Talk:Squatting

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Contents 1 BSDM? 2 Farmers 3 Two meanings 3.1 Split to Squatting (pastoral) 4 Squatting in LDCs 5 St. Agnes Place 6 Socially interesting? 7 Expansion of section on South Africa 8 Use of fotos 9 Squatting in caves and abandoned mines?

[edit] BSDM?

the article says that "some" Social Centers are hosting BSDM rooms. i visited most squats defined social centers all around Europe in the past 10 years and i never saw nor heard of something like that.

I have heard of groups such as Queeruption doing parties with darkrooms etc in squats such as Africa (Amsterdam) and KOPI (Berlin), but I agree that there are probably not permanent BDSM rooms Mujinga 21:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Farmers

Squatters The early squatters were brave farmers who moved out to newly discovered lands in the hope of finding a place they could settle for themselves.

Yeah, brave murderous farmers who stole land from its rightful owners--Native Americans. How is the land "newly discovered" if people have been living their for thousands of years? I'm all for modern squatting of unused buildings and land, but amercian 'pioneers' were just a bunch of greedy losers.

First of all, most Native Americans didn't believe in land ownership, so your first point is moot. And a pluarity of those greedy losers were the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" that the empires of Europe didn't want anymore, the rest being refugees of the War of Northern Agression. As for murderous, the native tribes had been relegated to reservations by the Yankee government long before the pioneers ever arrived out west. Righteous indignation is all well and good, but it really does behoove one to do a little independent research before spouting what some agenda-driven professor told you.170.215.105.201 06:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two meanings

I would suggest that a distinction be made between squatting (1) as the act of initially settling on Crown land without permission, as in the Australian pastoral expansion or the westward movement in the USA in the nineteenth century, and (2) the more modern, principally urban act, of occupying a building without any right or title. It seems to me that the motivation and methods of these two processes are fundamentally different, and the use of the same term muddies this distinction. So, could we disambiguate between, say, "Squatting (pastoral)" and "Squatting (urban)". I'm not fussed whether the heading refers to the act (squatting) or the person (squatter). Dick 21:16, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think you will find that the "more modern, principally urban act" of occping private property without the owners permission is actually the older usage, adn goes back in english law before the settlement of either Austrialia or the Americas, and applies to both buildings and undeveloped land. Thjis I think that your distinction is incorrect and should not be made. There may be a distinction to be made between squatting on public and private property. Note that "homesteading" in the US westward expansion was not considered squattign -- it was a procedure created by statute where a person family could occupy unclaimed public land of a certian size, and if they lived on it and developed it to a specified standard within a specified time would be granted title, and in the mean time had legal rights to occupy the land. DES 07:42, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

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I think this page is not exactly NPOV. It needs a section on how to get rid of squatters too.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.203.116.246 (talk • contribs) 06:45, 13 August 2005 (UTC+11 hours) __

[edit] Split to Squatting (pastoral)

Dick's suggestion that a distinction should be made between the two types of squatting that he outlines is quite correct, and he is also correct in stating the placement of both types within the same article "muddies the distinction". The attempt by DES to counter this is way off the mark. The question of which type of squatting is older than the other is totally irrelevant and misses the point. Talking of "homesteading" in the USA is another red herring; this is an Australian term. In Australia for much of the 19th century squatters were in the upper echelons of society. Their activities were illegal for only a short period, but the term stuck. It started off as derogatory, but very rapidly became a badge of honour. At their height these guys (& the occasional woman) were the feudal landlords of vast domains, and held great sway - economically, socially & politically - in Australia. They are as different as chalk & cheese to the essentially urban & underclass squatters to which most of this article refers. By the way the term "squatter" to describe a large land-owner is still in use in Australia in rural areas. In cities the term would more likely apply to the 2nd category (as outlined by Dick). Hopefully common sense will prevail & this article is split into the two categories. Ikeshut 23:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I would support a split to Squatting (pastoral) leaving a reference to that main article in this article. I suspect that otherwise this article covers urban and other squatting.--Golden Wattle ^talk 23:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

sorry but i really don't understand what you mean with this pastoral squatting? indeed the use of the word in australia sounds very confusing, anyway the concept of squatting deals with land owners that have more space than they can occupy themselves; so i'm not surprised is just used for its counterpart, it happens in languages. jaromil 01:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I've created the new article Squatting (pastoral), leaving a link in the "squatting" article & added a link to the squat disambiguation page. Ikeshut 05:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Squatting in LDCs

I think this article completely misses the larger portion of squatters in the world: squatters in lesser-developed countries (LDCs). As Robert Neuwirth writes in Shadow Cities, there are 1 billion squatters in the world, and the number is not projected to fall anytime soon. Most of these people are not squatting to make a statement, because they're anarchists, or any other typical university student-type idea. They're doing it because they lack the option to live legally. The introduction to the article does mention the favelas of Brazil, but it could go much further in that direction. It especially should discuss squatters' rights in the developing areas of the world.

Um, maybe I'll get to that when I have time. This is wikipedia, after all.

[edit] St. Agnes Place

...is defunct, or so says the article elsewhere on wikipedia. I know nothing about this, but... Something Should Be Done. 14:38, —preceding unsigned comment by 24.91.23.134 (talk • contribs) 5 December 2005 (UTC+11 hours )

[edit] Socially interesting?

I read "squats are often socially interesting places". What do you mean with "socially interesting"? I live in a town that is full of squats, and sincerely I could objects on this point: there are some interesting places, and some other (the majority, according to me) that are far from being interesting. Guys, gimme some clue! --Angelo 23:02, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree a POV unverified statement. Hence I will remove. The statement may apply to some of the very famous suats, but the they have their own mentions anyway.--A Y Arktos 04:08, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

My own POV/first-hand experience is that they are interesting because:

The occupants know that the property is not theirs, so the usual "My pink side of the drainpipe" does not apply; meaning squabbles about property ownership. It´s an interesting study on the idea of "All for one, and one for all" theory.

There are lots of reasons why they are not good: because of easy access to drugs/a place where dealers can make a living. Their neighbours are also put under pressure because of the their frequent complaints about parties, and general noise. And why do a lot of people that live in squats have ´raggedy´ mongrel dogs?

andreasegde 16:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

'Socially interesting places' is pretty vague and POV without references or justification, but I would interpret the statement as alluding to the idea that living rent free is an attractive option for artists and musicians who therefore have time to spend on their vocation rather than being trapped in the cycle of working all day to pay the bills for living (rent, electricity etc). Squats therefore tend to have more 'going on' than normal rented apartments both in terms of the range activities being organised from them and more superficially, in terms of the way they appear (painted bright or with lots of agitprop stuck to the walls). Squats can often (in my experience) be interesting both because of the different types of people living there and becuase of the principles they are run on - many radical social centres are found in squats. A squat can be said to be a concrete example of resistance to a capitalistic system which prizes property over people. I could go on, but you probably get my drift. Mujinga 15:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion of section on South Africa

The section on squatting in South Africa could mention the "Red Ants", the procedure for evicting squatters and the legal status of squatter camps. Park3r 13:49, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of fotos

I reverted to a previous edit to remove the two photographs added today by User:Rafti_Institute. I did this because they are not acceptable under the guidelines of:

• 1 no Original research,
• 2 keeping a neutral point of view,
• 3 being verifiable.

To explain my decision, i will take each photo in turn:

Image: Squat_home.jpg came with the text: Very often squatters block off windows to hide the fact that the building is occupied, they are also likely to not take their own garbage out, which tends to encourage insect and rodent infestations.

• no original research - altho the text for the photo could be said to refer to a point made in the article about squatters hiding out in so-called "back window squats" in the USA, it proceeds to propose its own theory about litter and vermin
• NPOV - very often, likely and tends are not neutral point of view
• verifiable - there is no mention of where the squat is/was, or even if it really was a squat

Image: Squat_bed.jpgcame with the text: This is a squatter’s bedroom. Many squatters have drug or alcohol problems and also may be suffering from mental illness, which in part explains living conditions like this

• no original research - again the photo proposes its own theory, rather than illustrating a point made in the article
• NPOV - the whole text is not NPOV!
• verifiable - where is the bedroom? proof of alcohol/drug problems? how do we know this is even a photo of a squat? saying it is "in america" is not enough

Moving forward, i can see that these images could be of use in this article, if illustrating a point made in it, if verified and if both the theory presented in the article and the labelling of the photo are NPOV. There are indeed squatters who leave a mess and have problems, just as there are renters and owners who leave a mess in their house and have mental health issues or drug problems. The article would certainly benefit from a well-researched addition on this theme. Mujinga 18:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

• Good job there! Boabbriggs 09:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Squatting in caves and abandoned mines?

Has anyone heard of people doing this? It was apparantly fairly common in areas of the Appalatchians during the Civil War and Great Depression, and rumour has it that small communities are living in some of the old mines to this very day. I could imagine people staying in them for short periods of time, but staying down there for very long seems to me like a good way to get yourself killed. 170.215.105.201 06:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

There are people squatting in the caves of the Alhambra in Spain and I have seen homeless people sleeping in caves in the parks in and around Prague, in the Czech Republic. The award-winning film Dark Days is a documentary about people living beside the metro tunnels in New York, in the USA. I imagine there are many other places worldwide where people squat unused underground structures either natural or man-made. It wouldn't necessarily be a dangerous thing to do. Mujinga 14:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)