Talk:Static universe

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Contents 1 NPOV concerns 2 The deleted information 2.1 Basic description 2.2 Astrophysics of the static universe 3 Many static universe proponents are anti-Einstein

[edit] NPOV concerns

I have come to look at this article in response to NPOV concerns that have been brought to my attention, presumably with the desire for comment. I have looked through the history and see that the article has been drastically changed since Jan 16, with a lot of information being taken out and different material being inserted. While I do not see the inserted material as inappropriate in its content, it does seem very POV in the way it is presented...especially when regarded in combination with what was taken out. That being said, I was very disappointed to see that no discussion had taken place on the talk page in regard to these major edits, and I was also unable to find any discussion regarding the edits on the user talk pages of the editors involved. So, pending proper discussion as per wikipedia policies and guidelines, I am reinserting the removed material. I am also going to, in the process, attempt to make both the removed material and the new material work together in a way that adheres to NPOV policy.

1. Reinserted the paragraph about Eric Lerner. he has an aticle on Wikipedia, so he is obviously notable enough to mention, and there is a link provided to the petition which does indeed contain over 500 signers, more than 200 of them from the standard scientific community. Idid try to clean the paragraph up a bit, but I think it does need more work.
2. I have reinserted relevant info from the removed intro, worked in in with the newer intro, and introduced it in a similar way to how other theories are introduced in their respective articles...This should maybe be standardized in the interest of both NPOV and style, as well as to facilitate comprehension when a reader is jumping back and forth between related articles.
3. Removed the statement regarding Einstein's "greatest blunder"...this kind of comment must be cited. Als changed the wording regarding Hubble's research, as cosmology is almost completely theoretical, and should be represented as such...what I mean is that it isn't accurate to describe theories (even very likely and well supported theories) as discoveries. Discovery indicates something which is known with certainty. This comment on Hubble's law probbaly needs something to help it blend better and to describe why the redshift research is incompatible with Einstein's previous theories, but I will leave that to those who are more deeply involved in these topics.
4. Reswapped the astrophysical aspects heading and content with the "these guys shouldn't question the most popular theory" commentary...the latter is inappropriate in that it describes those who seek alternative theories as disobediant children, even though questioning is what science is supposed to be all about! However, there does need to be some clarification in the introduction to these astrophysical aspects.

I have changed some other areas, more in how they are worded than in the content of them, and these will be evident in the article history. My reasoning is that wiki articles are not intended to tell the reader what they should believe, but rather to represent all views and allow the reader to decide for themselves. We must remember that popular theories, even long-standing ones, have many times been replaced by new theories. It often seems that science gets as bad as religion in trying to push certain views and having a closed mind to alternatives...I see that as very unfortunate, as I used to hold science in much higher regard almost solely on the fact that it is supposed to be based on open-mindedness and questioning even those things that are likely to be true.

Please remember to discuss large changes on the talk page first, particularly if you hold the view that certain scientists are "bad" because they question those theories "accepted by scientific consensus". bcatt 23:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you had concerns and you brought them to the talkpage. However, your edits are misguided and I'll explain why:

1. Reinserted the paragraph about Eric Lerner. he has an aticle on Wikipedia, so he is obviously notable enough to mention, and there is a link provided to the petition which does indeed contain over 500 signers, more than 200 of them from the standard scientific community. Idid try to clean the paragraph up a bit, but I think it does need more work. -- Lerner is an advocate of plasma cosmology and is currently a Wikipedia member editting that page. He has already indicated over there that he does not consider his model to be a static universe, but instead an "eternal universe" that is continually evolving. As such, we are going to have to remove the material about him unless you can find a source that conforms to verifiability.
2. Removed the statement regarding Einstein's "greatest blunder"...this kind of comment must be cited. Als changed the wording regarding Hubble's research, as cosmology is almost completely theoretical, and should be represented as such...what I mean is that it isn't accurate to describe theories (even very likely and well supported theories) as discoveries. Discovery indicates something which is known with certainty. This comment on Hubble's law probbaly needs something to help it blend better and to describe why the redshift research is incompatible with Einstein's previous theories, but I will leave that to those who are more deeply involved in these topics. -- I get the impression that you aren't very familiar with the topic. While that's fine, drastically editting pages like this can be seen to be problematic. In particular, cosmology is not "almost completely theoretical" (in fact, there is an entire branch of observational cosmology) and the Big Bang remains the scientific theory that describes the current state of mainstream physical cosmology research. Fringe ideas do exist, but they need to be describe with an eye to undue weight concerns.
3. Reswapped the astrophysical aspects heading and content with the "these guys shouldn't question the most popular theory" commentary...the latter is inappropriate in that it describes those who seek alternative theories as disobediant children, even though questioning is what science is supposed to be all about!... -- this reads like a lecture from a supporter of some nonstandard cosmology about regarding pathological skepticism. A neutral encyclopedia does not describe fringe ideas as mainstream when they aren't. This is apparently the attempt that you are going for.

I suggest that you do some more research on these subject, perhaps with an eye toward the development of the Big Bang theory. Einstein's static universe is part of that particular narrative and there are no verifiable sources I have seen that claim that there are still people today who view the universe as static in quite the same way. Thanks for your input!

--ScienceApologist 15:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The deleted information

For reference, the following is the information that ScienceApologist deleted from the article, twice:

[edit] Basic description

The theory of a static universe is the rival theory to an expanding universe and all of it's subvarieties. The different types of expanding universe theories are big bang, continuous creation, and oscillatory universe. Big bang is the most popular theory.

In the time of Albert Einstein, the most well-known proponent of static universe was Fritz Zwicky, who proposed the 'tired light' theory as an alternative explanation of the red shift. In contrast, the proponents of the expanding universe theories interpret the red shift as being the result of the doppler effect, due to universal expansion, or due to an intergalactic 'dark energy' which causes the universe to expand.

In modern times, the greatest proponent of a static universe is Eric Lerner, who rallied over two hundred like-minded physicists to sign his petition against the big bang at http://www.cosmologystatement.org .

[edit] Astrophysics of the static universe

There are multiple astrophysical aspects in the static universe model. The main aspects are described as follows:

• Hydrogen is re-created by quasars (extremely massive black holes) via the re-combination of their matter with photons. This has been observed to occur, in which quasars have been seen to spew out massive jets of hydrogen gas, often enough to eject the quasar from the galaxy that it originated in.
• Photons that travel intergalactic distances pass through transparent gas clouds (in which they are absorbed and re-emitted by electrons), and pass by gravitating bodies, both of which cause their frequency to decrease with distance.
• A cosmic microwave background radiation is caused by microwave emissions from the transparent gases that absorb energy from the stellar photons.
• When photons interact with intergalactic gas, the time between absorption and re-emission is variable. That causes the photons to be somewhat spread out over time. That spreading is equal in all directions of astronomical observation, in contrast to the big bang, in which this spreading must be of different extremity from different directions, due to the universe having a definite center. That time-spreading that is equal in all directions has been observed to occur in distant supernovae.
• Interaction of the photons with the intergalactic gas and gravitating bodies causes distant objects to be blurred. This has been observed to occur.

[edit] Many static universe proponents are anti-Einstein

The article associates a static universe with Albert Einstein. There are some static universe proponents that like to associate themselves with Einstein so as to give themselves extrinsic authority. However, most static universe proponents consider Einstein to be the creator of the big bang belief, due to his clever strawman tactic in the general theory of relativity, in which Einstein made the obvious false assumption that a static universe is dependent upon a precise balance of forces (as opposed to a regulatory mechanism, which is described in the deleted astrophysics section). Therefore, the article should make no positive association between Einstein and the static universe model, though a negative (oppositional) association is not inappropriate. GoodCop

Do you have any sources which indicate this? --ScienceApologist 04:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)