Talk:State terrorism in Sri Lanka/Archive 4

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Contents 1 Removing the 1958 riots 2 Kumarapuram Incident 3 Nagerkovil school bombing 4 The term 'Massacre' 5 Adding references 6 Additions removed 7 Chemmani mass graves 8 Reverting of edits 9 Attack on NGO workers in Sri Lanka 10 Who have evidence of State Terrosism by Sri Lakan Security Forces 11 Name change 12 Black July 13 Jaffna Library 14 Speedy deletion request 15 Revamp?

[edit] Removing the 1958 riots

After doing the research to write the Sri Lankan riots of 1958 article, I have concluded that although the state did not to enough to stop the riots, neither did it instigate them, nor did it engage in retaliatory measures large enough to be considered state terrorism. I am therefore removing that section. The Ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka page still has a summary of those events, as it should. Tyronen 17:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kumarapuram Incident

I added an entry for this incident, there are more details here http://www.peacebrigades.org/lanka/slp9603.html, now it seems the GoSL did eventually undertake investigation and punished some soldiers, but it seems the commander who possibly ordered the massacre was also not punished, so it is a grey area if this is state terrorism or not.

Also it seems we have a lot of such cases which are not outright state terrorism but certainly human rites violations, so perhaps we need to either redefine this article or come up with a different article similar to 'notable attacks by the LTTE' which is not restricted to just state terrorism.--Realstarslayer 16:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed it from this list per your comment RaveenS 13:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nagerkovil school bombing

Please add any further sources or if any of the sources mentioned in the reference can be located would be helpful. Many of them are no longer available on line such as the British Refugee Council newsletters, they only go as far back as 1996 now, or the AP article.--Realstarslayer 20:42, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

British Refugee Council Page for the 'Sri Lanka monitor' news letter

[edit] The term 'Massacre'

hi RaveenS,

I'm not so sure we want to use the term 'massacre' for each and every incident, for one it comes off as a POV and secondly it waters down the meaning of true massacres. I think it would be better to use a term that describes the actuall attack.. such as church/school bombing, Trincomalee students 'shot and killed' or executed, etc. Likewise for the articles being created for each of the main incidents.--Realstarslayer 04:36, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

P.S. It was also one of the reasons I started the delete request for that 'LTTE Massacres' article too, which was successfuly deleted BTW.

See Sabra_and_Shatilla_Massacre, there are lot of articles on masscares in Wikipedia. Lebenese section is full of them. If we google these masscres as I have called them, you will get a wealth of information, so the terms are not original researcg but let us continue this discussion nayway. ThanksRaveenS 13:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Also there is a category called Category:Massacres_of_the_Lebanese_Civil_War, that was my idea, create a category for all these masscres both attributed to the LTTE and the SL government and a sub section on prison massacres when I am done Bindunuwara and kalutara.....RaveenS 13:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok we can leave it for now then if there is a precedent with other incidents. Regards --Realstarslayer 15:22, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Didn't notice you changed them already, I think that's fine the way it is now, more accurate.--Realstarslayer 15:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adding references

When adding references to this article, please keep in mind to add the same reference to the main article that it links too. Also follw the format established and list them under Source websites and link them up by ^[1] Thanks RaveenS

[edit] Additions removed

I notice that my additions about several events in the 1990s were removed without warning. This does not seem to me appropriate behavior unless the edits were inaccurate, which they were not. They had citations from a neutral source (Human Rights Watch) and were prominent enough to be discussed in HRW's annual reports (more than once, for some of them.) Please in future do not delete material wholesale without discussing first unless it is clearly inaccurate and/or irrelevant. Tyronen 22:28, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Please see discussion in your talk page regarding this. This is about time that an admin will be deciding whether to keep this article or delete. Already people have raised questions as to even the current list has items that can be legally defined as state terrorism. If an Admin deletes this article then there is no point in further discussion. In the to do list let is come up with a strict criteria before any incident can be added. Let' us discuss items before adding because if we are to add all masscres by the Sri lankan government this list will have over 100+ entries. Just like the massacres by the LTTE article it will eventually get deleted anyway. Just my points.RaveenS 00:59, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

If that's going to be your attitude, I have changed my position to support deletion of this page and said so on the afd. Tyronen 03:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Tyronen, not sure if you are misunderstanding his stand? Or maybe I am misunderstanding what you would like to with the page? I think all he wants is to make sure that what is added can actually be considered state terrorism, so that it doesn't become a farce like the current 'terrorist attacks of the ltte' page. So I am not sure why you would want this page deleted? Regards--Realstarslayer 04:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok I just looked through the history so now I understand what happened. RaveenS I think Tyronen's additions were legitimate and do fall under State terrorism, I think it would have been better not to revert but discuss and change them if needed, in fact it seems I have duplicated one of his additions as well, the Chemmani graves/Somaratne revelations.

Tyronen, though I can understand your frustration at how your changes were handled I don't think deleteing the article helps. What is the alternative then? If something better can come of it then fine, but right now this is the only article on terrorism/human rights violations carried out by the GoSL. If we are going to have a balanced and informative handling of the Sri Lankan conflict we need this article just as much as the Notable attacks by the LTTE one so that both sides of the story are told.

So all I can suggest is to have Tyronen's changes readded and we can discuss each one and tweak as necessary. Regards --Realstarslayer 04:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I did something bold and did not follow protocol because of the timing factor. Have you noticed why it is taking too long to resolve this AFD versus Syria because incidents in Sri Lanka are not notable enough for many admins and they are legitimately not sure of all these incidents. So my fear is unless we prune this (I even removed Kumarapuram because you said the culprits were found and put in jail) it will get deleted. Adding right now is the wrong thing to do, we should develop the criteria, use the vetting process and then add. Plus the users decision to burn the books because edit decisions shows that we really have to be careful in managing emotions on this list or it will be mess like the LTTE article. I have archived this article so even if it is deleted contents of this can be used to create an counter part to Notable attacks by the LTTE article. Thanks13:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

See archived of Tyronens additionsTyronen's additions. I have archived it so that we can discuss ho wif they are to be incorporated. RaveenS 14:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chemmani mass graves

I just entered a basic description, but I think this one probably deserves a main article of its own. Also I am not sure what year to put it under, the victims in the grave are thought to be 'disappeared' from 1996, but the graves were discovered in 1998.

--Realstarslayer 02:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

My point would be that it should have it's own entry anyway even if the merits of it in this list can be debated. RaveenS 13:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting of edits

I made some edits at 14:08, 8 August that consisted mostly of reorganization of the text and spelling and grammar fixes. These edits were reverted by an anonymous user. This is the kind of thing that might happen from an edit conflict, but it occurred fully 17 hours after my edit. What on earth is the point of reverting grammar fixes and reintroducing old errors?? I do not know for sure whether this was deliberate or accidental, but either way please be more respectful of others' contributions in future. Tyronen 14:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah that is strange, maybe they didn't pay attention to the actual changes and thought some mass deletes had been made. Oh well. --Realstarslayer 15:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Is anon 64.201.162.1 the same person as RaveenS? I notice that 64 is also the IP that deleted my edits without warning on August 3. Tyronen 15:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm I don't know any way of telling IP from user name? However I don't think RaveenS would do it? After all he did admit he was mistaken the last time when he removed your edits. Well at least it isn't as crazy as the LTTE article had become so we can deal with these minor issues.--Realstarslayer 16:49, 9 August 2006

(UTC)

[edit] Attack on NGO workers in Sri Lanka

It can be a seperate article on its own as we have a pattern of attacks now, starting from the attack on Oxfam during CBK's time to current massacre of a french NGO's workers then that article canbe linked to thsi oneRaveenS

The title of the article may be Attack on NGO workers in Sri LankaRaveenS

The article also should be linked to NGO article on a subsection dealing with attack on NGO workers in Sudan, Afghanistan and Sri Lanka .RaveenS 14:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who have evidence of State Terrosism by Sri Lakan Security Forces

In all messacure pointed out in the secton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_attacks_carried_out_by_LTTE on the last part there it says no clear evidene ,who wrirtes these articles , does USA has evidene that Binladen is the mastermind of the 9-11 attack. Come on people terrorist wont accept they are engaging in killings Againt lies

[edit] Name change

The name of this article is totally biased. None of these cases are proven or acepted by SL athorities. And in the first line of the article it says "ALLEGED" meaning that state terrorism in srilanka is only allegation. Wikipedia doesn't call LTTE, terrorists because it is opinion. In the sameway this article should be named "ALLEGED ATTACKS BY SRILANKAN GOVERNMENT". If no one changes the name I will do it my self. Goodluck coming up with a counter argument. ~suicidebomber~ 21:36 24 Nov 2006 (UTC)

Nothing in Wikipedia is dicated all is consensus, first make your case well, then let's see. 14:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Whaaaa? In english please. ~suicidebomber~ 21:36 24 Nov 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black July

The claims of 5 deaths and 4 in a point blank range could not be verified as the Associated Press article could not be found..I think here we should stick to the BBC article, which clearly says one death and 40 were injured.Also i added ^{[citation needed]} sign to some remarks,in the cases where neither sources were provided nor sources couldnt verified the claims thanks --Iwazaki 15:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

See link[1] It is a neutral source. Not Pro LTTE or Pro SL government. It talks about the 4 people killed by police. ThanksRaveenS

actually i made my point about the june 17th incident..Since BBC article looks fair enough i think we should leave it like that.

About the wsw, no i dont think its neutral,may be even worse than the pro-ltte sites..I have been following their articles for a quite a while, and i cant but think that they are too biased towards so-called tamil problems.Sorry, for me its nothing but a another propaganda machine run by PRO-eelamists,whether they support LTTE or not --Iwazaki 18:22, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Please cite credible sources that say that? Or it is simply a personal opinion about WSW. If you think no one was killed then find that credible and nuetral source and add as another point of view. Saying that according so and so no one was killed' then cite. ThanksRaveenS

Obviously you have not been following WSW..Okay,just read the aricle which you cited here,and see how starts..Endless criticism of monks and SL government.Though SL govenrment was never invloved in the 1983 riots, WSW accusses it for organizing it !! For them buddhists monks are in the same category of taleban !! They claimed for buddists monks tamils are second class citizens,where are the proofs? ??!! Why they even failed to quote any monks saying tamils are inferior ?? Answer is obvious,its the internet.and everyone having a free ride !!

please,try to find another source to verify their deaths, because WSW article doesnt carry any weight at all. --Iwazaki 19:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

also,when no one is dead, Newspapers usually dont put them.have you ever seen newspaper headlines like, "bomb exploded, no one is killed" ?? or "jaffna library attacked no one is killed" ?? Either those articles are rare or never get exposed.You are the positive claimant here,and its your duty not mine to give credible sources.

See Black July a well referenced article that shows how the government was involved in organizing it. But I will try to get other sources, these incidents happened before the internet age hence little bit diificult. Thanks RaveenS

And that is wrong..SL government did not take part in 1983 riotes at all.This dubious claim is never proven and having it as a claim degrades your article by default.So please dont repeat this hypothesis,its totally baseless.

--Iwazaki 00:48, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Iwazaki, please cite credible references for your statments or your hypothesis of lack of government involment in [[Black July][] is contrary to what even the government of Sri Lanka officially belives in its publications 20 years later as cited in Black July article. It is revisionism without references. Thanks 216.95.23.211

you are the positive claimant here,and its your duty to prove things by giving facts,Which so for you have failed to do.Here in this article, which is supposed to show state terrorism against tamils have given 1983 riots as an example,but there is not a single proof which proves its involvement.so the blame your self for hypothesis.Better to say, state ignore the problems or were late in taking actions.Article just echoed the common belief among tamil politicians,attacking people like Cyril Mathew.Also havent you noticed thatno where it says police shot 4 people to death ??.Finally,please sign in ,if you are really interested in having a good debate.Iam not a big fan of anonymous users doing edits in controversial articles.

--Iwazaki 09:38, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from personally attacking the contributer WP:Personal Attack. This is not acceptable in WP. Any one can contribute anonymous or otherwise. It is WP policy. Please stick to subject matter on hand. Thanks RaveenS

Please move talk about Black July to here and cite with sources as talk pages are not soap box's. Hope you undertand. ThanksRaveenS

no i dont think its necessary.Here in this article you have used 1983 incident to prove state terrorism,so let the talk continue here..This is a discussion page and thats what iam doing right now.Otherwise due to lack of evidence,i would have erased that part already..Still you havent answered by quetions regarding the WSW article, if that article doesnt qualified as a neutral work, i see no point having it here.

OK I will state here WSW is not a Pro-Tamil or Pro-Sri Lankan government site. Hence it it is neutral source (see discussion below). Black July is a well referenced article that says it was organized by the government. If you disagree without proper citations then it is your opinion and I have nothing more to say. Please take it to mediation if you prefer, WP policy that that's one way to resolve a conflict. ThanksRaveenS

i havent done any personal attack at all..so i dont get what you mean here.I am having a genuine discussion here..There are some flows in the sources and pointing them is not soap box type.WSW is pro tamil site, there is no doubt about it..Didnt you read what i wrote here ?? Didnt you see ,how they start there article by attacking monks and refering them as taleban type !!! I dont know why you keep having this as a source..As for the rest, esp involvement of Gamini dissanayake, i think this is totally baseless..And i will provide evidence you need,please be patient.--Iwazaki 11:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jaffna Library

OK They burned to the ground certain chosen targets - including the Jaffna Public Library, with its 95,000 volumes and priceless manuscripts, a Hindu temple, the office and machinery of the independent Tamil daily newspaper Eelanadu. Four people were killed outright. No mention of this appeared in the national newspapers, not even the burning of the Library, the symbol of the Tamils' cultural identity. The government delayed bringing in emergency rule until 2 June, by which time key targets had been destroyed.’’ - Nancy Murray, the State against the Tamils in Sri Lanka - Racism and the Authoritarian State - Race & Class , Summer 1984 now Nancy Murray is no Monk hating Eelamist :)) she is Nancy Murray, Director Bill of Rights Education Project in Massachusetts, American Civil Liberties Union(ACLU). Thanks RaveenS 21:13, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

where does it say, those people were killed by the police ?? you are talking about the state-terrorism, for that you have to prove the direct involvement of the government. Just by quoting things which does not explain SL govenments involvement is not going to prove you at all..Blaming government for its inaction is a one thing,and accussing them for terror is a totally different thing.

--Iwazaki 00:48, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

The journal article title itself is State against the Tamils in Sri Lanka - Racism and the Authoritarian State - Race & Class , Summer 1984. Now we have atleast 2 instances of references. One the internet article and other journal article. 216.95.23.211 03:24, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

So ??? WHERE IS THE USAGE OF TERRORISM ?? Are you saying racism and terrorism are synonymous ?? Any racist will automatically become a terrorist ??

for starters,here we are discussing "so-called state terrorism".So please get your path correct,before anything. thanks Iwazaki 09:54, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Infact the whole quote from Nancy Murray is With several high ranking Sinhalese security officers and two cabinet ministers, Cyril Mathew and Gamini Dissanayake (both self confessed Sinhala supremacists), present in the town (Jaffna), uniformed security men and plainclothes thugs carried out some well organised acts of destruction. They burned to the ground certain chosen targets - including the Jaffna Public Library, with its 95,000 volumes and priceless manuscripts, a Hindu temple, the office and machinery of the independent Tamil daily newspaper Eelanadu. Four people were killed outright. No mention of this appeared in the national newspapers, not even the burning of the Library, the symbol of the Tamils' cultural identity. The government delayed bringing in emergency rule until 2 June, by which time key targets had been destroyed.’’ - Nancy Murray, the State against the Tamils in Sri Lanka - Racism and the Authoritarian State - Race & Class , Summer 1984 Hope this helps. RaveenS 04:16, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Not quite. so the alleged involvement of poloce in the killing in not proved.The aricle only says 4 died outright, and dont even use the word police here.And gamini Dissanayake is certainly not a sinhala supremacist,another hypothesis !! could you please give me some proof, other than "she said so" or "he said so" ..And she degraded that article by using the baseless accusations,like supremacist,without giving any facts at all !!! So much for a neutral source !! Iwazaki 09:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Nancy Murray is an acredited American lawyer and an ACLU activists and has published number books on State violence. She is not a Tamil or Sinhalese. Regarding the burning of the library she wrote state security men instigated by two ministers burned the library and in the process killed 4 people. WSW says 4 people were pulled by the police and killed. Both the versions says 4 people were killed. Hence we have 2 references saying 4 people were killed. This is without going into the books listed as further reading. Which also state the same. I am amenable to change the sentence to say that four people were killed in the process and leave it to the readers to make up their mind. ThanksRaveenS

You have removed the "police" from it..Well i think thats the correct decision as these two articles contradict how those people died.So for time being lets have it like this..

--Iwazaki 11:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speedy deletion request

This article has been written from a neutral point of view as all possible points have been cited. It went through and AFD and the discussion was non consensus. There are other series of articles on State terrorism such as State terrorism by Syria and State terrorism by the United States of America. All articles went through AFD and survived. The speedy deletion by a newbie shows that he/she is a sockpuppet who wants this point of view hidden. RaveenS 03:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

You can not justify that Sri Lanka has to have a State terrorism article based the fact that other country's have there own. In fact the USA has funded and carried out numerous acts of violence and rightly so State terrorism by the US article should be available to the public. I have read some of the topics listed on State terrorism in Sri Lanka and would like to give some of my responses.

I would like to site the first sentence on the article:

"Activities that can be termed as state terrorism by Sri Lanka have generally been attacks on alleged supporters of the Janatha Vimukthi Peramuna or JVP a Marxist and nationalist political party which unsuccessfully tried twice (in 1971 and 1987-89) to overthrow the democratically elected government of Sri Lanka using a violent rebellion..."

This article goes astray even with the first sentence. In your own words these acts of violence were committed by an revolutionary Political party that did not even have democratic strength to over throw the government in 1971. In fact they have not been able to over throw or take control of the democratic process of Sri Lanka even once to date. Other country's do not list a rebellion as a state terrorist act. It is the opposite of the same. It is a terrorist act against the state, be it any ethnic group.

Also you seem to forget that there are two side of this struggle and that if we go deep into the figures and facts of the terrorism by the LTTE...we will be able to fill a separate Wiki.

You should rename this article as terrorism committed against people of Sri Lanka and give balanced facts and details.Vajira K 14 November 2006

Thanks for your input, first I think you are a sockpuppet so I will ask a Checkuser on you. Second I failed to see that the first sentence goes astray as you see. If it is a grammatical error let's work on it. All what the article (not me) says is that the first civilian victims were alleged members of JVP. Second please start an article or add to number of articles on terrorism by the LTTE such as Assassinations attributed to the LTTE, Notable attacks attributed to the LTTE. How about Civilian massacres by the LTTE ? You should and you can fill Wiki with those articles. Please go ahead and be creative. Until the check user is in I will refrain from further discussion. ThanksRaveenS 15:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revamp?

Well just going through the article I can see issues that might want to be addressed going into the future, these issues are probably causes for disagreements with other editors about the usefulness of the article and the providence of the editors etc etc.

Well it could just be me or does the article relate to terrorism very mild? I think it requires alot of background knowledge on the conflict and is thus very shallow. Maybe we should delve into causes for State Terrorism and why certain incidents constitute terrorism?--Sharz 11:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Be my guest, go ahead. ThanksRaveenS 23:29, 20 November 2006 (UTC)