time to actually read 'em :) Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 00:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Try Google Scholar, Wikisource or Wikibooks. Rama's arrow - this Fire burns always 00:34, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree that this apparent quote regarding the 10 'prophets' in the Rigved could be a hoax, since a bald prediction seems inconsistent with the basic theme of the Vedas.Netaji 04:04, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] languages

Namaste Sukh! Can you translate my name (Abdullah Geelah) in what language you know please, and then post it on my userpage in the section with all the different languages. I would be very grateful if you do (if you know another language apart from English and the ones on my userpage please feel free to post it on) P.S. all th translations are in alpahbetical order so when you add one please put it in alpahbetical order according to the language. Thanks!!! Abdullah Geelah 14:34, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Thanks for adding Punjabi translations! --Soman 15:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

No problem. My Punjabi is not great so I won't be able to do all of them, but with the help of a dictionary I can do most. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:29, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I can help with Punjabi translations. I have native-quality English and am a native speaker of Punjabi. Please let me know how. Bunty.Gill 05:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi! Yes your help would be appreciated. Unfortunately, although I can speak Punjabi, it's mainly in the domestic realm and so the required skill for User:Soman/Lang-Help-pa isn't there. If you could help doing this that would be appreciated. If you're unable to use Unicode, please add font (DrChatrikWeb, AnmolLipi) text and I will convert it. Thanks very much! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello. I am sorry but I didn't get you! By the way I have your page on my watchlist, so you can just reply here, and I 'll read it the next time I login. My offer for help was a general one, and was not specific to any article or person. Also, I 've started an article on Tadka and added to Paratha. Any ideas for them? I want to click photos of both foods at home and upload. How do I specify while uploading that these are my photos and that I am willing to license them for fair and free-of-cost non-commerical open-use? Thanks. Bunty.Gill 04:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I was referring to a translation effort going on at User:Soman/Lang-Help-pa. Basically, the aim is to translate the English (titles) into Punjabi. I've done some of them, but I don't know Punjabi well enough to do them all. Mind taking a look?

Not sure about the foods :) How is Tadka spelt in Punjabi? I would imagine it was something like "ਤੋੜਕਾ" but that doesn't seem right.

You can select any suitable license that can be used on Wikipedia (see Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tag#Creative_Commons_Licenses for the Creative Commons licenses). Basically, you need to read through the ones available and decide which one suits your needs. If you allow commerical use, you can upload it onto Wikipedia Commons (which is what I normally do - see http://commons.wikimedia.org/). Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 19:20, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambig Page

Hi, I added to the Heer Ranjha page, and I want to start separate articles about Heer and Ranjha themselves. The Heer page however points to something else now - how do I bring in a disambiguation page for HEER? Bunty.Gill 04:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Done it for you :) Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 19:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot!! Bunty.Gill 19:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ahmedabad

Hi Sukh - gotta request to make. Could you please have a look at this article and its FAC and give it a copyedit? Rama's arrow 19:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Done! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Super Thanks! Rama's arrow 20:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link spam

How do I remove it? See last two anon edits on Chandigarh. Bunty.Gill 20:30, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Click History, and then click the date of the edit you wish to revert to. Use the 'diff' feature to automatically see the difference between edits.

Please see my reply to your message above about Punjabi translations. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. And have read the reply. Bunty.Gill 20:53, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sikh Confederacy & Sikh Empire, Template

Hi Sukh, someone has removed Sikh Empire from the Template:HistoryOfSouthAsia. If the reasoning is it didn't rule majority of Subcontinent, then by that reasoning the Indus valley Civilization, Pala Empire, Rajput period, Magadha Empire should be removed. It was a extremely major powerful empire in terms of military power to the British Empire. Someone put it back--Sikh historian 13:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the Indus Valley civilization is generally considered quite unique because of its age and apparent sophistication. However, in regards to the Pala Empire and the others I would tend to agree with you. Please bring it up on the template talk page and we can have a further discussion there. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The thing is Sukh, when I first thought about, I thought it shouldn't be removed but now I think that the Sikh empire's time was very brief. The significant thing about it was- it was fairly militarily powerful so on balance I think it was OK it was removed. However, I think anything less than, say 200 years, without significant territory shouldn't be there otherwise you would have an endless list of kingdoms and empires.--Sikh historian 19:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. I did re-add it to the list (when there were other smaller empires listed) and when it was removed, I reviewed the list and thought it was fine. In terms of land-mass, the Sikh empire was significant, however the time frame wasn't. Oh well! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Sukh, you know what they say- good things come to those who wait. :-)--Sikh historian 01:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

True :) But, can't say I buy into the Raj Karega Khalsa (not in the literal sense anyway). But who knows. Anything is possible. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 01:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm politically Secular- My personal view is religion should be a personal thing. In actual fact if Indian politicans can works together as one, for the benefit of everybody in India- I think that would be very close to heaven. However, I haven't seen pigs fly recently so I won't hold my breath--Sikh historian 01:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, we're likely to see eye-to-eye then. I'm politically secular, and not at all religious (although with a keen interest in it, and an admiration for Sikhism). Politicians are the same everywhere - and India is no exception! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 01:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm religious but I don't think that religion should become political (should stay politically secular). However, I think there is rare exceptions- like when a religion is being threaten or facing destruction- e.g. like during the period of the Sikh Confederacy when the Sikh Nation faced annihilation from Afghan armies- then to stay alive if religion become political then its OK but only in exceptional circumstances. Going back to the point about most politicians being useless, I like to remind you of famous say of Churchill’s, It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. Democracy is a rubbish way to run countries but its the ONLY system that WORKS- everything else has failed.--Sikh historian 01:33, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Ambuj's RfA

Hi - yeah I did a little hollering myself. Its a very odd situation indeed, but don't make the mistake of discussing SlimVirgin's actions on Ambuj's RfA talk. If you wanna get to the bottom of this, let's ask SV to talk straight and direct about what exactly happened. I'll support you if you want to do this, but we gotta move on from the RfA. Rama's arrow 23:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I think SV is probably aware of the impact her oppose made. And how, in my view, it twisted the situation. I suppose it could be worthwhile informing SlimVirgin we're talking about her on the talk page? Although she should probably have it on her watchlist. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes I'll drop a statement. We've gotta be clean - I want to let her know what I think. This situation is disappointing especially becoz a great candidate was derailed so easily. Rama's arrow 23:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

It gets my blood boiling when our distinguished admins forget the essence of civility. I applaud your conduct regarding SV, who has made me wanna go to war for the first time in months. Good health, Rama's arrow 16:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, now that I've slept on it, I did get a bit too worked up about it :) But not to worry, nothing we can do about it now. SV was entitled to vote the way she did, but as well all agree, it was a lame reason. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 18:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:1984 Anti-Sikh riot

I use the move feature when changing article titles. But the problem yesterday was that when I tried moving 1984 Anti-Sikh Pogroms to 1984 Anti-Sikh Riots, I got an error that the article 1984 Anti-Sikh Riots already existed and move operation could not be performed.

As for the article name, I believe we should stick to the term that is generally used by the people and the media. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gaurav1146 (talk • contribs).

If you're unable to move a page in the future, please request a page move on Wikipedia:Requested_moves.

I'm not too fussed about the page name so if there is a consensus to leave the page as it is, then that's fine. Zafarnamah should never have moved it without discussion in the first place. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 13:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link adding

Hi Sukh, I found this very large Sikhism resource website, personally I think its excellent. I'm thinking of adding on the Sikhism and Sikh articles whats your feelings about it--Sikh historian 21:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

www.srigurugranthsahib.org/main.htm

Yes, I've seen this site before. It's definately a nice looking site although content wise, I'm not too sure. Instead of being informational, it seems a bit preachy to be honest. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 19:32, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes I agree there is a little bit of a preachy element but I think the quality is good enough to make it as good as the other links we have on the external links section, so on balance I think it comes through--Sikh historian 21:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sukh, on a separate matter please see Rama's Arrows talk page. The comments are for you as well that I have put there. Thanks my friend :-)--Sikh historian 13:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dasam Granth - The conspiracy

Satsiriakal, my name is Lakhwinder Singh and I just wanted to make a comment about the the Dasam Granth. It is stated on wikipedia that the dasam granth is written by guru Gobind Singh ji and that is is a holy granth. That is incorrect becaause that akal takhat has said that the Dasam granth is a mythological granth and their is no connection of it with the Guru granth sahib(the dasam granth containt soo much course language about women that it is unbearable). Thay have also stated that the authenticity of the dasam granth is doubtful. This is all the work of RRS and Hindu government in India. Pls do not print information that you are not sure off. If you want proof, pls visit the following link. http://www.sikhpoint.com/religion/resources/dasamgranth.htm

I also have a video documentary on the conspiracy, if you are interested i can email that too you as well but let me know what you think of what i had to say. If anyone has any questions regarding what i had to say, i can be contacted at lakhwinder.dhaliwal@gmail.com, sat-siri-akal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.49.141.158 (talk • contribs).

Hello Lakhwinder and welcome to Wikipedia!

I'm well aware of the controversy that exists over the Granth. However, your statement: "It is stated on wikipedia that the dasam granth is written by guru Gobind Singh ji and that is is a holy granth. That is incorrect becaause that akal takhat has said that the Dasam granth is a mythological granth and their is no connection of it with the Guru granth sahib" doesn't make sense to me. How does the claim that the granth was authored by Guru Gobind Singh conflict with the Akal Takht's view of the granth as a mythological granth?

As far as I am aware, the information contained at the Dasam Granth article is correct. The article also states (in keeping with what you've written) that the granth does NOT hold the bastion of guru-ship as the Guru Granth Sahib does.

You're welcome to expand further on the controversy of the granth. However, please do not place conspiracy theories about the RSS and "Hindu" Indian government unless you can back up any claims using published third-party sources. Regards. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 19:29, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nun

On the article for Panjabi, I corrected a typo for the Shahmukhi, but you reverted it. How come? اَيُّوْبْ وَزيْرْ ਅੱਯੂਬ ਵਜ਼ੀਰ 19:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Ah, didn't notice the Shahmukhi correction - please feel free to add it. The main reason for reverting your changes was because of the changing of the nasalisation sign'. If you wish to employ a different transliteration scheme for Shahmukhi, we can change the table to put the transliterations under each bit of Gurmukhi/Shahmukhi text. The changes you made didn't comply with IAST/ISO 15919.

Hope this addresses your concerns. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hahahaha...

Kiddey Pa'aji! Yes unfortunately there is no group of editors that keeps an eye on the article - just you. I try to help, but Rajatghai has also left. If anything, the Sikhism WikiProject should aim to develop such a community, which can protect content as much as build articles. When do you plan to start work on Guru Nanak? I can help this weekend. Rama's arrow 23:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Uhmm, this is going to be very difficult. I've tried to do some work on it already, but just have not had enough time. I'll e-mail you shortly (as in tomorrow, not today - i'm tired!) about reasons why I won't be on Wikipedia much soon. Although I'll try to contribute when I can. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

That is indeed very disappointing news. Rama's arrow 02:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Karma in Sikhism

Sukh, it's been a while since we last spoke. Can you or others write an article on Karma in Sikhism, to distinguish from other Dharmic religions. I have written an article on Karma in Hinduism to distinguish from Buddhism.

Thanks, if you can.

Raj2004 10:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Raj. I'll see what I can do, however I can't promise anything because my personal situation is changing very rapidly at the moment (for the better!) and so my contributions to Wikipedia will decrease. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

That's great, Sukh I am happy for you. and no problem.

Raj2004 20:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sikhism is MainPage!

Congratulations for August 17! Don't miss it! Rama's arrow 17:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations Sir, It has been an almost single handed effort by you. Haphar 14:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank-you! Although, I must say both Nirav (Rama's Arrow) and Rajat have contributed heavily also! So, congrats all round. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Hehehehehehe... I suppose I forgot to warn you that as much as it is an honor for millions of people to read one's article, it is the biggest vandal-magnet on the net as well. However, its a matter of pride, becoz when somebody googles Sikhism, WP is one of the very first links, and the most comprehensive source of its kind. Rama's arrow 14:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Really a Great work! Congratulations to you and the core team which developed this page to elevate it to this level. All the best! --Bhadani 15:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Names of Sikh Gurus

Dear Sukh

Don't you think the names of Sikh Gurus in the list should be as follows: 1) Guru Nanak Dev (instead of Nanak Dev)....................10) Guru Gobind Singh (instead of Gobind Singh).

Thanks.

B S Johal from Auckland

No, I think they'd be redundant. There is no need to use Guru everywhere. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 22:52, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Khalistan

Hey Sukh...the Khalistan page is again going to land in trouble, the massive reverts have already started. Anyway, my only involvement in this was to make the headings conform with WP:MoS. This is my version after I changed the headings for the first time. You have to admit, the headings are pretty bad in the current version. I want to ask you whether you agree with my heading changes before I change them again and get reverted because of my apparent Hindutva fascism. Thanks. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with your changes to the headings. Unfortunately, I won't be able to get involved with fixing up this article because my personal situation is rapidly changing. But maybe some time in the future. I just don't have the time to niggle over every minor and heavily research many books. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 22:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sikhism in the United States

Since there are more Sikhs than Jains in the US, its high time you guys got your own article (in the US). Also the Northwest has been home to Sikhs for 100 years now, while California has been home to Sikhs for possibly 125-130. Since you can find more sources, I am requesting you to take a look at it and make whatever changes needed.Bakaman _Bakatalk 16:39, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I haven't got time to contribute to this article at the moment. Also, I'm not a resident of the US and I've never visited it (I'm a British Indian!). But, hopefully the wiki process will fix it up! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 22:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok. I thought you were in the US. I'll be on a wikibreak, but I'll try and start in earnest sometime later this wwekk.Bakaman _Bakatalk 16:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hi Sukh

Hi Sukh, please join the dicussion on Rama's arrow's talk page your expertise is urgently required. Kind regards--Sikh historian 21:03, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Syiem's response re:Khalistan

Here are few more edits by Zafarnamah: Zafarnamah's diffs:

[3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9]Syiem 15:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent page move

Hi! user:Zafarnamah has moved page Anti Sikh Riots to Anti Sikh Pogroms without consensus again. See diff:

[10]

I see that you have already warned him on his talk page. This is for your information please. BhagatSingh 14:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I dont understand his logic. (Zafarnama's). How is the RSS at fault, it was the congress party (pseudo-seculars)? Infact, the RSS probably would have taken sides with the Sikhs.Bakaman _Bakatalk 19:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FAC

Fundamental Rights, Directive Principles and Fundamental Duties of India is on FAC. Please give your comments on the article. This is not soliciting your vote, but considering the fact that you had voted last time. Thanks. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| ŗ 3 $ |-| ţ |-|) 04:36, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Szhaider

True - I know about him. Although I don't run into him in other areas, I'll be mindful of this. Rama's arrow 17:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stop it now

You started the edit war by adding misleading info to Abrar-ul-Haq (see [11]) and you should stop it now. Szhaider 14:13, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] G.T. Nanavati

I'm working on it for DYK. He was the guy who brought the 1984 Anti-Sikh riots perpetrators to justice. Do you want to help out?Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:44, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Urdu scripts

Namaste Sukh. Thanks for your support on the Talk:Abrar-ul-Haq discussion. I thought both scripts of Punjabi would be a good idea. I noticed that you were planning to remove the Urdu scripts from the Bollywood articles. I would request that you do not do so for several reasons: The lingua franca of Bollywood is Hindustani (Hindi-Urdu) as opposed to shudda hindi. (see Bollywood Language) Many Bollywood songs use more of a Persianisized Hindustani (Urdu) than Sanskritised Hindustani (Hindi). Please also see Talk:Bollywood where it was voted upom that Bollywood films and actors shall have their names in Hindi and Urdu. I would also look at the language articles: Hindi, Urdu, and Hindustani. Each of these articles has a section pertaining to Bollywood. Thanks for your understanding sir! Anupam^Talk 03:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I concur. Urdu was even used in most Bollywood movie posters before the 90's. Now, the Urdu script, as well as Devanagari, appears in many movies before the opening credits. And it is already established that Bollywood-related articles use both scripts. Thank you. Mar de Sin ^{Talk to me!} 01:55, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you read this: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Use_of_vernacular_scripts_in_India_bio_articles_-_2--D-Boy 08:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seeking help and contribution

Dear Mr.Sukh,

We apreciate your valuable contribution in article named Wikipedia:Indic transliteration scheme on english WIkipedia.

We at Marathi Language wikipedia do not have enough expertise to update IPA related info in our article, specialy we have been unable to import/update IPA templates and do not know how to use IPA symbols.Please click here-this link- to provide help to update "IPA transliteration for Indic Languages" article for Marathi wikipedia

We seek and request for help in updating above mentioned article and would like to know relevant resources and refferences in respect of Devanagari and IPA .

Thanks and Regards

Mahitgar 16:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] review

Hi - Please do me the kindness of visiting and sharing your views at Wikipedia:Editor review/Rama's Arrow 2. I need your advice and criticism, and I would be immensely grateful if you could spare a little time on this. Thank you, Rama's arrow 15:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bhatra

Hi Sukh - I think you're aware of the Bhatra article. I was going to ask your opinion about it but I see you're busy right now, so I know you can't answer this. Just wanted to let you know there's a tricky situation there at the moment so I've asked for comments on the Sikhism project talk page. --HJMG 08:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Guru Gobind Singh 's death

Any idea why how he died is not on the wiki article ? Haphar 08:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Not sure really. The articles on the Sikh gurus have not had much work done on them. I did start on Guru Nanak, but never got far because I've been very busy! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bhangra

I just noticed that you deleted the whole list of artistes from the bhangra article. You didn't discuss this with anyone first! That's a big step to take without any consultation.

I agree that the list WAS a spam magnet, but it did have some information value. We do have lists of Indian actors and actresses -- lists of musicians don't seem to be an inherently bad idea. Is there some other way to point people to articles about bhangra musicians? Zora 02:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it was a WP:BOLD moment :) I just found it a huge spam magnet, and a magnet for unencyclopedic information (i.e. bedroom Bhangra mixers).

I suppose we could have "List of Bhangra musicians" or something similar? That way it might be easier to maintain and look after. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Severe POV problems

I was wondering if you would please to check the Khalistan and the Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale article from what I feel are the edits done by the anon user before, only now as a new user. He seems to be persistent and does not seem to be willing to listen to me despite my pleas to discuss. The user is User:Gstar4Hkelkar 06:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I appreciate your efforts on these articles and they will both take a *lot* of work. Unfortunately I'm very very busy and the moment and really have no time to be able to contribute and even read these articles so I can't really help. However, if there are any particular issues, please get in touch and i'll give my opinion. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:36, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Happy Diwali

Hi dude - my best wishes to you and your family! Happy Diwali! Rama's arrow 22:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Nirav, and I wish the same to you! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Bhindranwale

Please see Bhindranwale. Regards.Syiem 15:36, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Did you mean the funny redirects? If so, I've fixed them now. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:47, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes. That is exactly what I had meant. Thanks very much! Syiem 05:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New images on Sikh

Hi! Two new images have appeared on the Sikh article. Are you aware who these people are? I don't see these images serve any purupose. Thanks! 203.197.216.5 06:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Completely (well, mostly) irrelevant Canadian Sikh politicans. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 18:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User:Bakasuprman/Sukhbir

I'm working on an article about Sukhbir, but on my user space so it doesnt get CSD's once I create the page. Could you help out a bit? Bakaman _Bakatalk 02:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prakash Utsav

Heartiest congratulations on the Prakash Utsav. Anwar ਅਨਵਰ | Talk ਗੱਲ ਬਾਤ 04:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sukh, Happy Guru Parab to you -- Lost^(talk) 04:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Punjabi

As a Punjabi speaker, please could you take a quick look at Template talk:Infobox UK station#Bilingual station names. I would appreciate it if you could comment if there are any legibility problems with the Gurmukhī script in any of the options. Thanks, Thryduulf 09:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent additions

Hi Sukh. Yes I will put up the relevant sources of information under references, that would definetely be useful. The thing is Sukh, I have no passionate viewpoint one way or the other, whether it is an extreme Sanatan Sikh viewpoint on Sikh history or whether it be an orthodox SGPC Viewpoint on Sikh history. I just want information from all sides to be present so people can have information from more than just one source. I hope that helps in clarifying my efforts....? I see all too often on more biased and smaller websites that are out there, information given from just one viewpoint, the majority of the time referenced from a few British Historians. I don't mean to ever place my additions on a pedestal over the information already present. I would like it to sit side by side, as information which is just as credible so all facts/theories/stories can be present for a more fuller and rounded article(s). I understand the sensitivities of the people and apologise for any offence I may have caused.

Thank you for your advice on improving clarity for the future including the use of references of material wherever possible.

However I am not aware of any Devnagri transliterations...what do you mean by this?

Love and Peace

Prit

Hi Prit,

It's good to see you here. I certainly do not have a pssionate viewpoint either way either! Feel free to add any additional interpretations that you feel are relevant with appropriate sources. You say "I just want information from all sides to be present so people can have information from more than just one source." and this is exactly what we want of Wikipedia!

In regards to the transliterations, these appear to be done by 210.212.129.66 and were done around the time of your edits. I simply did a complete 'diff' and presumed these were yours even when they weren't! Apologies for this because it certainly wasn't you! I've done this before, and should really learn from my mistakes :) Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 17:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Use_of_vernacular_scripts_in_India_bio_articles_-_2

Voting on the use of indic scripts.--D-Boy 01:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Panjabi Wikipedia boxes

Hi. I've just remarked the WP languages boxes (such as {{user pa-2}}) are written in English. Could you translate them into Panjabi? They'd look much better. BernardM 22:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] you may want to see

Check out Szhaider (talk • contribs) and Nadirali (talk • contribs). They're trying to invent "Pakistani history" on wikipedia, and removing Indian tags from ancient Hindu cities. Also they removed Gurumukhi from Punjab page. I noticed you and I had trouble with him before. Anyway were missing you here on wiki so come back soon.Bakaman 03:22, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Yes I did have trouble with Szhaider but eventually he relented and realised that "Abrar Ul Haq" was as much a Punjabi name as it was Urdu (it's actually neither - but oh well!).

Sorry I left it too late to help. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 22:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Vernacular scripts

just incase you are interested in the discussion. No one else is really giving input.--D-Boy 03:19, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] help needed

I'm staring a page on Bhai Gurdas in my userspace. Would you like to help?Bakaman 00:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Look goods! Made some minor changes that should help. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 22:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

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