Talk:Star of David

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[edit] Rabbi Isaac Luria

To the editor of this page,

You wrote: "However, the sign is nowhere to be found in classical kabbalistic texts themselves, such as the Zohar, the writings of rabbi Isaac Luria and the like". I read on G.S. Oegema's book (Realms of Judaism, The history of the Shield of David,the birth of a symbol, Peter Lang, germany, 1996, ISBN 3-631-30192-8) that "Isaac Luria provided the Shield of David with a further mystical meaning. In his book "Etz Hachayim" he teaches that the elements of the plate for the Seder evening have to be placed in the order of the hexagram: above the three sefirot "Crown. "wisdom" and "Insight", below the other seven".

Zeevveez 14:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I've added this quote to the article. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ну? 23:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

M. Costa wrote that M. Gudemann and other researchers in the 1920's claimed that Isaac Luria influenced the becoming of the Star of David a national Jewish emblem by his teaching that the elements of the plate for the Seder evening have to be placed in the order of the hexagram, but Gershom Scholem proved that Isaac Luria talked about parallel triangles one beneath the other and not about the hexagram. [Source: "Hatakh ha-zahav, hotam Shelomoh u-magen-David", Poalim, 1990, Hebrew, pp. 156]

Zeevveez 04:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Looks scholarly and relevant, so I added that one as well. ←Humus sapiens ну? 06:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Guidelines

To the editor of this page,

IMHO the Star of David is a Jewish symbol and there are many other sorts of hexagrams in other cultures that do not belong to the main page.

I suggest moving paragraphs that deal with the following subjects to the article about the Hexagram: Bronze Age hexagrams; Iron Age hexagrams; Arabs' and Muslims' hexagrams; Christian hexagrams ; Eastern Religions hexagrams ; Alchemy hexagrams ; Witchcraft, Occultism hexagrams ;Astrology hexagrams ; Estoiles ; Mullets (or molets) ;Chinese checkers ; Shatkona (Yantra), Mandala, Indian hexagrams ; Snowflakes ; Scientific ; Raelism ; Non Jewish heraldry and flags ; Theosophy ;Zion Christian Church ; Latter-day Saints (Mormons) ; Buddhism Hinduism and Jainism.

I have a blog about the Star of David (www.star-of-david.blogspot.com) and I hope to implement there what I offer you here...

Zeevveez 11:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. I've moved most of it into hexagram. BTW, no one owns WP articles, you are just as "editor of this page" as anyone else. Please add new posts to the bottom. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ну? 23:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Whether some editors like it or not the source of the SoD is not only of Jewish origin, and therefore cannot now be claimed to be Jewish - as where the jews originated from or got their religious ideas from must be taken into account. Mr. Humus sapiens should refrain from allowing his religious beliefs from clouding his judgement, as belief is not proof nor does it premote any advancement in knowledge. Karen Solvig 22:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The other subjects talk about hexagram. I was particularly bothered by the proliferation of swastikas on this page. BTW, I did not disclose my religious beliefs so may I suggest you be careful in your assumptions and assume good faith. ←Humus sapiens ну? 09:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of Star of David from making Salt in Egypt

A very original theory about making salt in ancient Egypt by using straw frames in the shape of Star of David in order to crystalize the salt better see on http://star-of-david.blogspot.com/2006/05/salt.html

Zeevveez 04:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Star of David on the walls of the old city in Jerusalem

On http://www.crystalinks.com/suleiman.html there's a story about Sultan Suleiman (1494-1566) the Magnificent who built these walls (1535-1538). "It was Sultan Suleiman's messianic consciousness which led him to develop the link between himself and King Solomon. On the walls which he built around Jerusalem are stone decorations in the form of two interlocking triangles ­ Stars of David, known to Moslems as Khatam Suleiman and to Jews as Khatam Shlomo (King Solomon's Seal) ­ whose function was to protect the city". You can see photos of these Star of David on http://star-of-david.blogspot.com/2006/05/guards-on-walls-of-jerusalem.html

--Zeevveez--

[edit] Origin of the Star of David from the Tabernacle

The Hebrew Wikipedia for "magen David" (Star of David) mentions that there's a theory about the origin of the Star of David from the Tabernacle without referring to the representative of this theory, Uri Ofir, who published a research and a book about this http://star-of-david.blogspot.com/2006/04/jewish-origin-of-star-of-david.html

Zeevveez

[edit] The Star of David and Arabs/Islam

As the Arabs and Muslims are particularly averse of the star of David as one of the most prominant signs of Israel, I find the claim that they are/were using the star particularly strange. In particular, I am sure that no mosques currently have the shape.

It's a fact that Islam reveres David and Solomon as prophets, but the religion and its followers have very different beliefs and stories from the Jews narration of that period. It's also a fact that Islam architecture makes heavy use of the pentagram.

As the passage about Arabs and Islam doesn't actually support the claim that there is actual use of the star of David, I would suggest that it be omitted. Otherwise, clear example of such usage and the mention of reference(s) will be appreciated.--81.79.119.7 08:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Doing a google search the first hit I found had this picture [1]. Admittedly the big star doesn't have the internal lines, however I'm sure I could find some other examples that did. Just remember, the Star of David has only become an emblem of Judaism quite recently, so even a hundred years ago there wouldn't have been much reason for muslims to avoid using this symbol in art.
After a couple of minutes of searching, I've found some more examples: [2], [3] (from this page )
That particular kind of star made by two interlocking triangles is a really obvious design to use because it's so easy to tesselate. I'm not an expert on the subject, but if this design were not used in Islamic art, I would expect there to be a pretty strong reason why not. And until about the 20th Century, I can't think of what that reason might have been.
These examples were found in only a few minutes, with no expert knowledge on my part. Fuzzypeg 03:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I am the person who put the above comment, and I can see you have a pretty strong point. Especially after I checked the Karamanid flag and took another internet tour. Thanks for the explanation.
Should a statement be added to the effect that "After the establishment of the flag of Israel, Arabs and Muslims tend to stay clear of the use of the hexagram, while still making heavy use of the pentagram in current architecture."? I am not sure of the historical facts, if the refraint from hexagram has happened as a direct consequence of the flag or other events, though. --Karouri 16:56, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The hexagram is used in Mosque architecture because of its geometrical beauty. Dozens if not hundreds of shapes are used to decorate mosques. Hexagrams continue to be used in newly-contructed mosques around the world because its a part of the repatoire of arabesque designs that have been standard now for over a millenia. Just look at the mosque in DC or any number of mosques built in Jersey. Or the recontructed mosques in Bosnia, or the repair work done by the Saudis in Mecca and Medina, or the new mosques that are going up in Islamabad. Also the mosque in Paris. There is no basis to say that the hexagram is avoided. As a political symbol the hexagram is detested, but as an abstract geometrical design no one really cares. Ahassan05 17:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)ahassan05

I think the design of the six-pointed star is integral to Islamic art and architecture, and its use in Islam might predate its adoption as a Jewish symbol. I recommend that you all check this link [4] and read the date and the description of the object at the museum. A.Khalil 20:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Star and the Occult / Satanism

Oops. I removed the bit on the alleged relation to Satanism since I thought someone had mistaken this for a 5-sided pentagram. I see from Google that a six-sided star is occasionally connected with Satanism, but the inclusion of that tidbit here is clearly a bit of inflammatory anti-semitism, and I stand by its removal... Evercat 18:57, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps some of the stuff that's not related to Judaism could be moved to Hexagram (e.g. the bit Some cultures say etc) since this page is presumably about the Jewish use of the symbol. Evercat 19:02, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

OK, done that. The following got removed:

The symbol, itself, is noteworthy as an example of geometric symmetry. Some cultures say that the triangle pointing downwards represents female sexuality and the triangle poitning upwards represents male sexuality. The combination represents unity and harmony. In alchemy, the two triangles represent the reconciliation of the opposites of "fire" and "water". Others cynically observe that it is made up of two triangles pointing in opposite directions and therefore being an excellent symbol of the order and coherence (or rather lack thereof) of the modern Israeli state.

The shape of the star is identical to the hexagram used in Occult practices. If one examines the star of David one observes that it has six points on its outermost circle. It then has six intersecting points where each line is crossed by two others. Finally there is the innermost figure - a hexagon that is the six sided regular figure.

Some of it was just an anonymous go at Israel, and the second paragraph is an attempt to link Judaism with the number 666. I've not included these bits on hexagram.


I think the mention of the use of the Star of David by the occult is important to establish the fact that it pre-dates Judaism. It also explains why there is a significant number of Jews against the Star's use as the Israeli symbol and this helps explain why they reject it.

Afterall the Kabalah which introduced its usage in Judaism is also filled with much mysticism and magic. Is it unreasonable that this link is shown?

Perhaps not, but your first edit here included the line "This is three lots of 6, that is 666. In Christian revelations it mentions that you will know Satan by the number of the Beast-: 666." which doesn't make me trust your intentions here... Evercat 19:55, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I apologise for this mistake. The mention of 666 was not to tie it to Judaism but to the mentioned Satanism that the edit contained. I agree that the move of Satanism to the entry for hexagram is more appropriate.

Heh. OK, I guess. Though I'd be wary of making a direct tie between other groups' use of the symbol and the Christian 666... Evercat 20:06, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] The Star and Human Sexuality

I was wondering, is the bit about human sexuality relevant to the Star of David? I've removed it for now (and it is now at hexagram) but it can be restated if I've misjudged its relevance. Evercat 19:36, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] The Star As Used by Nazis

"A yellow-colored Star of David was used by the Nazis, during the Holocaust, as a method of identifying Jews"

Am I right that in the Warsaw ghetto, Jews were ordered to wear a white arm-band with a blue Star of David, or was this dramatic license in The Pianist? Were there any other variations? Mintguy 20:29, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

In occupied Poland Jews did wear a white armband with a blue star on it, as well as a patch on the front and back of their clothing. The Pianist was accurate (about that, if not much else.) Danny

From http://www.lambda.org/symbols.htm "Prisoners in Nazi concentration camps were labeled according to their crimes by inverted colored triangles."Regular" criminals were denoted by a green triangle, political prisoners by red triangles and Jews by two overlapping yellow triangles (to form the Star of David, the most common Jewish symbol). Homosexual prisoners wear labels with pink triangles. Gay Jews- the lowest form of prisoner- had overlapping yellow and pink triangles". See: http://star-of-david.blogspot.com/2006/05/pink-repression.html

--Zeevveez--

[edit] Hebrew Version of the Article

I'm betting that there's a version of this article in Hebrew. Does anyone know enough Hebrew to check if there is, and make a link if necessary? --cprompt 03:32, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I checked and there is no article in the Hebrew yet. To find it, cut and paste מגן דוד in the Hebrew search (on the bottom). When it is put in, I will add a link. Danny 03:42, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I found it: The Hebrew Version. --Nate3000 03:27, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning

The Kabbalistic meaning I heard about was that one of the triangles is heaven and the other earth.--Error 05:05, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

That's a very simplistic understanding. Another meaning is fire and water, another is spirit and matter. And that's just scratching the surface. In a different context again, in Egypt I believe (and this could be revisionist history, it would need to be checked) it represented Upper (southern) and Lower (northern) Egypt. Fuzzypeg 06:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christ is a Greek word for king

"Christ is a Greek word for king." Wikipedia had better remove the last outside link on the 'Star of David' page. That claim is nonsense. Christos is the Greek translation of the Hebrew 'Messias' - the Anointed One. HE IS THE KING, but that is not what the word 'Christos' means. What's the point of including such deceptive links in a serious encyclopedia?

Sorry, which link are you referring to? Jayjg 16:22, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Star of David in Antiquity

"not a single archeological proof exists as yet concerning the use of this symbol in the Holy Land in ancient times, even after King David" - when travelling through Israel in 1985, I visited the remains of ancient Kafarnaum (north of Lake Kinneret) and saw the ruins of a synagogue dating from the Roman period, clearly showing both hexagram and pentagram as prominent ornamental elements. -- Nullstein 15 April 2005

"Yay for you"? I don't understand...what are you looking for here? Kudos for your having gone a-gallivanting about the globe? I assume by "Kafarnaum", you mean "Qfar-Nachum". Despite the fact that the designs on the floor of the ruins of that particular synagogue happen to contain both pentagrams and hexagrams, I still fail to see the relevance of your observation wrt this article. At no point is any claim forwarded that this symbol has been synonymous with Jewishness since any point except late 16th Century Prague. Tomer TALK 07:35, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

pls see my reply at your talk page. Nullstein 11:47, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] On the Great Seal of the United States

Original text:

The Great Seal of the United States appears to contain an image of a Star of David. At the top of the front (Obverse) side of the Great Seal is a cluster of thirteen stars arranged in a "Star of David" shape, consisting of 13 smaller five-sided Stars probably symbolizing the 13 original colonies, above the eagle's head. The seal is found on the reverse side of the U.S. one dollar bill, and is also used in other governmental capacities. No-one is absolutely sure today why the seal contains this arrangement of the thirteen stars. Some historians think it was a way of showing gratitude to Haym Solomon (1740-1785), a prominent Jew acknowledged as the prime financier of the American side during the American Revolution and the American Revolutionary War of 1776. Some maintain Solomon designed the great seal himself. Others suggest the shape is merely coincidental.

Another reason has been postulated that perhaps it was a way of the Founding Fathers of the United States acknowledging the God of the Hebrew Bible because of their strong devotion to the "Old Testament" as a guide to life. Others have seen the pattern as a sign of Jewish conspiracy; these ideas are widely dismissed as anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.

I can't find any authoritative reference to anyone saying that the symbol had anything to do with Jews, or with Haym Solomon, outside of mirrored WP articles. This seemes highly dubious, which historians claim this? --Goodoldpolonius2 18:33, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Any theories beyond the obvious, that it represents the original thirteen states, are probably going to have to be treated as pure speculation. They may well be true, however there's no way of knowing... Fuzzypeg 06:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Magen David Adom

The paragraph about the conflict with the ICRCS is duplicate on the Magen David Adom page, and could probably be removed here. --Ikar.us 08:42:06, 2005-08-05 (UTC)

Agreed, done. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:05, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Origin : David al Rohi (real name : Menahem) in 1150 biggest messianic mouvement ?

Hi. (excuse my english) I read in a Jews history, wrote by Josy Eisenberg, that : in 1000-1100, there were many messianic mouvements, with sionism. One of the greatest was the on ef Menahem, which takes the messianic name of "David al Rohi". He makes stand up Jews of Kurdistan and Azerbaïdjan, Perse and Bagdad, and makes a hope of conquest of the sacred land.

He writes: it is since that, that the "David shield", erronously called "David star", became a jew symbol. Links with King Devid is totally fictive.

Really sorry for my english, i'm lazy, i'm not proud.

[edit] Beer History info

The bit about the Star of David as representing beer purity in the six parts of beer has a redundancy: the grain, the malt . . . malt IS grain. Need to check out Reinheitsgebot . . . --Vidkun 15:06, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

More about this on http://www.beerhistory.com/library/holdings/brewerstar.shtml http://star-of-david.blogspot.com/2006/05/brewers-star.html

--Zeevvez--

[edit] Dubious claim

The article claims that "According to official Raelian statements, the swastika 'represents infinity of time, and trace its origins to Sanskrit and Buddhist symbols, to the Chinese character for temple, and to ancient catacombs, mosques, and synagogues.'" Huh? The usual Chinese character for temple is 廟 and has absolutely nothing to do with a swastika. —Lowellian (reply) 07:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

actually, being familiar with raelian lores myself, they do claim that. i think what they are thinking is the word "卍" "literally meaning ten thousand, usually used to mean "many". It is a archaic version of the word 万or 萬 (ponounced same as the english word "one") ) and yeah it's still used in temples... and apparently its used enough that you can actually type it out with a computer. i think the japanese use it more, i see a lot of it in mangas and animes, they pronounce it "ban"... BUT ANYWAY what does the the swachitka have to do with the star of david? other than that they were used as symbols of two opposing factions (nazis and jews)..


Here's another one: "It is possible that it was the Kabbalah that derived the symbol from the Templars." What do Templars have to do with Cabbalah? What Conspiracy theorist put this on the page? 14 March 2006

[edit] Shield or Star

Shouldn't it be mentioned that Star is incorrect and the page should be "Shield of David"?
Metallurgist 01:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Is the shield correct either? I found what seems like a rather good article about the development of the symbol here. It has lots of info that the editors here may wish to include in this article. Cheers, Fuzzypeg 12:20, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] politics and christians and star of david

Is it just me or is the phrase "supportive of the nation of isreal" seem way too politically charged. the article gives the impression that christian churches display the star of david because "MOST" chritians support the nation isreal. (although humus noted that the "nation of isreal" and "state of isreal" are techically different, its unlikely that people reading casually will notice the difference.)

well this this just isnt true... most chritians are indifferent toward the current arab isreali conflict, and if anything, western history have a long tradition of anti-semitism. Older churches like the catholic church had official anti-jewish policies til the 20th century.

unless someone can provide a citaion that architects of independent anglican and baptist church chose to display the star of david to show that the church's support toward the nation of isreal, i think we should delete that part. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Forgot (talk • contribs).

I agree, this is awkward wording. I am not the author, but correct me if I am wrong: the scriptures of all these Christian demoninations mention "Israel" (I never point to spelling mistakes but please, Forgot, you keep misspelling it). By that they usually mean supersessionism, not the Jewish people. This needs to be fixed. ←Humus sapiens ну? 03:14, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Since the developments in that section predate the Arab-Israeli conflict, it should not be in the picture. ←Humus sapiens ну? 03:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unrelated content

Per suggestion of other editor, I've moved most of the unrelated content to Hexagram. Hope it works for everybody. ←Humus sapiens ну? 23:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

When it's called Star of David, it symbolizes Jewish identity. All the other uses belong to hexagram. Please do not move talk pages into article space and read WP:D. You are a new user (welcome!), please take a look at WP:NOR, WP:RS and WP:V. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ну? 09:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Correction about Yehuda Hadassi

G.S. Oegema, Realms of Judaism, claims on page 51 that :"the earliest literary reference to the use of the Shield of David as a Jewish magic sign is not found in the 242nd chapter of the book Eshkol Hacoffer of the Karaite Yehuda Hadassi, from the 12th century, as is often written, but a copyist of later times could easily associate the words of Psalms 121:7-8…with the…Magen David"

Zeevveez 17:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

The Star of David has a shape, a meaning and a name:

1. Meaning: The Star of David is a symbol, an emblem, a logo of Judaism and Zionism.

2. Shape: The Star of David is a shape, a hexagram, a six-pointed star formed by two equilateral triangles which have the same center and are placed in opposite directions. It can be: (a) two dimensional or (b) three dimensional like perforation, or engraving or (c) three dimensional created by two interlocking tetrahedrons.

3. Name: The Star of David is the Shield of David, which refers to the Lord, who is also the Shield of Abram. The same name serves both the Jewish and the Christian Stars of David and there's a need for disambiguation.

4. Product: The Star of David is a product in the shape of a six-pointed star, such as necklace, earring, lampshade etc.

Trying to define the Star of David by its shape alone is not enough - even though the Star of David is a hexagram not every hexagram is a Star of David. This is a source of confusion for many people who see it on Indian temples, or as sheriffs' badges, or as Chinese checkers etc.

Trying to define it by the name alone is not enough since it has other meanings that are not necessarily connected to the shape.

Trying to define it as a product alone is not enough since there are non- Jewish products in the same shape.

So my definition is: The Star of David is the name of a two or three dimensional six-pointed star which is the emblem of Judaism and Zionism.

See: http://star-of-david.blogspot.com/2006/06/definition.html http://star-of-david.blogspot.com/2006/05/guidelines.html

Zeevveez 19:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dispensationalist comment

Regarding the Dispensationalist teaching that the Star of David is really the "Satanic star of Remphan" -- Hezbollah slurring of the Star is expected, but a comment of that nature from a Dispensationalist group is not, since Dispensationalists generally consider themselves pro-Israel. IMHO, Humus, that makes it notable, whether we consider it (1) an interesting contradiction in Dispensationalist theology, or (2) a revealing insight into what Dispensationalists consider "pro-Israel" to mean. Now, if we want to talk about putting this info in the Disp article instead of here, that's certainly a discussion. I'm not trying to be troublesome, but in light of how much American foreign policy is influenced by Dispensationalist Christianity, I think this info belongs somewhere. --Jay (Histrion) (talk • contribs) 21:46, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] wrong info

i found some mistakes in the information you provided on this page as far as translation. when talking about the letters completing the names of the angels it is in the word magen (shield) and not david.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.34.219.240 (talk • contribs).

Please sign your posts and consider registering. In any case, feel free to contribute constructively in any way. ←Humus sapiens ну? 00:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mogen David Wineries

Mogen David wineries, now owned by The Wine Group, makes kosher wines such as MD 20/20.

This is my first time looking at the article, but this seems more like an advertisement than a note. Should this be deleted? AOEU 00:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Random unrelated info

Remember kıds wikipedia is not a reliable source and you should always check your work

To whoever the hell wrote this, this is unrelated to the article, I've removed it. If anyone wants to argue, including the one that wrote it, please do. This is not only childish but also publically vandalizing an important article.

Shimoji Kawazaki 15:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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