Talk:Subh-i-Azal

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[edit] Baha'u'llah's and Mirza Yahya's Wife

Copying some of the discussion from Baha'u'llah discussion that has to do with Mirza Yahya

Just another note to prove that the laws of the Arabic Bayan were not applied right away was that Mirza Yahya (Subh-i-Azal), the sucessor of the Bab, also took a second wife after the Bab died. -- Fadeaway919 06:36, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, in Babism you can have two wives. As you very well know, this is also the case with Bahaullah's own writing, which was later "explained" by Abdul-Baha that when Bahaullah said you can have two wives, it really mean only one !!  :-) --- so yes, Subh-i Azal took a second wife, but according to Babism he was not doing anything wrong. In both the Bayan and the Aqdas it is CLEARLY indicated that up to two wives is allowed. --Amir 06:56, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In regards to Mirza Yahya's wives, there are many sources were they say he had more than 6 wives or even more, for example his own son Ridvan-`Ali reports him to have had eleven or twelve wives (from Browne, "Personal Reminiscences of the Babi Insurrection at Zanjan in 1850, written by Aqa `Abdu'l-Ahad-i-Zanjani," Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, (1897, pp. 761-827) p. 767.) , but let's say that is not true.
This page [1] recounts evidence (with non-Baha'i sources) about Mirza Yahya's wives. I'll go over some of them here, showing that he had more than one wife before going to Baghdad and show he married more wives in Baghdad after the Arabic Bayan was written saying you could only have two wives. (see the linked page for non-Baha'i sources to below info).
1. Qanitih (also known as Maryam), married in Iran and stayed in Baghdad,
2. Fatima (Mulk-i-Jahan, Malakih Khanum) of Shiraz, the sister of Mirza Baqir. Married in Iran. Followed her husband to Baghdad, Edirne and Famagusta and died in Famagusta.
3. Badri-Jan (also known as Badr-i-Jahan) who married Mirza Yahya in Baghdad and finally was exiled to Akka away from her husband. She eventually returned to Cyprus alongside Mirza Yahya and died in Cyprus
So yes Baha'u'llah had three wives, marrying one after the Bab's Arabic Bayan came out, but the facts above are to show that the rules of the Arabic Bayan were not completely in use, even by Subh-i-Azal (Mirza Yahya) who was appointed as the Bab's successor. -- Fadeaway919 17:17, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
This is really such a lame excuse for a leader. He had accepted the Babi principles, and according to Bahai claims, he was one of the most prominent figures of the Babi movement. And you are trying to excuse his breaking one of the principles of that faith for his carnal and worldly desires, and what excuses him is "well, the other guy also did it"?!! His third wife, Gowhar from Kashan, was actually one of the maids of his first wife, Asiye Khanum Navab. So in all likelyhood, he was taking sexual advantage of this house maid, she became pregnant and he had to marry her. --Amir 19:40, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Please provide references for "in all likelyhood, he was taking advantage ..." -- Fadeaway919 19:44, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
Do you understand what "in all likelihood" means? It means "quite probably" ... if there was any solid evidence to support this statement, then it would not have been stated with probability, it would have been stated with certainty. --Amir 21:48, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
BTW, I also left you this note elsewhere. --Amir 22:49, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
really... whats the point? i mean, i dont see any constructive discussion, much less something related to improving the article.. wikipedia is not a forum :) - --Cyprus2k1 10:00, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Copying over a reference from another article: a son of Subh-i-Azal reported his father to have had eleven or twelve wives while another source gives fourteen wives. The source is M. Momen's The Cyprus Exiles at [[2]]. --Occamy 14:08, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Letter from God to God

The quote shows quite clearly that the Bab was addressing himself as God, to Mirza Yahya as God. This is unequivocable no matter how much Bahai's want to ignore it. Wjhonson 07:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

This is an interesting issue and there are two associated points:
The first is that the Maulana Muhammad Ali's History and Doctrines of the Babi Movement is at best a secondary source. The E.G. Browne document quoted is available here. Browne's introduction to the Kitab-i-Nuqtatu'l-Kaf does not provide a translation of the Báb's Will, so it (Kitab-i-Nuqtatu'l-Kaf) can at best be considered a secondary source — making the Maulana Muhammad Ali's tertiary.
Upon review of the H-Bahá'í document, the passage of the Bab's will quoted in the Maulana Muhammad Ali document does not appear there. There is in fact only one reference to "Nabil", and this is off-topic from the succession.
Further a study of the actual will can be found in Manuchehri's "The Primal Point’s Will and Testament, Translation and Commentary", available online here. The commentary on the Báb's will has this to say about Browne's Kitab-i-Nuqtatu'l-Kaf:
"Nuqtat al-Kaf: ed E G Browne, Leiden: EJ Brill 1910. Reprinted East Lansing, Mi: H-Baha’i 1997. Whilst not quoting any of the verses in full, the author focuses on the general tone of the letter particularly verses 5, 25, 27, 30, 32 and 34."
Study of the Manuchehri translations show no resemblence at all to the History and Doctrines of the Babi Movement passage cited and elsewhere on Wikipedia. It appears that the reference to The Bab's will in the History and Doctrines of the Babi Movement is not at all credible. This selection should be stricken as the source isn't reliable.
Secondly is the consideration of the text itself. Interestingly the key verse, the second, is not unanimously translated among the four studied. Of the three that concur, Manuchehri points out that Version 1 is attributed directly to Yahya, Version 2 is in Yahya's own handwriting, and Version 4 is ascribed to "generations of Babi/Bayani scribes overtime". These versions, 1, 2, & 4, read:
"Then testify that there is no God but you, the victorious and permanent." (Emphasis added.]
Version 3 is ascribed to one owned by the Afnán family, and has this to say about that version:
"Secondly, its discovery in the Afnan collection may point an earlier MS [manuscript] owned by Sayyid Ali Afnan or the Bab’s immediate family residing in Shiraz. It could suggest that the Bab or Subh-e Azal chose to send an early copy of the original MS to Shiraz."
The Baha’i scribe notes that the original did not contain any points/dots in the handwriting, which could suggest that this MS [manuscript] was from either Sayyid Husayn Yazdi or the Bab."
This version differs from the other three and reads:
"Then testify that verily there is no God but me, the victorious and permanent." (Emphasis added.)
Charges and counter-charges of forgery, suppression of various texts, etc. have been a part of the Baha'i/Azali question from the beginning. However, stating that only one translation is the "right and proper" one on the encyclopedia is inappropriate.
We need to refer to the actual translations on H-Baha'i as primary sources and strike the reference to the History and Doctrines of the Babi Movement. We also have to note the discrepancy in the second verse and that that discrepancy involves passages in Yahya's handwriting. It would look something like this:

Claims that Mirza Yahya's is "Him Whom God Shall Make Manifest" are based in-part on a version the Báb's Will. Several versions of this are extant. A translation, by Manuchehri (2004), of the Will as published by, and in the handwriting of, Mirza Yahya (available online here) reads:

"Name of Azal, testify that there is no God but I, the dearest beloved.
Then testify that there is no God but you [Yahya], the victorious and permanent.
Say, God created what He created from the time of beginning that has no beginning and, whatever He creates until the time of end that has no ending, to manifest His own being. This is the commandment of God upon whatever He has created and shall create.
...
We order you to obey Him Whom God Shall Make Manifest. He will verily appear amongst this people with a sublime reign in the final resurrection.
Verily we are all servants and kneel down before Him.
He shall carry out whatever He wishes, with permission from His Lord. He shall not be questioned for his actions. However all others are responsible for everything they do. ..."
Manuchehri, Sepehr (2004). "The Primal Point’s Will and Testament, Translation and Commentary", Research Notes in Shaykhi, Babi and Baha'i Studies, Vol. 7, no. 2 (September, 2004) (Emphasis added.)

This claim is not un-contested, and another manuscript, owned by the Afnán family, differs from the abover version in one key particular. Manuchehri translates the second verse of that manuscript as:

"Then testify that verily there is no God but me, the victorious and permanent."
ibid. (Emphasis added.)
I'm not sure that that should go onto this page or Bahá'í/Bábí split. But clearly the History and Doctrines of the Babi Movement selection isn't credible. MARussellPESE 21:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The source citation was in error Wjhonson 22:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Your request to refer to only the translations on the Baha'i site is flawed in one serious way. They are Baha'i. That is pov, not neutral. It is well-proven that there have been many self-serving "corrections" to original works. We are not here to prop up the Baha'i church, but to write a balanced article about Mirza. A person that Baha'i are taught is fairly close to being Satan. Their own writings are not the place to look for a balanced pov on him.
Or make a link from this page to a *new* page where we can discuss the will at greater length. Merely wiping out the most crucial evidence to support Mirza's claim isn't fair to his memory. No matter how many Baha'i scholars agree. Wjhonson 22:25, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The source citation was in error Wjhonson 22:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
H-Baha'i is by no means a Bahá'í site. It's an academic site hosted at Michigan State University, and its editor, J.R.I. Cole, is a well-known critic of the Bahá'í Faith. I pulled these sources precisely because they were not Bahá'í.
Please provide a citation that can be followed-up on. This: "(Quoted from the 24. New History, pp. 420, 426, 427, Browne in J.R.A.S. 1889, pp. 996, 997, October 1892, p. 763.)" is un-intelligible.
Do you mean this: [3]? It seems to jibe with the text in the article; but it'll have to be noted in the article that the document translated by Browne is in Mirza Yahya's handwriting, and that Browne took him at his word that this copy was authentic. Then let the reader decide for themselves its authenticity. MARussellPESE 22:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I've added a link that takes you to the JRAS page so you can see what this refers to. I've sent a message to them asking if it's possible to get a reprint of those articles to see for myself what they say. Finally what is your source that the copy Browne used was in Mirza's handwriting? Wjhonson 23:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
This thread continues and combines with "Sources" below.

[edit] A Traveller's Narrative

Shoghi's "reprint" with notes is not sufficient. Only the original work is sufficient for research purposes. I have not yet reviewed Shoghi's version, but I believe there are substantial differences that non-Bahai's would object to. Knowing how other Baha'i sponsored works have undergone serious revision. Wjhonson 17:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

If you have referencing information for the original then that's fine. Find the original publishing information, where it was published, and an ISBN. As I recall, this was a book written by Abdu'l Baha and translated by E.G. Browne, with Browne's footnotes. I don't know how Shoghi Effendi fits into this. Cuñado - Talk 18:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
H-Baha'i is a reasonable source for information. I'd thought that a reference with an ISBN would be preferable. Both are now referenced. Wjhonson, your reference to "Shoghi" is unclear. MARussellPESE 18:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
There are 55 pages to the Introduction in the 1891 reference that do not appear in the reprint link. I haven't looked at the rest yet. But that is at least sufficient for why the original link is necessary. Wjhonson 00:27, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
And apparently over 100 pages of a supplementary appendix that the other source is not including. Very bizarre. Wjhonson 00:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

This is a bit silly. this site is clearly a web blog that anyone can post to. Sites like this have been consistently deleted as poor references. Is there a reason it keeps getting put back in? Cuñado - Talk 01:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

It is an accurate retort to the claim that the Will does not say what the quote says it does. You wanted a source, and now you keep deleting a source which more-or-less says what I said. Obviously this translation is by a person who can read the language so it's relevant. It's interesting to see how the translation you prefer is so wildly inconsistent with this one. Delete yours and I'll delete mine, otherwise they both stay. Wjhonson 01:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Minor misunderstanding between the two of you. Wjhonson is quoting a new translation of a relatively famous "appointment letter". It is often used to show that Azal was in fact the head of the Babis after the death of the Bab. This should not be considered his will which is what the H-Baha'i site translates (or at least, common Baha'i and Babi belief is that blog translation is not his will). Note for instance that the Bab says relatively little about his posessions (actually says relatively little about anything). I wouldn't like to say which has more say in what the Bab actually meant though.
A more common translation is provided by Miller[4] around page 73/74. You cannot use this link in wikipedia as the site is in breach of copyright (Millers book is all over the web, but the copyright does not allow it).
As a general thought I'd suggest we remove the blog link. Although it is a new translation it doesn't offer anything extra and most would not consider it his will. If people still want it, I'd suggest use a different link (ie non blog) and link it as something other than his will. Thoughts welcome -- Tomhab 02:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Fine, I've now created a new page just for the successor letter where the full quote now lives. And I've moved the quote from this page to that one. Also fixed the Miller link since the book is readable online and permission is granted by the publisher themselves. Wjhonson 02:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

You don't need to go to the Royal Asiatic Society for the "Appointment Letter". (The link provided doesn't actually point at anything on-topic.) Nor does one need to go to Miller, who's sources are not cited. It's already on H-Baha'i. Wjhonson, did you read the link above? It's a facsimile copy of the actual page 426 from Browne's The Tarikh-i-Jadid (New History) that you cited and reads that the document was "Copied by Subh-i-Ezal [sic] from the original document ...". The facing page states clearly "Facsimile of transcript made by Subh-i-Ezel [sic] of the document him as the Báb's successor. (original written by the Báb.)"

Cut-and-dried — the available copy of Mirza Yahya's "Appointment Letter" is in his own handwriting.

I'll edit the "Appointment Letter" selection to match this verifiable reference and include Browne's notes. MARussellPESE 04:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Miller does source his quotes, that is where I got the link to the Journal in the first place. From the new research into the JRAS I believe it's likely that the 1889 version has a facsimile of the original document. That would be in the Bab's own handwriting. I'm still waiting for a response from them. Wjhonson 15:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Browne didn't actually see the original. That the original is in the Bab's handwriting is Yahya's claim and Browne never verified it. That he often took Azali documents at face value without confirming against originals is one of the criticisms levelled at Browne during the later period of his work on the subject. (Balyuzi, Hasan (1893). E.G. Browne and the Bahá'í Faith. ISBN 0853980233.) Browne notes that the original is in Yahya's possession and not the RAS. There's no telling what that RAS citation says, so asserting, or suggesting, that this is a genuine copy in the Bab's handwriting is unsupported. MARussellPESE 16:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Your assertion that Browne did not see the original is unsupported. In fact Miller, who has evidently read the Journal article, states that the original was sealed with the Bab's own seal. And Browne states that the original in the Bab's handwriting is in Mirza's possession. Browne is usually very exact in the statements he makes. The way to tell what the JRAS has, is to view the JRAS article. Wjhonson 16:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Browne is usually very exact in his statements, which is why I'd take him at his word that the original was in Yahya's possesion and not his. His translation is of the document that Yahya wrote himself and sent to Browne. There's no evidence that Browne ever saw another copy, otherwise he'd have translated that one ¿no?, which supports the assertion that "didn't actually see the original".

That there's controversy over which document(s) are authentic is well-documented with respect to the Will in Manuchehri's Study. [5] These controversies were widespread and involved many documents. Charges that Bahá'ís over the years have supressed these, and that this is evidence of malfeasance on their part, ignores the fact that it's really not the Bahá'í community's responsibility to maintain Azalí documents any more than it's the job of a Sunní madrassah to maintain a Shía library.

Miller is, at best, a secondary source. His background as a Christian missionary does not suggest that he'd recognize the Báb's seal as such unless he were told what it was. Nor does Miller's book provide another translation of the "appointment letter", except Browne's, which is already discussed. This vitriolic book, along with Maulana Muhammad Ali's polemic, at best document the controversy as well as the authors' biases. We need to push till we find reliable primary sources for these citations. MARussellPESE 19:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I linked Miller because the link you provided above because the web version of Browne's book seemed to miss out the appendix with the translation. I didn't see the GIF.
Although I've always noted scheticism over this (and other) letters by the Bab from Baha'is, I've never seen someone quote something saying "its wrong" so....... until someone finds a source saying its not genuine, we should link it. Besides it doesn't say anything that Baha'is are ashamed of. Shoghi Effendi always said that Mirza Yahya was appointed leader of the Babis. -- Tomhab 20:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Miller, does not state that he *saw* the seal, so whether he could or couldn't recognize it is irrelevant. He states that the letter has the seal of the Bab. And he cites his source as that JRAS article. So I would have to believe, that Browne states this in that very article, otherwise why would Miller state it and cite that article? Browne also, independent of that article (so evidently in two places) states that the document is in the Bab's own handwriting. So apparently stating that in at least two seperate places. Wjhonson 20:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Appointment section

For the record, Wjhonson has characterized this discussion as an edit war over, apparently my, unwillingness to "face the fact that the Bab nominated Mirza [Yahya] as his successor", and the quibbling over sources as evidence of that. This is patently false. It's generally accepted that Yahya was the successor — even I do.

I am the one who actually added the "Appointment" section, took the trouble to do the reasearch to add a reliable source, and copy the entire letter word-for-word, so as to update Wjhonson's work. [6] Wjhonson's own research led him to quote a book with the wrong source for this [7] I update this and am accused not wanting to "face the fact"?

What's not generally accepted is whether or not The Báb referred to Yahya as "God". (I wish Wjhonson would slow down and read the discussion above, or the study of the primary sources, on the Will.) There is legitimate and open controversy over which version(s) are correct. And again, I'm the one who did the research, dug up a reputable source that documents the primary sources, and presented both sides, even quoting Yahya's version in full.

Wjhonson also laments that we are (Do I read "I am"?) not willing to consult original sources when I'm the one who's dug up original facsimilies on a reputable academic site maintained by a noted critic of the Bahá'í Faith. Miller's and Maulana Muhammad Ali's work are at-best secondary sources and kept on religious apologetic sites, but these seem to be the principle (only) sources that Wjhonson considers authoritative.

Totally aside, Wjhonson, Mirzá isn't a name — it's an honorific.

MARussellPESE 19:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

First it was not I my friend but Occamy who so characterized it as an "edit war" on my own user:talk page. Secondly, when certain persons, blindly delete my additions *without* even reading the sources which I quote *and* link to, that tells me something right there. I use Mirza because that is how he was called. I have no problem with you moving the page, if you want to move everything that links to it as well. Wjhonson 19:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
What number am I on.. fourthly? The "Will" and the "Successor Letter" are apparently not the same thing. Although Maulana calls the Letter the Will, another posted (I forget who) believes they are not the same thing. Certainly the translation provided on the Will does not match, whatsoever, to the translations provided in at least three places (although perhaps derivative). Fifthly, Browne visited many times. He did not just sit in his study and collect letters. So he had the opportunity to see for himself if the Succession Letter were actually in the Bab's handwriting or not. Wjhonson 19:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Lastly, I did not say you. There is at least one person who is using a pop-up tool to delete my additions. Without any comment. And there is at least one more who does not take the time to read the sources before blindly deleting my cogent points. Wjhonson 19:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I first coined the term "Successor Letter" as I've never seen it termed his "Will" before. Besides any problem of something being genuine (both of these have small question marks over their heads as the original sources are quite rare), there appear to be two distinct letters. If you read his "will" it is many verses long. The "succession letter" says very little except "hold" and "enjoin" the laws of the Bayan. Certainly nothing about completing it. -- Tomhab 20:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
After vandalizing the page three times as an anon user [8] [9] [10], you added the quote from the Bab's letter and said "I will now watchlist this page and instantly revert any attempt to remove this quote" before anyone had even deleted it. You have imagined some ideological battle is going on and the Baha'is editing the page have not even engaged you.
Baha'i sources agree that Mirza Yahya was appointed to lead the Babis, there is no dispute here or some hidden agenda. Mirza Yahya was also told to be obedient to HWGSMM, and he was given the authority to finish the Bayan with His permission. Your attempts to dig up dirt have led you to using a mass murderer as your primary source. You have used a strange patchwork of online sources, which all the other contributors have spent energy fixing up, adding proper formatting and ISBN's. Please be civil. In your attempt to counter a perceived POV you have gone to the opposite extreme. In trying to prop up Mirza Yahya you deleted the reference that he was only 19 when appointed, and the important fact that he was clearly instructed in the letter that he was not HWGSMM, and that he was to follow Him when He appears. In my case it was your distorted view of the facts, combined with poor referencing that led me to revert. Cuñado - Talk 20:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I have no idea what you're talking about. I was not even active on this site during the month of December. At least not in the Baha'i section. Don't believe me? View my history for yourself. Withdraw your slander. I had posted the long quote and it was removed. So I put it back. (After enough of these sort of new-speak deletions, I get annoyed.) It's completely relevant to the issue, and people should be able to make up their own minds about it without censorship.Wjhonson 20:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
OK I jumped to conclusions. I admit it. The edits I mentioned were very similar to your first edit on the page. Cuñado - Talk 21:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Cuñado, I can't follow what you're talking about either. I don't think that this is helping.

Okay, Wjhonson. You intended no offense — none taken. I hope likewise. However, you may want to take a look at your posts to my, other's and various articles', talk pages with an eye to the, frankly, beligerent tone you've taken. As Cuñado points out, your edit summaries "revert the complete dishonest distortion of cunado" and "I will now watchlist this page and instantly revert any attempt to remove this quote" are cases in point. Also, you seem to be the first person to have referrd to others' edits as vandalism here.

Also, ten edits in one hour on one page are incredibly hard for others to follow. (They're probably also hard on Wikipedia's servers.) Could you make edits all at once please?

I think you're running into the Recent Changes Patrol when you're getting reverted without discussion. Editing heavily and frequently on the same page, and noting them all as minor even when you're adding/deleting passages, will very likely attract their attention. Having completely dis-interested editors revert your work is a clue that your conduct, if not your contributions, are out of the norm.

I think you'll find the Bahá'í editors more than willing to log-roll with you, if you take the time to discuss changes on Talk pages and come with sources we can discuss. MARussellPESE 21:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

OK I found the citation finally, it's already online. I edited the article and added the citation and fixed the verbage since it's not clear that Browne did see the original, and did state that it was in the Bab's own handwriting. I believe the RAS is sending me a copy of it as well. Wjhonson 04:05, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources (II)

Continued from "Sources"

I think you'll have a real problem relying Maulana Muhammad Ali's History and Doctrines here. If he can't get the Will and Appointment letter straight, which apparently even Miller can, that seriously call into question it's credibility. That and it's still a secondary source where the H-Bahai documents aren't. There's a lot there that you'll find interesting; and you won't have to rely on polemicists like these.

I'm familiar with Browne's travels in, and impressions of, Persia. I read Momen's Selections from the Writings of E.G. Browne on the Bábí and Bahá'í Religions. ISBN 0853982465. last year which includes his own diaries of his 1887-1888 sojourn and several other works. That year was the only period of time he spent there, and he went there fresh out of school to study the Báb and the Bábís. He'd never heard of "Bahá'ís" and didn't much care for the pacifist tone Bahá'u'lláh was taking with his works. At that time the "genuine" Bábís were Azalís as the vast majority of Bábís were by then Bahá'ís. To Browne, Bahá'ís were not interesting.

Afterwards the bulk of his research was in European libraries and through correspondence with acquaintances he'd made there. He was desparate in the middle of his career to obtain anything he could. A lot of these correspondents were Azalis, including Yahya, so his research was skewed even given his best efforts. Baluzi ( E.G. Browne and the Bahá'í Faith. ISBN 0853980233.), another Bahá'í historian, confronts this directly and documents the issues.

So, again, that's why it's easy for me to say that if Browne had had a copy of this letter in the Báb's handwriting, he'd have translated that. It's absence is significant and doesn't provide independent confirmation (Browne's) that the Báb called Yahya "God". The contradictory versions of the "Will" provide no confirmation either.

I don't have any problem with the "Appointment" section being here or in "Baha'i/Babi split". It's probably better there.

I don't think that the Miller and Maulana Muhammad Ali references are appropriate in the face of the primary sources on H-Baha'i and they should be removed and replaced with those. MARussellPESE 21:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Except that both Miller and Maulana cite *new* sources that are not in H-Baha'i as you can see. Or at least are not readily obvious. I've posted at least four that had to be looked up to verify they even exist. Wjhonson 21:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
To me, if Miller's or Maulana Muhammad Ali's citation are not obvious that certainly makes them questionable sources. That's why this takes so much work tracking down primary sources. Can you post the citations here. You and I can both look through H-Bahai. MARussellPESE 21:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't even know what that means. The Miller book is online, he cites his sources, they are right there. For Maulana I did cite the source as I mentioend again. He cites for the Letter the Introduction to Naqtutal, which apparently is wrong, but I did find that Miller cites the Journal which seems accurate enough to at least look into. Wjhonson 22:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

You will want to review Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Both are secondary sources because they aren't the original documents. They quote or cite the original, or primary, sources. The reliability of secondary sources is always a concern as one is relying on the author/editor to be reliable free of bias. One could hardly say that of either Miller or Maulana Muhammad Ali. Both had axes to grind.

You have made a lot of edits on these pages and haven't cited that many sources beyond these two, if then. You've obviously got something to say. But your contributions will have far more staying power, and make stronger contributions if you can back them up with reliable and verifiable sources. MARussellPESE 20:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

As does Abdul and Shoghi don't you think? Their entire reputation rides on deriding their predecessors. Since *this* page and others are about their predecessors, then those sources are themselves pov. I don't think you can honestly dispute this. You want only the Baha'i spin without anything to counter it. That is pov. So Miller and Maulana have to stay if you're going to be quoting "God Passes By" and other words. That is called balance. I did review reliable and secondary sources are quite fine. Esp are the primary sources are spun by whoever it seems feels like publishing them, as we've seen already in a number of instances. Wjhonson 08:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Nobody's asserting that God Passes By is a primary source. I would submit Nabil's Narrative as it's a personal account. One uses secondary sources when primary ones aren't available, so using Miller's or Maulana Muhammad Ali's citations of documents available elsewhere is what's weak. MARussellPESE 17:01, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you could clarify what you are intending by "successor". It's apparent that even Baha'i sources state that he "led" the group. Leading is a form of succession by itself. And it's well-known that he added to the Bayan. I haven't read a Baha'i source which claims that these additions are Satanic, just that they don't really read the Bayan anymore. Not that it wasn't authoritative when he wrote his additions. Wjhonson 18:30, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I'm trying to NPOV your edit of 03:28, 8 February 2006 with the endearing Edit summary: "I will now watchlist this page and instantly revert any attempt to remove this quote". This issue of "succession" was already addressed in Bahá'í/Bábí split and "Him whom God shall make manifest" (HWGSMM). You brought it here.
Yahya was and is generally taken to have been appointed to lead the Bábís in the interregnum between the Báb's death and the coming of HWGSMM. Parenthetically, I don't buy Manuchehri's commentary on Verses 10-12 of the "Will": "Attaining Azal’s presence is equivalent to attaining the presence of God. ... " [11] These verses don't mention Yahya, but rather say, in Manuchehri's own translation and after he's made it clear that the letter was addressed to Yahya: "Whoever attains the presence of the Throne of your Lord, has in effect attained the presence of God, ..." Attain whose presence? Seems clear that it's Yahya's Lord, not Yahya himself.
Browne used the term "successor". However, as a "Manifestation of God", the Báb's successor was often read as HWGSMM by Bábís; and the assertion that nobody else claimed to be HWGSMM is not true. This was actually the foundation of Yahya's claim to be HWGSMM. According to Baluzi, "Hardly any of these self-styled 'Manifestations of God' were men of guile or greed or ambition. As tensions increased their number rose to the high figure of twenty-five." (H.M. Balyuzi, E.G. Browne and The Baha'i Faith, p. 42) (Emphasis added). Both articles highlight the major ones. The question of leader v. successor is not a small one to Bábí history and shouldn't be duplicated here on a biography page.
I think this whole section should be edited down significantly, stating that Yahya was taken to be appointed to lead the Bábís until the HWGSMM should step forward. And provide a main article link to Bahá'í/Bábí split. These points are raised better there as they involve far more people than Yahya and Baha'u'llah.
My current edit anticipates such a move. MARussellPESE 19:33, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Divine Showdown

What is your source for this tale of the divine showdown that Yahya Nuri wouldn't show up to? Wjhonson 09:16, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I was lazy by copying from Cole's "A Brief Biography of Baha'u'llah" [12]; he uses the following sources for the whole paragraph, but I have not checked them: (Baha'u'llah, Lawh-i Nasir, Majmu`ih-yi Matbu`ih, pp. 166-202; Dahaji, pp. 35-38, 283-85; Salmani, tr., pp. 42-48, 93-105; Qazvini, tr., pp. 19-27). --Occamy 14:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Definitely in these: E.G. Browne, Materials for the Study of the Babi Religion, An Epitome of Babi and Bahai History To A.D. 1898, Translated from the Original Arabic of Mirza Muhammad Jawad of Qazvin, page 18 [[13]]
My Memories of Bahá'u'lláh, by Ustád Muhammad-`Alíy-i Salmání. pages 94-95 [[14]] --Occamy 16:56, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Yahya did "refuse" to go according to both sources:
"In short, soon after he [Baha'u'llah] had entered the Mosque, Mír Mubammad arrived saying, 'Mírzá Yahyá asks to be excused because to­day it is not possible for him to present himself. He therefore begs you to appoint another day, and to write a note to this effect, signed and sealed, that whoever does not present himself at the appointed time is an impostor.' ... Some days elapsed after this, and they gave him no such note, nor did they appear at the trystingplace" (E.G. Browne, Materials for the Study of the Babi Religion, "Open rupture between Baha’u’llah and Subh-i-Azal, Aug. 26, 1867) (Emphasis added.)
"Before noon the next day, Bahá'u'lláh stepped out of the andarún, and the revelation was upon Him. "No one shall accompany me." He said, and none did, except for Mír Muhammad. ... Bahá'u'lláh went to that mosque, and there was no Azal to be seen. ... Bahá'u'lláh waited there about one hour. No Azal. Mír Muhammad went and told him, 'Look here, fellow, you come!'
And Azal said, 'Go on back. I will be there.' Back and forth went Mír Muhammad, two or three times. Still no Azal. And his falsity was exposed for all to see." {Ustád Muhammad-`Alíy-i Salmání, My Memories of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 95)
The statement that Yahya "neglected" to go suggests that he didn't know about it. No sources state this. In fact, most point to this episode as being Yahya's challenge. MARussellPESE 20:33, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry (again), you are correct. --Occamy 13:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citing Maulana and bayanic.com

These references are sloppy. The other references note page numbers and give links where available. Merely saying "Maulana says so-and-so" is of next to no help when back-checking. Maulana Muhammad Ali's book is a noted anti-Baha'i polemic (MacEoin, The Babi and Baha'i Religions: An Annotated Bibliography, "Anti-Baha'i Polemics", #413) and routinely either makes unsubstantiated claims or exclusively cites Browne's various works. Without a page number it is not possible to check which is which. As an aside, MacEoin notes that Miller is flat-out biased (ibid., #639), and he, Miller, uses basically the same approach as Maulana Muhammad Ali: make unsubstantiated claims or selectively quote Browne. Both are derivitive works and we should be citing Browne where they would. The rest is unverifiable.

For example, the statment "nobody questioned his leadership" is weasley and unsubstantiated. "Leadership" is a tricky concept here. As already stated, and sourced, in the article, Mirza Yahya was MIA almost throughout the Baghdad period and Baha'u'llah was one of the community's defacto leaders. The "Leader" of the Babi's was to be HHGWMM after some interregnum which, every source agrees, Mirza Yahya was to oversee. Howevre, several men, including Mirza Yahya, advanced such claims evenutally, so there were in fact several rival claimants to the "leadership" of the Babi community. "Interim leader" or "leader in the interim" are far more accurate. The only thing I can find in Maulana is that nobody questioned the appointment as interim leader (Maulana Muhammad Ali, History and Doctrines of the Babi Movement, p. 28) and that is not sourced. Maulana Muhammad Ali then goes on (ibid., pp. 33-37) to reiterate that Yahya was to step aside for HHGWMM and then lists several claimants to that role. (These rivals are independently verified by other sources.) This is hardly "uncontested leadership."

Regarding Mirza Yahya's successor, Maulana Muhammad Ali, (ibid. p. 45) merely cites the exact same sections from Browne already in the article, including the spelling of his name. Of course he wouldn't have anything to say about the successor's conversion away from the Babi Faith — because the successor was the son of the one who renounced the Faith.

Bayanic.com sources don't meet wikipedia verifiability policies. References are to have been published, or self-referencing if "not contradicted by reliable, third-party published sources". Its claims that there were no successors is so contradicted: Browne's, as already noted in the article. MARussellPESE 15:02, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

There is no requirement on wiki to cite page numbers. Read the source yourself, it's crystal-clear. Your laziness is not a requirement on my part to do your research for you. Second, the successor did not renounce the faith. You can't set-up a strawman and then blow him down, that trick doesn't work on me. Third, bayanic sources do meet the verifiability section. They are published. Your statement that they are not is without any foundation. Fourth, Baha'i sources themselves state quick clearly that Yayha was the leader of the movement for this time period. Your lack of interest in researching your own history, is not a requirement on me to do it for you. Wjhonson 17:18, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
One more thing. I used Miller in creating this page, so Miller is a Reference. Not only is he a Reference, he is a Source. His book gives primary references NOT in any other work, as far as I'm aware. That makes him a primary source. Perhaps you want a new war over that? Wjhonson 17:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Miller was a Christian preacher who wrote the book in an attempt to debunk the religion, and likewise Maulana wrote his to defend his own version of the Mahdi. Moreover, both were written decades after any of the events they recall, and neither of them did any research outside of Browne and other sources that we have available, so they are hardly even secondary sources. The fact that they are used so extensively by anti-Baha'i polemic is a testimony to the depths of ignorance that people will stoop to dig up some dirt.
I agree with MARussellPESE on all accounts. Web sites should not be used if they are contradicted by actual sources, and primary sources should be used whenever possible. Browne can be considered a primary source, because he actually met Mirza Yahya and Baha'u'llah and had an intimate relationship with many Babis. But even his writings are heavily weighted on the Mirza Yahya side, so he is not the ultimate authority. There are numerous primary sources on the Baha'i side of things. Cuñado - Talk 17:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Wjhonson, you're kidding right? Just about every paragraph has detailed citations, including pages, so that anybody can review them. I'm not doing the research?
  1. No, there's no requirement on wikipedia to cite page numbers. That'd just be courteous. You might please consider it. (Harvard referencing and the Chicago Manual of Style do though.)
  2. Which successor are you talking about? Hadiy-i-Dawlat-Abadi or his son. Both are identified as "successors". The father did, as cited. Nobody knows about the son. There's actually no reference to him beyond the reference in Browne. We don't even seem to have his name.
  3. Please provide an ISBN or publishing house for the bayanic.com material. How is stating that they aren't published without foundation when they don't even say so on their own website?.
  4. Nobody's questioning that he was the "titular" leader, but all the sources also say that he was AWOL. "Interim" leader is the most correct, and even Maulana backs that up. (Ref. the transfer to Baghdad and Baghdad years.)
  5. Obviously you used Miller, and haven't provided any citations at all for it. So nobody can check to see if he cites any primary sources on-point. It's entirely un-verifiable on that score.
Arguing that this article without Miller/Maulana Muhammad Ali is a biased Baha'i character assassination is specious. Only one source is Baha'i and is only there because Browne has no information on it. There was a lot he didn't have as he lamented for much of his career. All, repeat all, of the rest are from academic, even anti-Baha'i sources.
I'm not asking you to do my research. I'm asking you, and have for some time, to provide enough data so that people can confirm yours, without having to dig through pages and pages of a book trying to dig up what you might be trying to add. It's courteous. My sources, with their page numbers, are right there. MARussellPESE 18:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Courteous is a two-way street. You remove my research instead of simply asking for a citation. That is not courteous. You can review other pages to see that the courteous method is to post a citation tag on the statement. Wjhonson 21:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Dude, the burden of proof is on you to provide your references. This is a controversial subject that deserves careful treatment. We've bent over backwards to use any source other than Baha'i ones. This discussion goes way back with you. You've had ample time to find the citations and share them.

Calling me lazy for not being willing to dig through over a hundred pages of text to tease out some comment of yours because you can't be bothered to list a page number is beyond belief really. It is easier to revert apparently than to dig up a reference and improve the content. MARussellPESE 21:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Wjhonson: Very much improved. Thank you. Now individual points can be addressed. You've also added some good material. Mirza Burzurg indeed was not a "Prince", and clarifying that exposes an item of the typical Persian hyperbole of the period that crept into an awful lot of everybody's works. Nice touch. (See, I don't reject Miller out-of-hand.) MARussellPESE 06:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Cunado you are simply wrong. Miller states quite clearly if you'd bother to read it, that he was given over eleven *hundred* pages of original manuscript pages. Some of the statements in his work, as far as I know, do not exist outside of his work. And whether he is partisan or not is irrelevant. Everything published by the Baha'is is partisan as well. Putting all sources together is called balance or npov. Only relying on *approved* Baha'i sources isn't balance. Read the first few pages of the Miller book I cited, see for yourself what he does or doesn't say. He read Persian and Arabic himself, so he was quite able to understand the original manuscripts he was reading. Wjhonson 17:09, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
On another note, Subh-i-Azal's appointment as leader is also detailed in the New History link I posted. Mirza Jani wrote in 1851 or 1854, *before* the Babi/Baha'i split. His work is quoted extensively in the New History by Hamadani. Read what he says about the appointment, etc. It's very interesting. Wjhonson 17:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] page title

This page title should be moved to Subh-i-Azal. Mirza Yahya Nuri was his given name and Subh-i-Azal was his title, so it should be one or the other but not both. Considering that most pages use the title, it should be Subh-i-Azal, and note that it should have two dashes (currently says Subh-i Azal). Any comments before I change it? Cuñado - Talk 06:09, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Go for it. --Occamy 10:33, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
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