Talk:Steven Dale Green
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[edit] Merge of a section of this article with main article of the Mahmudiyah incident
The Mahmudiyah incident section (only) of this article should be merged with the main Mahmudiyah incident article. Repeating the details of the incident here is redundant, especially considering that new details of the incident are emerging by the day, making it a current news story. Of course it makes sense to briefly mention what the Mahmudiyah incident entailed, but a prompt referral to the main Mahmudiyah article should then follow.
Steven Dale was one of 5 soldiers charged for the rape and murder. He the most well known because he was charged in federal court. The other 4 are in Iraq, away from the public eye. It seems a disproportionate degree of credit is being given to Steven Dale only on account of his greater public notoriety. Were the US military to release details of the other 4, the press would be all over them as well.
This article can well be dominated by details of Green's personal and professional life, however the Mahmudiyah incident should be given it's own space as Steven Dale was one of several players involved in that event.
This is akin to having separate articles for Lee Harvey Oswald, and the Kennedy assasination --User:Drpak 18:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] age of victim : ID card proves age
The ID card was obtained by Reuters. I added it in the main article . Her age was 14. --Drpak 15:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] age of victim
While it's almost certainly not 25 as stated by the military, it is not yet clear whether Abeer Hamza was 14, 15 or some other age. There are still conflicting accounts. Stating her age definitively here is unverifiable information and hence not permitted.
- Her uncle appears to describe her as a 15-year old here.
- The hospital apparently believes she is 14, as we see here.
There are also somewhat less credible reports of 20 and 25 floating around. Which is it?
If anyone intends to keep inserting a definitive number, please show uncontroverted evidence of Abeer Hamza's age here. Until then, why not just sidestep the age issue in the beginning by using the equally accurate "villager." --Birdmessenger 16:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
The photo of her ID card shown on TV indicated she would have turned 15 in August. That is "verifiable."Edison 04:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Mom's age
- FWIW, if her mom's age is really 34 that puts an upper limit on her age, and she was almost certainly a teenager. I don't think there is any problem with reporting the ages reported in other sources, so long as the source is properly cited. -- Geo Swan 20:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed, (though some sources are still mentioning the possibility of her being 20 years old--not impossible even if the mother was 34) so long as we don't definitively declare her to be a "15-year-old" or "14-year-old". And we have this in there: Military officials give her age as 20, while the affidavit filed in the case describes her as a 25-year-old;[3] however, an Iraqi official has said that she was only 15 years old.[4] An Iraqi doctor at the Mahmoudiya hospital has stated she was just 14.[5], which covers the age issue well, I think. --Birdmessenger 21:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
The affidavit does not describe her as 25. It describes the description of her by the accused as 25.
It is clear she is 14-years-old by US and western definitions. Her birth certificate and death certificate both give date of birth as August 19, 1991. http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/07/09/soldiers.charged/index.html In much of the world this would be called 15 as in 15th year of life, by US standards and those employed on wikipedia this would be 14.
The incorrect attribution of age as 25 or 20 on varous miliary investigative reports is not relevent now that her official birth records have been confirmed.
Her age is relevent in terms of legal issues and in terms of noteworthiness.
The age of 25 derives from the original investigators combat strees debriefing of the accused http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/iraq/usgreen63006cmp4.html. It is what they asserted they believed her age to be. Without prejudice to wehter the acused were lying about what they thought her age was, it is the only basis for that number. The age of 21 derives from initial visual examination of a burned and mutilated body which included a crushed skull. (I will stick to objective facts here with one exception that I think it is possible the early investigaotrs tookt eh number 25, looked at the body, were certain it was younger and split the difference between what the body age looked like and the nubmer 25 they had been given by the debriefers, and split the difference).
There is no other basis for these numbers. The actual age of 14 by US and wikipedia standards (15 by Iraqi standards and ) derives from official birth records.
The initial mistake of the age is due to statmeents by the accused murderers. the second is due to a preliminary examination. Whatever reasons lie behind that there is no reason on Wikipeida to keep repeating these incorrect inflated ages, since raping and murdering a 14 year old is an aggravating factor in the UCMJ, in civilian criminal law and in public opinion (which is relevent in a newsworthy case) as to the heinousness of a crime. 72.75.63.86 01:09, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, that's more than enough for me.--Birdmessenger 01:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Greene's discharge from the Army for 'anti-social personality disorder' (prior to the discovery of his alleged part in the crime) may be an indication that Greene is a Sociopath.
He deserves a fair trial-- but that discharge may tell us something very important about Greene. Sociopaths have no empathy for others-- and they lack any conscience. They often look like the rest of us-- but they are very different creatures and are capable of ruthless behavior.
Sean7phil 17:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] I served with this guy.
He was an all around crappy soldier. This story isn't much of a shock. Anyway, this was his second tour in Iraq. The first one was from March 2003-February 2004.
