Talk:Stepanakert

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User:Tabib has listed Stepanakert → Khankendi under Wikipedia:Requested moves, and has linked to this talk page for discussion of this proposed move.

There are two separate articles, both referring to the same city by different names. They should be merged, with redirects pointing to a single name.

Background: this city is in Nagorno Karabakh, which is officially part of Azerbaijan, but has been under Armenian control since a war shortly after the breakup of the former Soviet Union nearly 15 years ago. Today, Armenians and Azerbaijanis prefer to call the city by different names.

Until very recently, both articles were "substubs", but Khankendi has recently been expanded into an article.

  • Question: are there also any naming issues with other cities and towns in Nagorno Karabakh? For instance Shusha, or others? -- Curps 18:09, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There is currently a redirect at Xankandi, pointing to Khankendi. With diacritics, it seems the spelling is Xankändi.

The merged article should be entitled "Stepanakert" or "Khankendi" or "Xankandi" or other. Express opinions below:

Contents

[edit] Stepanakert

  1. Curps 18:04, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC).
    • I don't really wish to take sides in this Armenian-Azerbaijaini conflict, but the people who actually control the city call it "Stepanakert". Just like we have articles entitled Taipei instead of "Taibei", and Senkaku Islands instead of Diaoyu Islands, we should probably use the name used by the entity that is actually physically exercising control over the territory, with redirects from the name used by the opposite side. -- Curps 18:04, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  2. Davenbelle 18:44, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
    • I agree with Curps; "Stepanakert" is what the folks who live there call their city. Davenbelle 18:44, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
  3. Carnildo 20:06, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • Since the city has been under the control of Armenia for a goodly long time, and there's no evidence that control will change in the near future, we should use "Stepanakert". Of course, if there's a long-term change of control, then by all means we should change the name of the article, and all common names should be mentioned in the article. --Carnildo 20:06, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  4. The government of NKR call it Stepanakert. So do the BBC: [1] Dmn / Դմն 20:34, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • Dmn, leaving "government of NKR" aside, just a quick note that official BBC policy is to refer to both names, calling it Khenkendi/Stepanakert Stepanakert/Khenkendi. See, N-K profile page [2]--Tabib 08:48, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
  5. It is more known under this name and the name is unlikely to change in the future. Second name should be included as alternative, plus redirect. Section on name disputes/changes should exist. Pavel Vozenilek 22:19, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  6. It was Stepanakert during the time it was in Soviet Azerbaijan, and has always remained so to the split-away government and people. The act of changing the name to one the residents would obviously never embrace seems silly. I (obviously) vote for Stepanakert. --RaffiKojian 17:37, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
    • One important clarification, Raffi. When saying "residents" in your comments above, you are one-sidedly referring *only* to Armenian residents, omitting Azeri population of Karabakh (appr. 40,000) and of then Stepanakert (appr. 10,000), expelled during 1991-1994.--Tabib 06:25, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
      • Fair enough... make that "today's residents, and the majority of residents", since I won't presume to speak for the Azeri residents. --RaffiKojian 09:08, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
  7. I also vote for Stepanakert. It's what the majority of the NKR residents (yes, the *Armenian* ones), refer to it as. Tommmmmmy 01:07, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  8. The only way the people living there will be changing what they call it will be if there is another war and it falls to the Azeris. Until then it makes sense to refer to this city by the name of Stepanakert in Wikipedia. Caerwine 13:23, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
  9. The city is internationally known as Stepanakert Valentinian 21:52, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
  10. From some points mentioned above, my vote goes to 'Stepanakert'. *drew 16:18, 20 August 2005 (UTC)


  • It's been 6 weeks; time to merge, I think... — Davenbelle 17:59, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
  • As I said, I will accept any solution that the majority supports, be it Stepanakert or Khankendi or Stepenakert/Khankendi (or vice versa). However, if I am not mistaken, according to Wikipedia rules, the poll should be voted by a minimum of 15 users, and 70% of support is required for any position to be declared acceptable. Is there a way to attract the attention of other editors (hopefully not all of them Armenians and/or Azeris, see what I'm saying... ;-), so that they would read through the talkpage and then vote for themselves? --Tabib 06:25, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Khankendi

  1. --Tabib 08:22, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC) I vote for Khankendi as elaborated in my message below.
  2. --Baku87 20:01, June 26, 2006 (UTC) I support the name Khankendi
    • The above vote was added a full years after the decision was made; the proper thing to do would be to start a new vote. --Golbez 21:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Xankandi/Xankändi

(specify a preference among the above, if any)

  1. Xankändi. At least from the references provided by Tabib, the most commonly name used in diplomatic fora and by reference sources (the BlankVerse Anti-Google Test) is Xankändi. Even though that transliteration does not result in the most accurate pronunciation by English speakers, it still seems to be the most common one BlankVerse ∅ 12:29, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • The name has been Stepanakert for a looooong time, and never changed for the locals. Why change it now? I vote for Stepanakert. --RaffiKojian 17:37, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

The page Xankəndi contain references to "Armenian terrorists" etc which is not in a neutral and encyclopadiac tone which wikipedia aspires for. Please remove those references. Manik Raina 11:01, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Other

[edit] Comment

Putting political issues of what the official name aside, the official wikipedia policy, wikipedia uses the most frequently used english name, determined via a google search.

[edit] Khankendi & Stepanakert

I thank you all for your interest in the issue. I do not intend to go to protracted discussions and I will accept the viewpoint of the majority coming out from the poll. However, preliminary elaboration is necessary before making final decision on how to vote in the poll.

I believe the category should be named Khankendi, since this is the most accurate English version of the current name of the town (Xankandi).

Background info: As some of you already know, Stepanakert was the name of the town in Soviet times. The town grew on site of a village named Khankendi. In 1923, with creation of Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Region, this small village was renamed Stepanakert, after Stepan Shaumian, an Armenian Bolshevik who was one of the leaders of the Baku Commune (1918). Soon it became the regional capital of Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Region and the biggest town within that autonomy. After Azerbaijan regained its independence in 1991, the Azerbaijan government renamed the town Khankendi (written as Xankəndi in Azeri).

Spelling variations: Khankendi/Xankandi/Xankändi: As you will see below, most of the maps (and I’m not talking about Azeri maps) refer to the town as “Xankändi”, which is the closest form to the Azeri spelling of the town “Xankəndi”. However, in my view, the correct English version is Khankendi. This is the variant which, I believe, fits the English pronunciation and grammar the best. Xankandi is somewhat confusing, especially for English reader, because it may be read as “Ksan-kandi" or even, “Zan-kandi”.

Please see, 1. UNDP Azerbaijan map (2002) (pdf format) -[3] (The town is clearly indicated as Khankendi)

2. Maps of Azerbaijan from University of Texas (2004): (political) (shown as Xankändi) (topographic) (shown as Xankändi)

For interesting comparison with the ones above, see, Soviet period map from the same source: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/azerbaijan.gif (shown as Stepanakert)

3. Merriam-Webster map of Azerbaijan [4] (Xankandi)

I also have at hand World Atlas from Rand McNally (1993) which shows the town as “Xankändi (Stepanakert)”

CIA World Factbook also refers to the town as Xankändi (Khankendi) and not Stepanakert. [5] (see both map and content)

Also see, Columbia Encyclopedia Online entry for Xankändi [6] and Stepanakert. [7] (the latter redirects to “Xankändi” entry)

In short, most of the contemporary maps refer to the town not by its Soviet-period name (Stepanakert), but by the contemporary official name (Khankendi or Xankandi)

Two arguments were used in favor of naming Stepanakert: 1. The town should be named the way the occupying power calls it 2. Google search shows more results for Stepanakert than for Khankendi or Xankendi etc.

I strongly disagree with the first argument. Today Armenian forces occupy roughly quarter of the territory of Azerbaijan. The separatist authorities renamed the Azeri settlements, most of which prior to their occupation had even no Armenian population. In this regard, please see the Armenian web-site Artsakhworld.com.

If to follow the logic that we should rename the towns the way the occupying power calls it, without consideration of legitimacy, then we should change the entries for occupied Azeri towns Kalbajar to “Karvachar”, Gubatly to “Kashunik”, Shusha to “Shushi”, Lachin to “Kashatagh” etc etc., which is a complete nonsense, as these settlements never had such names and until recently even Armenians themselves did not refer to these settlement this way.

Btw, the Armenian site I mentioned above goes as far as calling the Azeri towns of Barda and Agdjabedi, which are not in Nagorno-Karabakh and not even in Armenian control by its “Armenian names” (Barda is shown as “Partav” and Agdjabedi shown as “Baghimej”)...

In short my position regarding the first argument is that it cannot be accepted as a valid argument, because it alters geographical accuracy to politics.

As to the second argument, I accept its validity, however do not agree with it. It’s true that Google gives more results for ‘Stepanakert’ than for ‘Khankendi’, or even ‘Xankandi’. However, in this particular case, I do not think Google can be the appropriate measure for defining the “most widely used term” as stipulated by Wikipedia rules. We should bear in mind that whereas “Armenian” name for the town has only one English variant, the “Azeri” name has at least 3 most widely used English variants (Xankandi/Xankändi/Khankendi). Moreover, Google search is good for determining the most widely used naming in cases when a particular issue is rather well studied and there is a lot of information available over the Internet. This is not the case with Khankendi (Stepanakert), as there is not even a single specialized web-site about this town, whether Armenian or Azeri. Therefore, I believe that considering the understudied nature of the topic over the Internet, Google search cannot be an accurate indicator of the “most widely used term”. Therefore, my suggestion is to hold on accuracy in naming issue and not Google results.

I hope this info was helpful to you and you will consider it when voting for poll. But, certainly, as I said, I will accept any decision supported by the majority, whether ‘Stepanakert’, or ‘Khankendi’ or even ‘Khankendi (Stepanakert)’ or ‘Stepanakert (Khankendi)’ --Tabib 08:22, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

The problem with titling a geographic article based on "who should control the area" rather than "who does control the area" is that it leads to endless arguments over who has the better claim. Using "who does control the area" makes people unhappy, but at least it's easy to determine.
As a case in point: the city of Jerusalem. Who "should" control and name it? The current Israeli nation? The Palestinians? The British? -- they conquered it in 1917. Or should it be Turkey, the successor to the Ottoman Empire, who controlled it prior to that? Egypt, who controlled it in the 13th century? Germany? Fredrick II held it during the Crusades. The Vatican, as spiritual successor to the Crusaders? Italy, as successors to Rome? Any surviving descendants of the Jebusites, who the Israelites displaced in antiquity?
Far too much of the globe is claimed by multiple groups for "what it should be called" to work as a naming policy. --Carnildo 19:26, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Carnildo, probably you misunderstood my point, because the issue here is not naming the page title based on "who should control the area" (position you incorrectly ascribe to me) vs. "who does control the area" (position you ascribe to yourself). I did not make my case in favor of naming the page ‘Khankendi’ based on “who should control the area”. My point was that we should stick to contemporary naming as referred by authoritative maps and sources (adapted to English grammar and pronunciation, i.e. Khankendi instead of Xankändi).
On the other hand, I rejected the second argument (naming based on “who controls the area”) namely because it may alter geographical accuracy to politics. For example, Jerusalem, you mentioned, is called so not because Israelis hold control over the city, but simply because this is its name referred to it by maps and authoritative sources. If tomorrow someone occupies this town and changes its name to “Whatever-town”, we certainly would not rename the Wikipedia entries of Jerusalem. That is why I oppose the “who should control the area” approach, because, as I elaborated in my message above, it may lead to complete nonsense in naming issues, especially if this approach is applied to other towns and regions of Azerbaijan presently controlled by Armenian forces.--Tabib 07:02, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)
Actually, it is labelled Jerusalem because that is the English name for it, like Venice is the English name for Venetzia, and Germany the name for Deutchland (sp?). Stepanakert (as it has been known since 1923) has never had an English name. Again, I sa it's been known as Stepanakert since 1923, and the current people and rulers use that as well. If you want contemporary naming, lets use what the contemporary residents call it. I'm sure most of them have never heard of Khankendi... --RaffiKojian 17:37, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I would also like to say that your claim that "Today Armenian forces occupy roughly quarter of the territory of Azerbaijan." is completely off base. I don't know if you are knowingly spreading this lie, but you will have no excuse if you ever repeat that again. Armenians hold under 15% of what is recognized as Azerbaijan if you INCLUDE Karabakh. If you don't, under 10%. Either way you're way off base. (Source for legit numbers) --RaffiKojian 17:37, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Raffi, I would very much wish that you dont turn this talkpage to yet another "Armenian-Azeri" dispute forum and avoid irrelevant comments as to the "how much territory exactly did the Armenians occupy from Azerbaijan". This has nothing to do with naming issues and you can address this question in Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh. My comments were solely about Khankendi/Stepenakert and the background info I gave was also about the city in order to inform other editors about the naming issues (from my perspective) and to help them in arriving at their conclusions by taking into consideration both points of view.--Tabib 06:25, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
Tabib - I agree it has nothing to do with naming issues, but you brought it up, not me. You were "informing" them of a massive fallacy, so I simply pointed out the correct numbers and a source, and hope that you were only using that figure mistakenly. --RaffiKojian 09:08, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Raffi, I bring one more clarification on this off-point and irrelevant comments and hope we'll finish on that. I must admit that I had in mind "20%" when writing "quarter", which actually means 25%. This was a technical mistake that anyone even native English-speakers coudl make. "20 %" - is the number that both Azerbaijan and in many instances international media uses most often when referring to the percentage of occupied Azeri territory. However, if to be more exact, this is not 20% and even not "under 15%" that you Raffi argue, but 16% (which if you round-up makes 20%). I think it is counterproductive for you to hold on to this technical issue which is absolutely irrelevant to this talkpage.
Just to finish this discussion once and for all, here's the proof: Please see, UNDP Azerbaijan map (2002), which shows the occupied Azerbaijani territory showing the exact number - 14.176 sq km. Considering that Azerbaijan's overall territory is 86.600 sq km, this makes 16.36% of the territory of the Republic of Azerbaijan.
Raffi, I call you not to play with such heated words as "massive fallacy". I want to remind you and all that I provided *honest* and *neutral* background info on Stepanakert/Khankendi and then substantiated my personal arguments in favor of naming the entry 'Khankendi'. My post was not about "occupied Azeri territories" per ce, and there is no need for holding on one technical mistake of mine, thus questioning the rest of the arguments I have brought.--Tabib 10:11, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 20% Myth

Unfortunately Tabib - you're long explanatory message meant to give this subject a rest, doesn't seem like you want to give it a rest at all. Come on, you first mean to use the mistaken 20% (let's say by accident), then accidentally say a quarter (25%) rather than a fifth (20%). Fine. But THEN when you want me to put it to rest, you write three times more than me, including saying things like 16% can be rounded up to 20%!?!? Sure, and that can be rounded to 30% and that to 50% and that to the nearest 100%. In fantasyland. 25% vs. 15% is a huge exaggeration (yes, a massive fallacy), and 20%, is still a large lie. The 20% figure is 33% higher than reality IF Karabakh is included in the calculation, and 100% higher if it is not. Now my biggest problem with this 20% myth, is that it is not just the media that perpetuates it, it is the Azerbaijani government, which knows damn well how much of it's land it is in control of. If you want to argue that it is 16.x percent versus 14.x%, feel free (you can't ever win the arguement though since nobody can know to that exactness just where the lines are). But stop spreading this 20% nonsense, or else hand over an additional 5% of Azerbaijan to the Armenian forces so that you won't be a liar :-) --Raffi May 11, 2005

Frankly, Raffi, I expected a more deferential attitude and more professional discussion from you. First, you brought about this irrelevant comment about percentage of occupied territories, accussed me in "massive fallacy", thus prompting me to get into details by elaborating on this irrelevant issue of "whether it is 25%, 20% 15% or 16%" and now you accuse me in not "giving [this discussion] a rest at all" (?!). I think I have sufficiently addressed this issue in my posting above. I consider discussion on this irrelevant issue over. --Tabib 09:30, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to dissappoint, but I would have said I expected the same of you, and certainly didn't get it... I considered the discussion over every time I posted, but it seems you really want the last word :-) --RaffiKojian 01:53, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Xankendi

Due the many different names of this city, I have looked up for the official name which is registed in the US state departement. The official name of this city is Xankendi, somebody edit this in the article aswell, thanks!

The US State department does not control what cities are named in Azerbaijan. Since it is occupied (Please take this as neutrally as possible, everyone) by Armenians, and Azeris have little official presence there, it seems most NPOV to use the name used by the local population. (Especially since it is the capital of a breakaway republic, it would be kind of an insult to the local population to call it by the name the country they're breaking away from considers official) --Golbez 14:42, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map Caption & Boundaries

This section is to discuss the inclusion and content of the text "(Boundaries shown are as recognized by Azerbaijan.)" in the caption for the map.

When I added the caption (which had been sitting there peacably for quite a while until this week) the intent was simply to indicate that the boundaries there are not those used by the de facto government.

However, since an argument has arisen, let me point out that it is likely wrong to consider the map as showing de jure boundaries as they make no indication of Nagorno-Karabakh. Unless the Soviet Union had a far different meaning of "autononomous" than would normally be the case, I fail to see how Azerbaijan can de jure eliminate the existance of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast without the consent of the Oblast's government, so calling the internal boundaries of Azerbaijan as shown under the map as the de jure boundaries is a stretch.

The caption text as it is makes no mention of de jure or legal or international leaving the article text to deal with the issue, since it has the space that a map caption does not. Would the following alternative suffice: "(Boundaries shown are not recognized by Nagorno-Karabakh.)"? Caerwine Caerwhine 15:43, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I'll be redoing all my maps to handle the new addition of Kangarli in the next few days, so when I do that, I'll whip up a map for the N-K areas (like this) showing the N-K boundaries. That should make everyone happy. Personally, my view is to say they are the boundaries as claimed by Azerbaijan. At least the Cyprus issue is simple, as they didn't redraw any lines or rename any districts when they split. Fortunately, the rayon boundaries do mostly correspond to the borders of N-K, so we don't have to make any statements about the internal boundaries, just the "external" ones, between N-K and Azerbaijan) --Golbez 16:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Just to let y'all know, I've made a new map, it's really late tonight though so I have to wait til tomorrow to do my post-processing on it. Oh hell, why not, I'll do that one right now, and save the other 77 for tomorrow... And I'm going to make maps for N-K itself, which will have the proper borders and be zoomed in and such. Everyone will be happy. :) Uploading the map now, check out the article for it. --Golbez 08:03, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Population numbers

The population numbers vary significantly between different language versions of this article. This English version states 40,000, and so does the russian, dating the number to 2005. The Swedish article claims that population has dropped due to the war to 30,000. The German article claims 53,600 (Jan 1, 2004), and the Slovenian article 56,600 on the same date. I have an external source ([8]) claiming 52,900 on Jan 1, 2002. Does anyone have a reliable source on the correct number? (I have posted this issue on the Swedish and German wikis too.) /Dcastor 02:57, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vararakn

At some sources, for example Russian Wikipedia, i find that the before the place was called Xankəndi it had an even older Amenian name Vararakn. Is that true? --Amir E. Aharoni 13:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It was indeed called Khankendi before Bolsheviks renamed it after the Armenian communist Stepan Shaumian. The older name is mentioned in all sources, even Great Soviet Encyclopedia. As for the alleged old Armenian name, it's a recent invention and I have not seen it documented in any reliable source. Grandmaster 18:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Grandmaster - no offence please, but you may have Azerbaijani POV. Any other views, or better yet - sources? Sources that support Vararakn? Sources that refute Vararakn? Thanks. --Amir E. Aharoni 08:41, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

yES the CITY was indeed called VARARAKN since it was a village on the river Vararakn. And it was called Stepanakert even when Nagorno Karabakh was a part of Azerbaijan. This means the official version of the name of the city is Stepanakert. Khankendi was a village and not a town before 1923 .

[edit] Terms

Whats up with the term Azerification? After the USSR Stalingrad was changed into Volgagrad and Leningrad was changed back into St. Petersburg, was this part of Russian-fiction to? The original city name was Khankendi and it was restored no Azerification or anything like that, it happened everywere. Baku87 14:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

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