Talk:Spring Offensive

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At least one expert analyst at the Combat Studies Institute, U.S. Army Command and General Staff College disputes this account (in The Dynamics of Doctrine: The Change in German Tactical Doctrine During the First World War, Timothy Lupfer, in Leavenworth Papers No4, US ISSN 0195 3451). That analysis raises serious questions to both the account given here of the genesis of stormtrooper tactics, and Ludendorff's alleged insensitivity to them. This article as it stands is therefore lacking NPOV. Adhib 09:29, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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Moving this page to Spring Offensive because it discussed both sides of the offensive, not merely German planning, and there is currently no wider article. 119 22:16, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hutier Tactics

Sorry if I've caused offence, but the detailed description of 'Hutier tactics' and mentions of battles in other theatres seems better placed in the article of that name than in an article dealing with the progress of a campaign -IMHO. This article already has a brief reference to them and a link to the specific article and also an external link to 'Stormtrooper Tactics'. Folks at 137 17:34, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Looting halted the offensive

I've read in a book about the war that the German troops stopped attacking when they encountered the allies supplies of food and wine. Generally they were badly fed and the abundance they suddenly encountered caused them to stop fighting and loot instead. I've forgotten the name of the book though, but this story should not be too hard to verify.

--itpastorn 12:56, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

You can find info on that in Erich Maria Remarque's famous novel "All Quiet on the Western Front". Many of the conversations revolve around food as supplies are so low that the soldiers have to eat sawdust. When they storm enemy trenches, they feast on the food they find there and drink the rancid cooling water from the machine guns. I'd add full quotations but I haven't got an English edition. --84.153.181.208 23:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Rudolf Binding is quoted in Lidell-Harts history of WW1 eg "there is no doubt the army is looting with some zest" and more besides. GraemeLeggett 14:43, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Feuerwalze" does not mean "Fire Waltz"

Unless there is an obscure secondary meaning of the English word "waltz", I think the translation given in the article is incorrect. AFAIK English "waltz" refers to a dance; German "Walze", on the other hand, means "roller" like in "steam roller", a slowly progressing, barrel-shaped object. Trust me on the meaning of the German word (I am German), but could a native English speaker please comment on whether or not English "waltz" covers that meaning, too.

As the person who wrote the text under question, let me comment. I took the term Feuerwalze from the book 1918 The Year of Victories, where it's translated as "Firewaltz" (p13). This translation is plausible, since a waltz is a dance, and there's an English expression "to lead someone a dance" meaning to confuse or cause trouble. The steam roller meaning makes sense, however, and there's no equivalent meaning of "waltz" in English. BTW, please don't forget forget to sign & date stamp your entries by typing four tildes (see below). Folks at 137 14:12, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I agree that fire waltz would definitely make sense, but it does not seem to be the correct translation. I consulted the German wikipedia, which offered the information that it was called "Feuerwalze" because the concentrated artillery fire slowly progressed towards enemy lines and crossed them (supposedly flattening all resistance like a roller flattens the ground); the infantry followed closely to storm the trenches.

Therefore, I think the translation in the book quoted should be considered an erratum. I do not , however, feel up to the task of replacing the expression; does "fire roller" sound acceptable to native English speakers, or can you think of a better solution? --84.153.204.112 14:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

"Firewaltz" is incorrect: agreed. I'm tring to select an appropriate equivalent English expression. "Fire-roller" is strictly accurate as a word-for-word translation, and might suffice, but doesn't (IMHO) convey the impact and methodical nature of the concept - that you describe and I agree with. I think we should create a new page to describe "Feuerwalze", and keep the untranslated "feuerwalze" in articles. This would continue the informal practice whereby "blitz", "blitzkrieg", "schadenfreude" and words from other languages have been used and adopted into English. Perhaps we should collaborate...I might draft something soon. Anyone else have a view? Folks at 137 17:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

More thoughts and a query. What you described sounds more like a "rolling barrage" - indiscriminate and massive. I thought "feuerwalze" was more targetted - precise targets hit accurately in a defined sequence, an efficient use of ordnance. What do you think? Folks at 137 17:58, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

"Rolling barrage" sounds like a very good translation to me. I also find it a good idea to create a "Feuerwalze" article of its own. I have never done this before, however, and feel a bit daunted by the task, what with all the rules and naming conventions. I do want to be helpful though, so I sat down and did a translation of the "Feuerwalze" article from the German Wikipedia. I have done my very best, but I do not claim correctness of spelling and/or grammar. Here it is:

"A “Feuerwalze“ is an offensive military tactic employed to support advancing infantry.

This tactic was first used in 1916 during World War I by German artillery at the Eastern front. In the “Feuerwalze”, artillery fire was concentrated on the area lying immediately in front of the attacking infantry. According to a plan devised in advance, the artillery fired at a broad strip of the front lines, then moved some meters in the direction of the enemy, while the infantry – following as closely as possible – moved into the area that had just been shelled.

This tactic had the theoretical advantage of holding down enemy infantry; thus, the attacking infantry could gain ground even in areas that were strongly fortified. The disadvantage was that the tactic could not be adapted to the changing situation on the battlefield, because the means of telecommunication in use at the time were incapable of establishing a reliable exchange between the infantry and the artillery. Thus, the “Feuerwalze” sometimes left the infantry far behind if the soldiers had to advance through rough territory or if they met with strong enemy resistance. On the other hand, the slowly moving shelling hampered a quick attack of the infantry if there was less resistance than expected. Also, in contrast to a longer-lasting barrage, the “Feuerwalze” did not cause enough damage to barbed wire fortifications and dugouts. It transpired that that the time between the passing of the “Feuerwalze” and the arrival of the attacking infantry was often long enough for the defenders to take positions in the trenches.

The strategic effect of the “Feuerwalze” was ultimately limited by the range of the artillery, because the heavy guns were slow to follow a successful infantry advance, so sooner or later the infantry had to do without the protecting barrage." --84.153.181.208 21:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I just realized that we, disappointingly, may have done a lot of work in vain: I looked up "rolling barrage" in the English Wikipedia; I was redirected to "creeping barrage", and the explanation is almost exactly what I wrote above... with the exception that in the German article, the writer claims inventorship of the "Feuerwalze" for the Germans ;-). Maybe we should just add the info that "Feuerwalze" equals "creeping barrage" in this article...--84.153.181.208 21:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not happy. "rolling" or "creeping barrage" is as you describe - a massive attempted demolition and intimidation of defenders. However, my understanding of "Feuerwalze" is something else. The rolling barrage made the ground difficult ro move across (not what the stormtroopers needed) and used large amounts of ordnance. I thought "feuerwalze" was more targetted - precise targets hit accurately in a defined sequence with a mix of HE, shrapnel and gas, an efficient use of ordnance. Moreover, it would be quick - to avoid enemy reaction to an obvious preparation. What do you think? BTW, have you considered adopting a name for yourself? Folks at 137 08:58, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not happy either; I hoped that we would be able to contribute something new to the Wikipedia. I am not an expert on WWI Tactics, however, and the information I have gathered so far leads me to the conclusion that "Feuerwalze" is probably a creeping barrage with a flashy German name :-(. I'll try and get more info on that, but while German libraries are usually full of books on politics during the war, you rarely find anything about tactics. Yes, I have thought about adopting a name - but to be quite frank, I am completely ignorant of how this is done...(edit: okay, figured it out)--84.153.129.211 11:12, 21 January 2006 (UTC)