Talk:Stød

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The choice of "hatter" as example is confusing because the Danish word is "hatte". --Troels Nybo 18:48, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] West, South, glottal stop and more

I see several problems here: 1. "Some dialects of Eastern Danish realize stød which is more similar to the prosodic word accents of Norwegian and Swedish" "Southern Danish" seems closer to the truth, as the map shows, too.

2. "in Western Jutland it is realized as something reminiscent of a glottal stop." The so-called vestjysk stoed (being a glottal stop) is a completely different phenomenon with distribution rules that are diametrically opposite to the rules for standard Danish stoed. As far as I know, the normal Danish stoed with its normal distribution also occurs in West Jutland and coexists with vestjysk stoed, but it keeps its normal creaky voice realization.

3. The article doesn't mention the fact that also Standard Danish might realize stoed as a glottal stop for emphasis. (see the reference in the topic on Peter Isotalo's talk page). --85.187.203.123 00:57, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

2. The comment about stød in Western Jutland is straight from Basbøll's The Phonology of Danish. Is your statement based on Grønnum or is this your own deduction?

3. I couldn't find anything in Basbøll about especially emphatic stød being a glottal stop. Either I missed it or Basbøll overlooked it, so I'd love to see someone read it more carefully than I did or explain why Basbøll forgot to mention it.

Peter ^Isotalo 22:14, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

2. Well, the fact that vestjysk stoed is a completely different phenomenon than central Danish stoed is something you can find anywhere (Groennum doesn't mention vestjysk stoed at all) and they co-exist (e.g. Fischer-Joergensen writes that ""a large area in the western part of Jutland has both the common Danish stoed and the so-called "West Jutlandish stoed". I don't have Basboell's book on me, so I don't know what he has written, exactly, but I am 99% sure that he was referring to the West Jutland stoed, not to the stoed in West Jutland (a subtle but important difference). The fact that vestjysk stoed is reminiscent of a glottal stop is mentioned e.g. by Swedish phonetician Eva Gaarding who calls it "an energetic contraction of the glottis", whose "aural impression is similar to the glottal stop found in English dialects". The precise statement that the common Danish stoed is opposed to West Jutland as a creaky voice to a glottal stop is something that I have read, if I remember correctly, in works by linguists Salomon Kacnel'son and Anatoly Liberman. In a recent paper, Liberman states that CD stoed is "constrictive (the more usual case) or occlusive" as opposed to WJ stoed, which is "occlusive": "each has its own realization, and native speakers do not confuse them"; he even mentions that there are a couple of minimal pairs.

3. I have no idea why he overlooked it. Groennum is no less as an authority for me. :) Maybe there is a controversy, but I have never heard of it.--85.187.44.131 21:32, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I mailed Nina Groennum to ask if there is a controversy and she said that to the best of her knowledge there is none. --85.187.44.131 17:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prosodic vs tonal word accents

Calling the Swedish-Norwegian word accents "prosodic" accents is:

1. too broad. They aren't just prosodic, they are above all tonal in terms of recognition, and studies have shown that clearly. The other cues (duration, intensity) are secondary.

2. insufficient to separate them from stoed, since it's a prosodic "accent" as much as they are. I can support that with quotations if necessary.

3. A tautology, since any accent is prosodic by definition.

--85.187.44.128 21:00, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I can recommend actually reading up on concepts before making these kinds of comments. The term prosody includes the concept of tone. It's even in our own article.

Peter ^Isotalo 22:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I can recommend actually reading comments before commenting them. I never said "prosody" didn't include tone, I said it is too broad a concept. In other words, it doesn't include just tone, it also includes duration, intensity, etc.. I never said the accents weren't prosodic. If you're interested in what I was saying, please read my original comment again. --85.187.44.128 10:28, 26 March 2006 (UTC)