Talk:Steve Jobs

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I'm sure Steve Job's salary isn't 1 dollar.

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Steve Jobs is a former good article candidate. There are suggestions below for which areas need improvement to satisfy the good article criteria. Once the objections are addressed, the article can be renominated as a good article. If you disagree with the objections, you can seek a review.

Date of review: October 23, 2006
News This article has been cited as a source by a media organization. See the 2005 press source article for details.

The citation is in: Rob Enderle (April 25, 2005). "IPod's Dirty Little Secret and the Power of the Internet". TechNewsWorld.

Archive
Archives
  1. January 2004 – December 2005

Contents

[edit] Protected

I've protected the page to deal with heavy vandalism in the past few days, I presume mostly to MacWorld and the announcement of the MacBook Pro. WikiFanatic 03:14, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't this article be Semi-protected instead, this way all the Windows fanboys won't be able to vandalize the page, while the Apple fanboys can go and improve it (if windows fanboys don't have Wikipedia accounts and Mac fanboys do and assuming as always that all the apple fanboys are creative and well-meaning) --Opspin 17:17, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Salary needs updating as I think $1usd is a little on the low side.
No, that is his correct salary. That doesn't include his stock "awards" and his personal net worth. reference. --Marty Goldberg 16:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

That is right, he only earns $1usd a year.

I'd like to see something changed in the 1st paragraph. It says that Jobs was "pushed aside" in 1985. The verb seems negative towards that movement and therefore POV. I'd suggest "ousted" instead. Repetition 14:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

And ousted doesn't sound just as negative? --Marty Goldberg 16:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, if we agree that "pushed aside" is not good then what would be a better word? How about "lost a power struggle"? Repetition 02:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Steve Jobs should be added to Category:American college dropouts.

[edit] Returned from India "bald", not bold

"After Steve's spiritual trip to India, he returned to America bold and wearing traditional Indian wear" (Early years, 4th paragraph, 1st sentence) should read "...America 'bald' and wearing...". It's little things like this that makes Wikipedia appear less than legitimate in the eyes of mainstream media and the reference book/libraries communities. anonymous/141.153.152.25

[edit] Edits needed

Since the page is currently locked to prevent vadalism, can someone at some point make the following minor edit: change the link in the first paragraph from "Toy Story series" to "Toy Story" (i.e. "series" shouldn't be part of the link). --Hux 05:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. But the article doesn't appear to be protected... --bbatsell | « give me a ring » 05:22, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Pixar has now been bought by Disney, according to Norwegian media. But I just found out that I can't edit this article - I haven't edited anything in wikipedia for a while so these changes are new to me.

I don't know why, but the article was semi-protected. It wasn't even listed at Wikipedia:Protected page, so I have unprotected it. Mushroom 09:15, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I suggest the following additions. The big reasons why the Apple II became such a smash hit was, besides the beautiful plastic case and the internal modular design, the invention of the disk drive and the spreadsheet program called Visicalc. The disk drive was a huge leap over the cassette tape -- the latter was sequential and if it hiccuped, the whole tape had to be reread. As to Visicalc, that program quickly became a standard for businesses -- no more need for paper spreadsheets with their constant rippling corrections. As Visicalc grew in businesses, so did Apple II. I won't write here anymore, but I ask someone to consider this and perhaps update the article accordingly. I'm not sure if the disk drive was a Jobs or Woz idea. 24.225.133.155 02:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mona Simpson is a half-sister?

Is Mona Simpson really 100% biological sister of Steve Jobs. The reason I'm questioning this. I came across this Salon.com interview of Mona Simpson. An excerpt of the interview: ... All right, your half-brother, Steve Jobs [co-founder of Apple Computers]. I tried again to see another outside source that is saying this. It is the official Amazon.com review (non customer but an employee) of a Mona Simpson book saying, "...Mona Simpson's half-brother and the founder of Apple Computers" --J. Nguyen 01:12, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Ms. Simpson is a full sister of Mr. Jobs. Both her parents are the same people as both of his biological parents. See iCon for further info.Alan 01:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How much was Woz share of the Atari bonus

The article currently contains this text:

He made a deal with Stephen Wozniak: the bonus would be split evenly between them, if Woz could create a circuit board with a minimal number of chips. ... At the time, Jobs told Wozniak that Atari had only given them $500 (rather than $5000), and that Wozniak's share was thus $350.

So, if they agreed to split the bonus evenly and Jobs told Woz that he got $500 -- wouldn't half of that be $250, not $350? Something then is wrong... is the $500 wrong or the $350 wrong? --dharris

-- See: http://www.woz.org/letters/general/91.html

[edit] Why is this here?

"In an interview in the book What the Dormouse Said: How the 60s Counterculture Shaped the Personal Computer, Markoff gets Apple CEO Steve Jobs on the record talking about how taking LSD was one of the most important influences in his life"

The sentence doesn't even have puncuation, and I really do not think it belongs in the article.

I fixed it and added the reference. He's stated repeatedly that his experiences have been extremely important influences on his life, so they're as deserving of inclusion of anything else. - zambaretzu


[edit] Peer review follow up

Greeting all. A while ago there was a peer review request made for this article. Having done a fairly extensive review (Wikipedia:Peer_review/Steve_Jobs), I was disappointed not to see any responses to the review I conducted. I agree this article should be featured sometime and would like to know what has been done following the review. Thank you. -Fermion 09:16, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Arab father

I put back the Arab father bit because in fact he is periodically mentioned as an notable Arab-American, so the source of the Arab descent is relevant, plus not everybody in Egypt is Arab (could be Turkish or Nubian). Stan 05:30, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

- See note above under 'Father'.

- Steve Jobs' biological father's name is Abdulfattah John Jandali. He immigrated to the US from Syria in 1952 (he was born in 1931).

Fredric Alan Maxwell, author of Bad Boy Ballmer has written what he calls an "authorized bio" (see his post on: http://www.mac360.com/index.php/mac360/comments/back_from_the_brink_five_days_with_tera/) of Jobs.

He has announced that he e-mailed him (Steve Jobs) a proposed chapter comparing his mercurial character to Jandali's. Jobs replied "Are you a nut case?" signing the oneliner "steve." The author then hit back at Steve saying "are you?". (As only Maxwell would know how that email was signed, presumably he entered this prior sentence).

Maxwell says that Jandali's "identity was outed, albeit obscurely, by Jobs’ sister, Mona Simpson". (see: http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=12575_0_4_0_C)


Vanity Fair Magazine was the first major publication ever to print the name of Jobs' birth father in October 2005. The strict US laws in respect to revealing details of the birth parents of adoptive children, resulting in many legal prosecutions in the fifties and the eighties, and still very much in effect in many states, were the main reason the name had not appeared in print in this connection before.

Adoption groups, where adult adopted children are still trying to loosen laws in order to discover their own birth parentage, have voiced their support for the magazine in printing just the name and not invading the privacy of the individual with further details.

But the name was out there. Lisa Brennan-Jobs, Steve's daughter, had published the patriarchal family name back in Fall 1999 in an article she wrote for the Harvard Advocate (though she spells it Jondali).

Enough.

[edit] Placeof Birth

I have changed the place of birth from Green Bay, Wisconsin to San Francisco, California (see: http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051204/GPG0101/512040591/1207/GPGnews).

His sister, Mona Simpson, was born in Green Bay. But not Jobs. - douga6

thanks for the corrections, guys. --Yoasif 04:04, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


- I believe he wasn't born in Green Bay, but the article here on Wikipedia says he was. Which means either the [http:// news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/worlds_most_powerful/3284811.stm BBC], the book iCon ^pdf, this book, several others, and off course CNN are wrong OR he wasn't born in Green Bay like WikiFanatic states. I could probably find out somehow, maybe by checking out the necessary information from the California Office of Vital Records (like the mentioned article did). Either convince me that this man was born in Green Bay by using certifiable references (hereby proving all the previously mentioned sources forgot to do some serious fact-checking), or state that this man was born in freaking San Francisco like so many others seem to believe. Oh and now suddenly nobody wants to pu(n)cture a hole in the universe? --Bruce 18:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


--California Office of Vital Records show he was indeed born in San Francisco in February, 1955. I corrected main article but someone changed it back to Green Bay. If you want it in his own words, see Smithsonian Oral History (http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/comphist/sj1.html#tools) - douga6


[edit] Jobs' quest for perfection destroyed NeXT's hardware division?

The article says, "Jobs ran NeXT with an obsession for perfection at any cost. This eye for detail ultimately destroyed NeXT's hardware division (rest of sentence omitted here)." That's a pretty bold statement, and it doesn't sound neutral to me. Perhaps this assertion should be elaborated upon (by someone who knows NeXT better than me!), so that it doesn't give the appearance of bias. --Tachikoma 16:56, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Change the First Paragraph of Early Years?

How would you all feel about changing the opening paragraph of Early Years?

For example:

“Steven Paul Jobs was born on February 24, 1955 in San Francisco, California. He was adopted shortly after birth by Paul & Clara Jobs of Mountain View, Santa Clara County, California.

Jobs went to Homestead High School “ etc.

In this way, we get out of the supermarket-tabloid type details which give the page a gossipy feel instead of what it should be – an overall picture of the man for an encyclopedia.


And yes, of course the details of his birth parents are relevant. But these can be covered in two lines at the bottom of the page, under Ancestry/Birth parentage. eg:

“His biological birth parents were an American graduate student, Joanne Carole Schieble, and a Syrian grad student, Abdulfattah John Jandali. At the time of birth, both were students at the University of Wisconsin in Madison, WI.” Or something similar.

Sorry to rock the boat, but I think this could be an improvement.


It might also be worthwhile checking out the Peer Review by Fermion on the Discussion page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/Steve_Jobs).

He/she says: “The entire personal life section can be improved. I fear that it reads too much like a dirt file on Steve Jobs, however, I would hate to see this information being lost to the public.”

They have a point. But it's up to you.- douga6


I agree, but I will take it a step further. I think the anecdote about Jobs, Woz, and the $5000 adds nothing to the article. The preceeding point about India is also vague. Why was he disturbing the other Atari employees? JGorton 03:10, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Annual salary

Something's up with the "Annual salary" field of his infobox. Currently it's: $1 USD (Apple), $52 USD (Pixar). I won't change it because I'm not sure what those values should be. --Spaceman85 15:07, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

  • I looked through the history and the first instance that looks somewhat normal that I could find is $401,000 + USD. Being bold and changing it back to this for now. --Spaceman85 15:11, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
    • I have reverted this change, since it is a widely known fact that Jobs' salary at Apple is $1, if you search this on Google you will find that is verifiable. He gets the rest of his money through stock options and bonuses. — Wackymacs 16:22, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Big Cut

I took it upon myself to follow the Be Bold mantra and slice a chunk off from the "Early Years." It was poorly written and offered little to nothing to the article as a whole, IMHO. If I'm out of line its revertable. :-) JGorton 00:58, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Ehh, what the hell? - Why remove an entire paragraph when it could be rewritten? That's not being bold, that's just being lazy and taking something out because its not good. — Wackymacs 08:05, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Net worth

Where's the $7.5 billion net worth figure from? It must be reverted to the last one if a reference cannot be found for this new figure. — Wackymacs 08:06, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

That figure is incorrect... assuming this is correct:
[Jobs] gets a only a slight boost in his stock holdings from about $3.87 billion at Pixar to $3.9 billion in Disney shares. Since Pixar stock started its spike in October, however, Jobs has seen his net worth increase by around $750 million.
resulting in about a net increase of about $1 billion just from Pixar. Apple's stock has gone up significantly in the last year as well, but not enough for a $4 billion spike in Jobs' net worth. I'd say it is closer to $4 billion than $7 billion or $3 billion. Of course, there is no real source on this as of right now. When does the Forbes wealthiest people issue come out in 2006? PaulC/T+ 16:33, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Of course, there are dissenting opinions also:
With Disney set to buy Pixar for $7 billion in stock, there will be two main beneficiaries.
The first, of course, is Steve Jobs, who stands to double his $3 billion net worth.
So, who knows what the actual figure is. PaulC/T+ 16:46, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I know about the Pixar-Disney deal but there still isn't any reference actually saying Steve Jobs is worth $7.4 billion, I'd say this is purely speculation - it should be reverted to the previous figure until Forbes issue a new 2006 list of billionaires - which unfortunately will probably be towards the end of this year, I think. — Wackymacs 16:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

-- The figure is 4.4 billion according to 2006 Forbes list. See: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/HEDB.html - douga6

[edit] Steve Jobs. The OTHER side...

Steve Jobs -

The general idea that hovers around the Steve Jobs image is that he is almost a God. He is the most omnipotent benevolent geek (even though he isnt strictly a Bill Gates geek) one could find... I contend that this is not true. The book iCon is very clear about this.

  1. He likes to show his power
  2. He used to have a tendency to cry whenever things went wrong
  3. He is Selfish
  4. He is obstinate

AND

  1. He himself is not the innovator behind Apple, Johnathon Ives and the Mac OS programmers are.

I wish to focus on the last one. In no way does he rightly deserve any praise particulary for any of the products that come out Apple. (And also in terms of Pixar i think its even clearer that he is in no way the innovator there.) Yes he can see what is viable, can help to perfect them in his own rude way. And yes he is an excellent face for Apple. But in no way is he the major innovator we all perceive him to be.

The article does a great job of his life, very objective (though laking in a few places) but not of him.... I feel that the controvosy section could be lengthened, and/or a section explaining the above matters could be included...

But i still hold that Steve Jobs is a great iCon - Crampy20

Mr. Jobs' greatness lies not in his ability to innovate, but in his leadership. Yes, he can be (and frequently is) abusive and abrasive, but he engenders a loyalty not often seen in CEOs of public companies. He may not do the actual innovation, but he spurs others on in a way no one else at Apple has ever done before. Alan 01:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jobs then travelled to India

"Jobs then travelled to India. He returned with his head shaved and wearing traditional Indian clothing. He also returned to his previous job at Atari, but he could only come to work when all the other designers had gone home, so that he didn't disturb the other employees."

Is this vandalism? It doesn't make much sense. Gazpacho 23:01, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

  • It isn't vandalism, and while I contend it needs work (ie: how did this effect Steve Jobs for the rest of his life, otherwise I don't see too many people looking for information on Steve Job's Indian phase as opposed to, oh, the Beatles) but that's the next section I'm trying to clean up. JGorton 20:09, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Basically it needs rewriting and a citation too. A book I have explains Steve's travel to India, its called Infinite Loop by Michael S.Malone. — Wackymacs 20:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disney Box

Why is the Disney, Co box at the bottom of the page? Yes, Jobs will sometime this year become a major shareholder, perhaps a Board member, and at that time it may contribute significantly to his net worth. But why not simply list the information on the page, link to Disney, and leave the box there? -- Gnetwerker 00:58, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Jobs sits on the board of directors at Pixar, now part of Disney. He's in the template if you look for him (close to the top).--HereToHelp 19:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
No, my point is that the Disney acquisition of Pixar is not yet complete, Pixar is not yet part of Disney, and Jobs is not yet on the Disney Board. This is all in the future. See WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_crystal_ball. -- Gnetwerker 01:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Uhhh... "Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation. All articles about anticipated events must be verifiable, and the subject matter must be of sufficiently wide interest that it would merit an article if the event had already occurred. In particular: Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place. If preparation for the event isn't already in progress, speculation about it must be well documented. " What is the problem with the Disney box? Jobs is going to be on their board. It is well documented and "the event is notable and almost certain to take place". PaulC/T+ 01:38, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Steve Jobs "No Layoffs" Promise (lie) to Employees & Racist Slurs

"Jobs' entanglement and connection to Apple's computer's long history of racism and harassment against minorities, or outright denial of employment was revealed on October 23 of 2001, when he made a corporate-wide live announcement to Apple Computer's employees claiming that there would be "No Layoffs for the next 2 years", ironically on the same day as the iPod announcement. However, less then a week later, dozens of ethnic minorities, many of East Asian, West Asian, and South Asian decent among others were retroactively terminated - many of whom had been harassed and isolated against federal laws. While Jobs' knowledge of this event was well known, he never explained his motivations for this action, which also involved people that worked directly for him. Later, during an Intel-sponsored conference, Mr. Jobs, who was present at the conference, uttered a racial slur directed at Asians in response to Intel's announcement of planned expansion of its Research and Development into Asia - claiming that Asians will simply use the opportunity to steal designs and trade secrets."

The information presented here is known by thousands of people - of course they will not actually come forward because they will be retaliated against. I am one of a brave few who will expose this. Apple's awyers already know who I am and they obviously won't do anything about it because these are Facts. Let me put it this way: Wikipedia is maintained by many apple employees, who create biographical articles about themselves and apple products, i guarantee that none of them will proclaim this info as false. --User:RememberOctober29 20:12, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

You need to go to a newspaper reporter, and not Wikipedia. Wikipedia does not publish original research, nor is it a tool or outlet for investigative journalism. To do so woudl remove any claim it has on being an encyclopedia and turn it into just another blog. If your accusations are true, your best venue is the public media, and not here. Once your charges are published -- even alleged -- in a reputable newspaper, they might have some claim to be here. Until then, you will need to find another vehicle. -- Gnetwerker 06:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Curious bystander here - what on earth is "West Asian" supposed to mean? Bwithh 05:51, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

That's been one of those well-intentioned but perhaps misguided PC terms for quite a while. It means Middle Eastern. See When is an Asian not an Asian?. -- Muffuletta 21:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

You don't know what West Asian is? Some basic lessons in Geography might help. Reading a book would also be helpful. I have added the exceprt again which was removed by one of the vandals. I do not see most of the other points mentioned in the article being varifiable with any given sources. I'd say this is racism and "layoffs" section is the most accurate and indisputable section in the article -- User:RememberOctober29 12:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I strongly question the motivations of several of the Moderators, not to mention editors on Wikipedia - while you claim that "facts must be backed up by sources" to everyone that posts something that your Gang does not want written here. Your behavior is indeed very gang-like and it tarnishes the reputation of Wikipedia as universal and impartial source of info. Reverted vandalism by "Gnetwerker" and his friends. User:LotsOfPProblems 0:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I strongly question that the two above comments were made by different people!--HereToHelp 00:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cite sources

I only just added my name to the Project Mac list, so I hesitate to pontificate, but... jeez-o-flip!, this article needs more direct citations! The article is long enough to generate one of those "longer than is preferable" warnings, yet there are only six direct citations (not counting the uncited references). I urge everyone who has contributed to the article to go back and add a reference to back up whatever information they've contributed, using footnote form and the appropriate templates. -- Muffuletta 21:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

You don't have to be a member to contribute (welcome, though)—you don't even have to logged in! Yeah, sources and reliability are some of the worst problems with Wikipedia.--HereToHelp 21:39, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Are Info box facts correct?

Am I right in presuming that any facts in the info box, on the upper right hand side of the main Jobs page, are absolutely correct. And because of their prominent position they would not be there unless they had been thoroughly checked out?

I ask this because I am writing a paper on Jobs and I can't afford to make an error about his birth place and where he grew up. All the text references I can find, including four different books, plus the vital records office in San Francisco, show that he was born in that city (San Francisco). And that he moved at the age of 4 or 5, with his adopted parents, to Santa Clara County and grew up in what is now known as Silicon Valley.

However in the info box on the main page it says just the opposite. The earlier "Born in San Francisco, California" has been deleted. And in its place is: "Grew up in San Francisco" - and I can not find anything at all that supports this statement. Will someone please give me the citations/references that were examined before this was put in the info box? As I say, I can't afford to make a mistake about this. Many thanks, Wallnut

It's Wikipedia and not a featured article, you think we know? I found this but it's not very helpful. Just google stuff: [1]. If a bunch of sources agree, trust the "coalition".--HereToHelp 03:24, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
The article needs to be fixed. The infobox now contradicts the main text. Bwithh 03:28, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

-See No. 15, "Place of Birth" above. Plus the two citations, one from a cousin of Jobs, one in Jobs' own words: http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051204/GPG0101/512040591/1207/GPGnews http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/comphist/sj1.html#tools It is the info box that needs to be fixed, not the (correct) facts in the article. chumleyk

I changed the article to read San Francisco. Numerous on-line sources say Los Gatos CA, but I cited the Smithsonian oral history interview in which Jobs says SF. Forgot to remove "grew up in" from the infobox; perhaps someone else could do that.... -- Muffuletta 04:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biological father redux

Someone recently changed the description of Steve's biological father, Abdulfattah John Jandali, from "politcal science professor" to "graduate student who later became a political science professor." Perhaps whoever made that edit could provide a source, because this Guardian article (not necessarily Gospel) describes him as a political science professor who went to San Francisco," and whose "relationship with student Joanne Carole Schieble" produced Steve. -- Muffuletta 14:16, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

--I wasn't the one who made that change, but the edit was correct. Jandali was a graduate student at that time (1955) studying for his doctorate. To quote from Jobs' biological cousin in a Green Bay article, December 2005:

"The biological mother was 23-year-old Joanne Schieble, Giese's aunt, whose family owned a mink farm at what's now the site of the east-side Wal-Mart on the Bellevue-Green Bay border. Jobs' father was Abdulfattah Jandali, a native of Syria and also 23.

Schieble and Jandali were students at the University of Wisconsin in Madison at the time, and with society as it was in 1955, they had gone to California to secretly have the baby — unknown to the family, Giese said."

You can read the whole article at: http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051204/GPG0101/512040591/1207/GPGnews). -- Wallnut

Thanks. Good article. I added a citation. -- Muffuletta 15:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Steve Handjobs

... as opposed to Steve Jobs would have made him more "comedic," I thought (if you know what I mean ;) — Orz 08:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sckba-EX5MM i thought this could go well in the pop culture references bit

[edit] PARC?

I'm not sure right now how to re-write the section about the PARC influence, because clearly there was some, but according to Raskin himself the base concepts were actually there before PARC started their work. clacke 12:33, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

There is substantial difference of opinion on that whole subject between Apple folks (Raskin has something of a conflict of interest I would say), and PARC folks. John Markoff's What the Dormouse Said and Michael Hiltzik's Dealers of Lightning are the best secondary sources here. In any case you will find that most of the concepts date to Douglas Engelbart and the "Augment" project at SRI. Most people think that PARC got the ideas somewhat legitimately, but differ on how legitimate Jobs' exploitation of them was. -- Gnetwerker 18:33, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Copyright Vio

I think I recognize the sentence, "Baez and Jobs presumably remain friends, as evidenced by her mention of him in the acknowledgements of her 1987 memoir And A Voice To Sing With." from the biographyThe Second Coming of Steve Jobs - I don't have a copy of the book any longer, but I do remember it has an index. Can someone check whether this is the exact sentence used in the book? TDS (talk • contribs) 20:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


- I checked "The Second Coming" and it isn't in there. But it does sound familiar. The history shows that this one sentence was added on Nov.28, 2005 by anonymous 64.46.138.28.

It could be from another book or a magazine article. But it really doesn't add anything anyway. A mention on the acknowledgement page of a 20 year old book does not constitute evidence that a friendship has endured to the present day. (In fact it has and there are much more recent references to Baez being a family friend - including "The Second Coming"). If there is doubt about the provenance, maybe the sentence could be changed to read simply: "Baez included Jobs in the acknowledgements of her 1987 memoir" - or something similar. Wallnut

I edited the sentence to simply read "Baez included a mention of Jobs in the acknowledgements of her 1987 memoir And A Voice To Sing With" - this way the sentence is much less presumptious, and more fact then simple guess work. TDS (talk • contribs) 06:53, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Length

Aside from the warning the page is generating, the article is too long. We're having a hard time separating Steve Jobs from Apple Computer. Consider the paragraph on the Apple I for example: it talks more about Woz than Jobs.

How should we rectify this? JGorton 21:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chronologically incorrect?

I'm currently doing a spech on Steve Jobs and Apple for class and while I was reading the section about Apple's beginnings, it states they made the Apple I, and then the next May, they made the Apple III. Where on earth did the Apple II, the better of the 3, go? The only mentioning of the Apple II was at the bottom of the section saying the success of the Macintosh line eventually led Apple to abandon the Apple II. Why is this the only mentioning of one of the greatest computers to ever come out of Apple in their early stages?

Sk8.4.Life June 6, 2006 - 1:20 PM

[edit] Steve Jobs' homepage?

Does anyone have confirmation that's really his? Resume section looks like a rant.

I highly doubt that its his, but there's no wayt to prove otherwise. Darkyoshi 00:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Analysis of Steve's WWDC 2006 speech

I wanted to review the less than reliable sources used as citations for this section:

None of these sources have editorial review as is the case with real news articles. Columnist opinion, Blog Posts, Slashdot threads, are sources just not reliable ones.

WP:BLP States "Biographies of living persons should be sourced with particular care, for legal and moral reasons. All negative material about living persons must be sourced to a reliable source. Do not wait for another editor to request a source. If you find unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about a living person — whether in an article or on a talk page — remove it immediately. Do not leave it in the article and ask for a source. Do not move it to the talk page. This applies whether the material is in a biography or any other article."

Reliable sources in wikipedia are defined here: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Evaluating_sources of note is the following:

Evaluate the reliability of online sources just as you would print or other more traditional sources. Neither online nor print sources deserve an automatic assumption of reliability by virtue of the medium they are printed in. All reports must be evaluated according to the processes and people that created them.

Publications with teams of fact-checkers, reporters, editors, lawyers, and managers — like the New York Times or The Times of London — are likely to be reliable, and are regarded as reputable sources for the purposes of Wikipedia. At the other end of the reliability scale lie personal websites, blogs, bulletin boards, and Usenet posts, which are typically not acceptable as sources.

thanks, ---Paul E. Ester 17:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

This is all true. However, since the portion of the article in question refers to speculation by the online Apple community, these sources would seem to be appropriate—by their existence, they serve as evidence of such speculation. A more applicable objection to raise might be WP:NOR, but really, that would be pedantic in the extreme. There are genuine health concerns about Steve, and we shouldn't try to cover them up by misinterpreting WP:CS.  —Banzai! (talk) @ 17:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Relative to the information previously included in this article, very well established sources like Wired, CNET News.com.com, and Ars Technica can be considered reliable sources. Notice the title of the previous section was "health concerns". If the article were to be saying that Steve Jobs was indeed sick then there'd be a problem but this is not the case. The fact that these reports relative to health concerns about Steve Jobs are rather wide spread means the weight of such information is heavier as well. This discussion is likely going to soon be moot as full blown news reports about these concerns are probably going to turn up shortly. (→Netscott) 18:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
One more thing. Let’s not forget that WP:V, WP:RS, etc. are only means to a common goal: an accurate, useful, readable encyclopedia. I’m fond of the rule that says “if the rules prevent you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia's quality, ignore them”—if you ask me, the most sensible rule of all.  —Banzai! (talk) @ 19:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Relative to WP:BLP, WP:IAR will generally never apply. It appears that the San Francisco Chronicle is picking up Wired's report search "sick" here. (→Netscott) 19:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Good catch, finding that Chronicle article. I’ll revise the citations in a minute.  —Banzai! (talk) @ 19:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
In an earlier edit I specified the source for details about Jobs' appearance at the 2006 WWDC in the article (moreso than just relying upon ref. links). If this "health concerns" material is to remain in the article (as it is currently) then the actual individuals (and organizations) should be directly mentioned (ie: "according to Leander Kahney of Wired Steve Jobs... etc. etc."). (→Netscott) 19:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
That would work, but how about putting that kind of detail in the citation template, as I've just finished doing? Thing is, if we cram the body text full of "On such-and-such date, So-and-so of Such-and-such publication remarked..." I'm worried that the article will become more verbose and clumsy than necessary. In specific instances like the Ars Technica citation, where we're hearing stuff through another author, I agree that the body text does need to mention the source.  —Banzai! (talk) @ 20:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
From what I can tell, at this point there are only two primary reliable sources for the possibility of sickness angle and that's Wired and CNET. I found this MacDailyNews link that discusses it as well. At minimum the CNET and Wired authors need to be mentioned in the article. (→Netscott) 20:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd support that, Netscott.  —Banzai! (talk) @ 21:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I believe these are your edits being discussed... if you support my suggestion then by all means implement it. (→Netscott) 21:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I apologize, but I gotta scoot. Paul, go ahead and revert the section if you must (but don't break the page!)—I'll be back later for your take on the above discussion. No, I'm not running away! :-)  —Banzai! (talk) @ 21:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charity?

Although I'm not a Windows fan, I do respect Bill Gates for the generous donations he and his wife and given to charity. Just wondering if there are any reports of Steve Jobs doing the same? He's definetely one of the richest people in America right now. Mentaka 21:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proofreading needed

Hello everyone. I'm new to this, so please excuse my lack of general knowledge about how things are done around here. But here are some things about this article that should be changed: Can someone please proofread the first paragraph? The word 'vernacular' does not really have the sense that it is used for and should be removed in favor of a more apt word. There are semicolons when there should be periods. The word 'aesthetics' is used incorrectly as well - or at least it is not used in a very meaningful way. "Aesthetics" can't really comprise more than 'outward appearances alone' - that's exactly what aesthetics is concerned with. The sentence should maybe be rewritten: "understanding aesthetics to be a crucial factor in product appeal ' or something to that effect - I suppose that's what you were trying to get at. - jclyons

[edit] I USD?

am i reading this right or is this a typo,his salary is one USD?


That is correct, US$1 a year. However, that's just the salary and does not include stock options, bonuses, etc.--Marty Goldberg 22:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Concern: Unsourced Statements

A GA reviewer will have trouble passing this article because of the presence of unsourced statements. Every {{fact}} tag needs to be replaced with an inline citation from a reliable source. Thank you. -Fsotrain09 22:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I only came across one statement with a {{fact}}, which I have now corrected and then referenced. Were there more? --Marty Goldberg 22:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Nope. Thanks for addressing that. -Fsotrain09 22:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA on hold

This article will be put on hold (for 7 days) until these minor adjustments can be made :

1. Well written? Pass
2. Factually accurate? Pass
3. Broad in coverage? Pass
4. Neutral point of view? Pass
5. Article stability? Pass
6. Images? Fail


Additional comments :

  • Image:Apple first logo.jpg, Image:NextLogo.png,Image:Steve Jobs with iMac.jpg, Image:Pixar.jpg need to give their fair use rationale.
  • In the lead section, Jobs’s history in business (rich in character and intrigue) has contributed greatly to the mythos of the quirky, individualistic Silicon Valley entrepreneur, emphasizing the importance of design and understanding that aesthetics is a crucial factor in product appeal. His work driving forward the development of products that are both functional and elegant has earned him a devoted cult following. idealizes Jobs.
  • The word CEO should be wikilinked at least once in the main text.
  • Both Even though he was the founder and the inspiration behind the original company, Steve Jobs was gradually pushed out of Apple Computer Co. for his aggressive and underhanded tactics. and While Jobs was a persuasive and charismatic evangelist for Apple, some of his employees from that time had described him as an erratic and tempestuous manager. should be inline cited.
  • Also Jobs ran NeXT with an obsession for aesthetic perfection, as evidenced such things as the NeXT Cube's magnesium case. should be inline cited.
  • Words like In recent years, should be avoided to remove timeframe in WP.
  • I seriously doubt the utility/encyclopedicness of such section as In popular culture but if it remains it wont bother the GA nomination.

This article is thoroughly well written but needs more citations at mentioned places I have requested (some more would be needed but book references are given to find the material). Fixing these minor adjustments will probably be easy so the editors should drop me a message once the work has been carried out. Lincher 02:12, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Recent addition of Jobs’s history in business (rich in character and intrigue) has contributed greatly to the mythos of the quirky, individualistic gives a feeling of pov to the article. Lincher 02:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Beginnings of Apple Computer - "pushed out for underhanded tactics"?

Is there any source / citation for the following: "Even though he was the founder and the inspiration behind the original company, Steve Jobs was gradually pushed out of Apple Computer Co. for his aggressive and underhanded tactics" at the end of the "Beginnings of Apple Computer" section? [maven] 13:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Atari Payment Discrepancy

If you read the article at http://www.woz.org/letters/general/91.html, Steve Wozniak at no point confirms that Atari paid Steve Jobs $5000. Wozniak mentions that the writer is correct on the Pong issue, but that's it. The fact that he says "maybe it didn't happen, and maybe the Atari people that said it and wrote it were wrong in their own memories" means that he is uncertain over whether or not Jobs was actually paid $5,000. I don't know how you could take a direct quote from Wozniak himself of the words "maybe it didn't happen" and then present it as a concrete fact. So even if you can present other verifiable sources to back this claim up (not news based on wiki articles, not op-ed pieces, not message board posts, but a major publication), how valid can it be if Steve Wozniak himself isn't willing to give complete validation of the claim (he doesn't even specify how he heard the rumor, just that he heard it). Wozniak says on his own site that its possible that never happened, case closed.


Wozniak was not an employee of Atari. He has no direct bearing, and is only going by what he was told. Alcorn was project manager and in charge of all expenses. Matter is documented and sources were provided already. --Marty Goldberg 17:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The incredible irony to your statement is that you used Wozniak's site as a reference to your claims he wasn't fully compensated by Jobs, and then turn around and say that Woz's statements have no bearing. You WORK for Atari, its transparent that you've decided to selectively use Wozniak's comments out of context, yet totally dismiss the fact that he wrote "maybe the Atari people that said it and wrote it were wrong in their own memories." Loyalty to the guys who pay you (Atari) shouldn't influence how you edit pages, especially considering you can't back up statements with links to sources supporting them. The cited references support my edits, not yours.
You can't prove that Wgungfu works for Altari. In all probability he doesn't. Please refrain from making personal attacks. Furthermore, please site an explicit source (Wozniak debunking the rumor, rather than failing to mention it). if you find one that is reliable, we can add it to the article. In the mean while, perhaps you should be worried about your credibility. (Just a friendly reminder.)--HereToHelp 00:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Apparently you didn't click on his profile, which states that he worked on technical manuals for Atari. I haven't made a single personal attack on him, I've pointed out all along that he's posting innacurate info which cannot be verified, and that his working for Atari points at a bias (and possibly some hidden agenda to discredit Jobs and/or not give credence to Wozniak's position on Atari being incorrect). Either the reference to the pay discrepancy are removed altogether, or it remains with the wording that it had. As of yet, no one has posted a single reference link to a source that actually verifies there was every any pay discrepancy. All that has been posted is a link to Wozniak's site in which he states that he doesn't know if such a discrepancy ever existed. How is this an edit war when no one can post references supporting the anti-Jobs statements, any wikipedia editor with a working knowledge of the TOS will recognize that the statements are not verifiable with the references presented. I will request a block of any users who continue to edit this page in bad faith.
You can't block someone for editing in bad faith, at least not on the first infraction. But you're right; I did not see that he does indeed work for Atari. Since this is an unverifiable point, I say let's remove it.--HereToHelp 17:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
The reference should be removed entirely, then. The undisputable facts surrounding the addition of the pay references: 1. Not one verifiable online source has been cited which indicates concretely that the pay was $5000. 2. The only source cited is Wozniak's site in which he states in black and white that its possible there never was a $5000 payment, and that Atari was possibly wrong in their recollection of the amount. 3. The reference added only presents criticism of Steve Jobs ironically without referencing the doubts held by Wozniak in the only source cited. 4. The Jobs criticism was added by a paid employee of Atari who continually ignored Wozniak comments that Atari was possibly wrong. In closing, the fact that Wgungfu may have an ulterior motive for posting comments portraying Jobs in a negative light isn't as significant as the four above mentioned concrete facts. It seems the only people intent on restoring the comments to an unverified version are those who have something against Steve Jobs (otherwise why support uncited statements).
Now I wouldn't accuse him of deliberately inserting his POV, but it certainly is a valid point. Feel free to remove it, then.--HereToHelp 00:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Someone besides me has to remove it, because the people critical of Steve Jobs are just going to revert it and hide behind their weak claims that I'm starting an "edit war" if I do it personally.
Well, it is semied, so I'll do it. But since we talked about it here, it should be fine.--HereToHelp 11:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)


Just to clear some things up 1) I do contract work for Atari and other companies, one of which was the manual for the Atari Flashback 2 for Atari. I am not an employee of Atari, and all work for Atari was done through Legacy Engineering. Likewise, the Atari now is not the Atari back then, completely seperate company. Read the entry on it. It shows little attempt at logic and research on his part, and more of an emotional reach to try and back up his claims by pointing at others when so far he has not been able to provide an actual counter reference. 2) He is twisting my statement about Woz and his bearing. It was specifically in reference to this guy claiming Woz said "Maybe it didn't happen." More than one person directly involved with the management end of the project (the people that write the paychecks) have stated this. That's where I was responding to on Woz's supposed opinion on that specific claim having no bearing. But apparently this poster is not aware of Woz's "change of heart", which is provided below. 3)Likewise, I am a historian in the video game industry as well (GameSpy/IGN as my profile also clearly states), and get paid to be accurate in my research and references. 4) The person making these claims is an unregistered user who has provided no evidence to the contrary, nor his own background info and what qualifies him to make this continued claim. His "contribution list" (he has used the anonymous IP's of 65.0.116.110 and 70.149.167.27 also shows no contributions what so ever to Wikipedia for Apple, computer, or video game material during the short time he's been here. It would lead one to believe the edit is based on personal whim rather than any familiarity with the subject. Likewise, it makes it even more ironic claiming my information "vandalism" when he sudden appearance and continued edit of it is the very definition of it. 5) The information *IS* accurate and not a "point of view". This anonymous poster is missinformed or has a personal agenda (Steve Jobs fan?) that he's claiming others have. Stating things like "people critical of Steve Jobs are just going to revert it and hide behind their weak claims" clearly show he is not neutral and has an agenda to "protect" Steve Jobs from any sort of information that may seem "critical" has he puts forth. Wikipedia is about neutrality. I had provided a source, he seems to want to keep missinterpreting. Here are several more sources including the original:
http://www.woz.org/letters/general/91.html The question abnout $5000 is asked specfically (among others in the same paragraph, and he responds with "Your observations are right on the money".
Likewise Wozniak's own book, iWoz, clearly states on pg 147 - 148: "Later I found out he got paid more for it - like a few thousand dollars - than he said at the time, but we were kids, you know. He got paid one amount, and told me he got paid another. He wasn't honest with me, and I was hurt. But I didn't make a big deal about it or anything." He then goes on to talk about ethics.
Ultimate History of Video Games, pgs 71-73 which also includes direct quotes from Alan Alcorn on the issue. Alan was the project manager who oversaw the Breakout project, and put another engineer on it when they couldn't use the Breakout proto that Wozniak designed. That is also covered on the same pages.
There's also: http://www.thedoteaters.com/p2_stage1.php
There's also this web site: http://www.arcade-history.com/index.php?page=detail&id=3397
I will be putting back in the information. If it is removed again, I will be taking this to a higher authority.--Marty Goldberg 22:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

(Resetting the indentation) If he's got sources, and they look fine to me, there's nothing you (the anon) can do to stop him unless you come of with equally "accurate" sources supporting your view. Wongfu, go ahead and add it back in. Though it was a complicated issue at first, superior sources prevail. Always.--HereToHelp 23:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for resetting the indentation, they can get way out of hand. ;) Just added back in the info with footnoted references. Same material has also been put back in the Breakout entry. If the poster in question can find actual resources that explicitly state these resources and source people are incorrect, I'd be happy to discuss it further. --Marty Goldberg 23:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA failed

The article mainly fails the GA criterion of stability for it is changing at a crazy pace whether it is vandalism or additions. Thus GA cannot be awarded. Lincher 12:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish family

I could not find a source anywhere that says steve jobs was born into a jewish family. I'm removing it until someone finds something that confirms it. Justinmeister 21:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay. It certainly doesn't belong in that first sentence.--HereToHelp 02:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Jobs's biological mother and sister are Jewish. I think the confusion comes in that within the Jewish religion and identity, you're considered what your mother is. --Marty Goldberg 15:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Left or right hand

Does anyone know if Jobs is left or right handed? --ipodracer 07:19, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Does anyone care? Cokehabit 13:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm interested because I think it may have influenced Apple's UIs in several subtle ways --ipodracer 02:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
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