User talk:Sponsianus
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I dont know who you are or what you .About "definitely not in good taste" maybe its doesnt taste good for you and about the copyright I had contacted them before writting the article , so I have their permission.I dont see any points explaining to people like you ,but will accept an apology . Amir85 3:35 ,29 June 2005 (UTC)
Best Amir85!
I - as in me, Jens Jakobsson - wrote that article on the Seleucids in Persia only some months ago, and no person has contacted me from Iranchamber.com to check if I wanted it published on Wikipedia. If you have actually asked Iranchamber for copyright, the aforementioned "not good taste" also refers to them and not you because I could not possibly imagine them doing such a thing without asking me. If you can give me confirmation on this I will indeed withdraw my accusation of stealing my article.
But if that much is true, it is still in bad taste of you not to give any reference to the author - neither to Iranchamber nor me. It is very simple, Amir85. If you use other people's material, the very least you could do is to give them credit. And you certainly know this - I can't believe you think it's OK to post my article anonymously!
By doing as you did, you either make people believe you wrote it and give you undeserved credit - or very logically suspect you of stealing it, if they have seen the material before. So I am still awaiting your apology.
User:Sponsianus 21:20 03 Jul 2005
Hi Sponsianus. I am glad you got the Bopearachchi book! Unfortunately I am away from my home for a little more than weeks, so I won't be able to give you any help on the French text (but I will gladly do so on my return). Regards, PHG 05:01, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Reported Seleucid dynasty as copyvio
Dear Sponsianus,
Amir85, I've discovered, is prone to copyright violation. I am somewhat doubtful that he got "permission" from Iranchamber for his copvio, and even if he HAD, it is not the policy of Wikipedia to just cut-n-paste from other sites. Any information here has to be either public domain, or written by people who intend to donate their words and images to the world. That is because we have no limitations on commercial re-use. Anyone could publish a book consisting solely of articles cockaroached from Wikipedia, and it would be legally OK -- even though morally disgusting.
I have reported the article as a copyvio. It will either be rewritten completely, or expunged. It will probably be expunged, since there is already a Seleucid empire article.
The problematic parts of Wikipedia are the parts where there is no community of seasoned editors keeping on eye on developments. In the central areas, so to speak, any change is scrutinized ruthlessly. In the outliers, kooks and copyviolators run amok, because no one notices what they're doing. Unfortunately, a lot of the humanities/social science articles are outliers. Wikipedia was started by a bunch of computer geeks, and it has always been strongest in the computers/math/science area. I'm one of the people trying to change that, but it's slow. Zora 09:13, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Dear unknown
This is what u've written for Zora about me "....There is no denying that the influx of people grown up in dictatures and taught only nationalistic and biased views of history and religion often is a severe problem..." "...A user like Amir85 (he's Iranian) probably believes in the propaganda he writes, because he's never learnt to think critically about it!..."
I dont know who you are but let me tell you something as one of the rules of wisdom if u dont know about somebody u cant make a conclusion for him/her.
1.I know and respect Greek and hellenic cultures as much as or even more than Persian culture. 2.I've never been to Iran. 3.I not a nationalist extremist , you know it.
I will accept your apology for your injudicious comments about me
By the way from your comment "... I am writing articles on hellenism and the like, which often concern Middle East topics, and I am like you driven to despair over much of what is written..."Be specific about biased propagandas in history of Persia , I want to know.
[edit] Final reply to Amir85
Since your discussion page seems to be emptied, Amir85, I reply here. You have indeed stated that Iran (Persia) is your beloved country and so I naturally thought you were an Iranian. As for specifics of biased propaganda, I once again refer to the article you posted about the Persian general Rostam Farokhzad and the following very typical example.
"This soil (pointing at the Persian Soil on the ground) is my blood & veins, I cannot give it away, I need it to live." Great words of wisdom from a great Nationalist. Later on, Arabs used all kinds of treachery in this war & finally Rostam ended up fighting Arabs until the last drop of blood in his body."
This is biased propaganda - the author describes Persians as heroes and Arabs as villains in a subjective style. It is not a proper description of how the Sassanid empire was overtaken by the Arabian Caliphate which is what Wikipedia readers should be given.
This propaganda, which you submitted, is unsuitable for a dictionary - period. If you don't realise this by yourself, there is little I can do to explain myself further.
The same goes for your copying of my Seleucid article. If you don't understand - you are obviously a grown up man - that it is not acceptable to post other people's work without mentioning the author's name (and instead take the credit yourself) then I cannot see how I can make you realise it. Unfortunately. --Sponsianus 18:10, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] The answer
You didnt answer my questions first of all my friend you are also a grown up so how can you accuse somebody to something when you dont know him/her thoroughly , secondly where are the "biased propagandas" in history of Persia that I asked you putting Rostam Farokhzad aside? --Amir85 8:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Examples - you got them!
Best Amir85, I did not accuse you when I assumed you had not been educated in objective history writing. I was trying to excuse your behaviour. Even if "your" article on Rostam (though I guess you copied it from somewhere else - as the complaints on the discussion page imply) was by far the worst example, all your contributions are written in a subjective nationalistic tone. I can take tons of examples, but frankly I have little hope you will get my points. Rest assured though, others who read it will. But I will do as you ask:
"This great man of Persian (Iranian) history, with his immense and powerful conviction, almost single handedly resurrected the old glory of Iran and helped save her true identity." "For Keikhosrow Shahrokh, the love of Iran ran deep to the core of his existence."
From your article on Keikhosrow Shahrokh. Phrases like "The true glory of Iran" and pathetic descriptions of nationalistic pathos do not belong in a dictionary. You may like this man and are well allowed to praise his efforts, but not like this!
This is a confirmation that the Charter of freedom of Humankind issued by Cyrus the Great on his coronation day in Babylon could be considered superior to the Human Rights Manifesto issued by the French revolutionaries in their first national assembly. The Human Rights Manifesto looks very interesting in its kind regarding the expressions and composition, but the Charter of Freedom issued twenty three centuries before that by the Iranian monarch sounds more spiritual.
From your article on the Cyrus Cylinder. It is utterly ridicilous to claim Cyrus the Great as a great protagonist of human rights in any modern sense of the word. I do indeed admire the humanistic tone of this cylinder, but it is very clear that Cyrus was an autocrat king, a dictator who more or less claimed to be a god himself. He was not a democrat, and the old Achaemenid kingdom was no democracy. It was an empire which expanded by wars and conquests, and where many people were enslaved.
If you read between the lines, the "human rights" are more describing how Cyrus removed authority from other kings and placed it all in his own hands, because he is chosen by the Gods. In another passage, he describes that he will not attack anybody until the gods decide it's time for him to do so.
"From now on, till (Ahura) Mazda grants me the kingdom favor, I will impose my monarchy on no nation"
It takes little logic to realise that when the gods "grant" Cyrus a kingdom, he will attack that kingdom. And who interprets the will of the gods? - Cyrus himself or priests loyal to him! In other words, we have an imperialist who hides behind "the will of the gods" to motivate his conquests. Note that this is only what many other rulers - including Greeks and Romans - often did, but to claim that the Achaemenid empire invented the Human Rights is nothing but ignorant propaganda.
And finally, you took my article on the Seleucids in Iran and put it up as an article about the Seleucids in general, giving a rather unbalanced view of the Seleucid empire - because the article omits much of the Seleucid history outside Iran.
[edit] Dear Sponsianus
My replies are in italics --Sponsianus 18:30, 1 September 2005 (UTC) My replies are in bold text --Amir85 8:30, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Well I'll answer all your comments one by one but before that first of all I dont know who you are , what you do and what level of historical knowledge you have (no user page) and secondly I havent forgotten you , refusing to apologize me for your statement you'd made about me to zora and I dont think you're willing to do it .
Certainly not. Given your text about Rosham Farohzad, I was very kind and moderate. And you seem to show no remorse about your blatant copyvio of my Seleucid text. Where is the permission from Iranchamber which you claimed you had? Please feel free to ask them to forward it here and tell me they accepted that you copied my text and claimed it as yours! First of all you didnt answer me about yourself and what level of historical knowledge you have.I'm not going to forward it because I dont trust someone I dont know and I never claimed that was my article.One their condition to use their text was to metion its source site which I did it in 'see Also' section of the article.
1.I dont think you know properly about contemporary history of Iran.After Qajar dynasty , Iran was in desperate need for nationalism and revival of its ancient identity so people like Keikhosrow Shahrokh are treated as saviours of the nation though it may have caused extreme nationalism just like ataturk in Turkey.So the article is written in a way to take the reader to those times and the way Iranian society wanted Iran to be. But please feel free to write that: "many Iranians saw Keikhoshrow as a saviour." That is an objective statement, unlike the quote:
"This great man of Persian (Iranian) history, with his immense and powerful conviction, almost single handedly resurrected the old glory of Iran and helped save her true identity."
That quote is propaganda.
Will do it
2.About Cyrus cylinder I didnt get your point.Its not hard to understand why it "could" be considered superior to the Human Rights Manifesto issued by the French revolutionaries in their first national assembly ,being the first , issued 2300 years before french revolution and by standards of its era it was not only great but outstanding.Dont forget how the French revolutionaries treated the royal family and noblemen and whoever was in their way which sometimes were intellectuals.
Sigh. Nobody has said that "democrat" cannot commit atrocities and "dictators" cannot be tolerant. But unlike the Human Rights Manifesto the Cyrus cylinder does not reflect any efforts to even attempt a more democratic society. Cyrus was an autocrat with unlimited powers. Such an organisation of a state is not compatible with human rights, however mild and tolerant Cyrus appeared on his edicts. Either you get this or you don't.
It wasnt reflecting any efforts to even attempt a more democratic society , but no one claimed it to be democracy cylinder.how do you think Babylon or egypt or Mesopotamia were being governed ? were they telorant of other religions and beliefs ? do you know how they treated jews and other minorities? How brutal were kingdoms in ancient Mesopotamia ? So what Cyrus did was to give rights to people of all religions and beliefs to have their own rights ( but not meddle in his rule of course) so it was much superior to what has been ruling in these conquered nations.did you get it or again you want to mention he was an autocrat and not a democrat?
3.Here is another sign of your boasting about History of Iran and how you love to criticize with no knowledge (Zora has the same characteristic if you look at her edits in Elamite and Khuzestan)when you are criticizing Cyrus II , sure Achaemenids were no democrats but they were telorant of other races and faiths , they didnt look to other races and people as "barbarians" specially Cyrus II was the most telorant and well-disposed ruler of Achaemenid.Yes he loved to conquer new countries (with order of gods) just like Alexander or Trajan (they had their gods behind them as one the reasons to attack other nations) but with a difference that he did it with minimal casualties mostly bloodless victories and by respecting the conquered traditions and beliefs.Liberation of jews from babylon is one of the examples of his manner and allow them to rebuild their temple at Jerusalem.(He has been named as kind and good ruler both in jewish writings and bible.
Nobody has said that Alexander or Trajan did not conquer new countries. But it is another example of nationalist propaganda if you actually fool yourself into believing that "bloodless victories" and "minimal casualties" stuff. This was very long ago, and we don't have reliable sources for many of the Achaemenid conquests. Some of the remains are documents like the Cyrus cylinder - written by the conqueror himself and certain to idolize him!
From your statements it shows how you are boasting ,my sources of reference are Xenophon and Plutarch (you know them , right ?) which all mentioned how tolerant and well-disposed he was.Minimal casualties stuffs are their writings not only Greek historians but even in bible and in recordings of Mesopotamians as tolerant and well-disposed amazingly even some of them looked at him as a saviour.So please I sincerely advice you read some persian history before replying.
However, the wars we do know about tell us that the Achaemenids were as violent as any conqueror. Greece was invaded twice by massive armies, Athens was burnt to a cinder; in Asia the Greek city of Miletos to name but one had most of its inhabitants enslaved; Egypt rose several times in bitter wars with the Persian conquerors, and the Scythians defended their independence in a terribly bloody conflict.
Non of them happened in Cyrus II's era mr historian and I never said that Achaemenids were tolerant as Cyrus II.About Scythians because they were a barbarian nation and attacked regularly northern cities of the empire massacaring people in a hack-and-slash style.(Even greeks were in a constant threat from Scythians and had few wars with them did you know that ?).He even proposed to the Scythian queen to avoid bloodshed but she refused and ignited a bloody war.after Cyrus's death there is a story that the queen beheaded the Cyrus and made a golden bowl out of his head.
You are a nationalist, Amir85. You automatically describe times when Persians had military hegemony as some kind of golden age. And this is simply not acceptable in a dictionary.
its the a usual way to describe different era's of a dynasty , you can look at Byzantine Empire as an example.
4.About Seleucids ,as you may know By the time Seleucids were driven out of Iran or Persia especially after Antiochus III ,Seleucids were merely a living dead , an state of constant civil wars.Surrounding countries kept it as a barrier between themselves until Romans finished off the sinking state.So its golden era was mainly when it had Persia under its rule.Thats why Seleucids are in History of Iran chart.
Iran was never a central area for the Seleucids (they had very few mints there, for instance). Therefore a general article about the dynasty should not be centered around Iranian history, as my article was - since it was originally written in quite another context, as you well know. It is a good article - even if I say so myself - but it is misplaced there. Or rather: you misplaced it there!
Yes they had most of Persia for quite sometime in their golden era .Persia could considered to be their most important nation they ruled ,about mints there are reasons: Persia were in constant change of rulers and dynasties this has caused lack of artifacts from different dynasties.And also not to mention Persians never fully accepted seleucids.
And finally I have to admit I may have written some of the article in a unsuitable tone but I havent written out of ignorance.
So you have been writing in an unsuitable tone on purpose? Well at least you're honest!
I meant they are historically accurate and maybe in an unsuitable tone
Good luck and try to read and analize more of history of near east and persia from different sources to get a right insight to it. Amir85 18:27, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Last reply
This will be my final word on this subject.
3. "its the a usual way to describe different era's of a dynasty" No it's not. As for the reference to the Byzantine empire, you've misunderstood what I meant . There is indeed a headline called "Golden era" but that simply means the empire scored many successes during that period. Not that the rule was unusually just and everybody in the empire was happy.
Stories like the above about Cyrus and the Scythian queen are just that - stories - even if they reflect real events. And the Bible! Seriously - you certainly know the Bible is not an objective source!? That's why one should be careful before writing in a dictionary - one has to be able to see through propaganda and biased sources. Note that I am not at all saying that Cyrus was a unusually violent king. On the contrary he compares well with such rulers as Alexander and Trajan - brilliant, enlightened and tolerant kings, but whose actions caused much bloodshed and suffering, as virtually all conquerors have done.
4. I am personally a member of the "modern school" who believe that the Eastern domains were indeed more important to the Seleucids than is traditionally described, but your view is exaggerated and contradictory - if the Seleucids couldn't strike coins in Iran because of the "constant change of rulers and dynasties" then their grip of Iran was obviously not that strong! The Seleucids built/rebuilt lots of cities, but very few of them in Iran.
The accounts we have of the Seleucid army (Appian, Plutarch etc) mention Persian/Median soldiers in the Seleucid army, but they are usually a rather small fraction. Persis probably appointed its own governors after the revolt of Molon (c 222 BCE) and became a vassal-kingdom soon after. No, even if the Seleucids tried to rule Iran, their base was certainly in Syria/Babylonia and most of their wars in their "golden era" were with Egypt - my text says nothing about that and is therefore unsuitable. (The Seleucids/Parthian period is on of my stronger areas - I am writing a book about hellenism in the east which means that I have studied this period extensively.) Absurdly enough, the distant Afghanistan was a more important stronghold for hellenism than Iran.
I believe you have begun to see some of my points - if you rewrite the article we discussed in (1) that is indeed very fine - and I shall end the discussion here. Best regards --Sponsianus 17:04, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Heliokles overstrikes over Hermaeus
Hi Sponsianus. Yes, Bopearachchi writes about two known overstrikes by Heliokles II over coins of Hermaeus. The book where this is mentionned, "De l'Indus a l'Oxus", is a Museum Catalogue for a 2003 special exhibit in a Southern France museum (Musee de Lattes) ISBN 2951667922. I am afraid it would not be available in any other language than French... Best regards. PHG 13:57, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Indo-Greek Kingdom
Hi Sponsianus. I've put the Indo-Greek Kingdom on the Wikipedia:Featured article candidates pages. Thanks to put in your vote!PHG 14:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sponsianus. Thank you for your comments and your support for the FA! You are totally right that the chronology of the Indo-Greeks (especially the later ones) is not clearly established. After many frustrations, I simply formatted the article along one interpretation, which seemed to me the most complete, documented, recent, and consistent, that of 1991 Bopearachchi. It is clearly not perfect, but I doubt there is yet any better construction available at this point (I guess somebody will have to spend a lifetime on it!). It allows the chronology to have a structure at least, on which we can clearly improve as more research is being done. Best regards. PHG 09:17, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sponsianus. Thank you for the comments on the Bactrian coins of the Indo-Greek kings. In your opinion what would be the most up-to-date published work on the chronology on the Indo-Greek kings at this point? Would you know of a summary of all their overstrikes? Best regards. PHG 22:56, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sponsianus. I'm all for tweaking the chronology, as long as it is referenced (overstrikes especially), and we still maintain an intelligible structure (since the subject remains highly speculative, I guess a highly regarded published source like Bopearachchi remains ideal as a basic framework). I do not have easy access to the more recent discoveries on overstrikes though. I know that Bopearachchi published some corrections to his chronology around 1999, and I will try to find the reference. I think it would be great if we could reference known overstrikes for each kings (something I've started to do in places). Don't forget to tell me when your book is out, and to give me the ISBN! Best regards. PHG 22:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sponsianus. Thanks for the comments. Yes, the nomination is going fine, and the article is very close to becoming FA now. For Heliokles I vs Heliokles II, no revert intended (I'm not so sure about which part you mention). Please modify where you see fit. Best regards. PHG 13:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Indo-Greek Kingdom FA
Indo-Greek Kingdom is now a Featured article. Thanks for the great support! PHG 22:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Zenob
All I could find for the moment. http://menq.am/history/chap1_part01.htm --Eupator 15:41, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. It wouldn't cite him as a source.--Eupator 19:40, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Houghton 1235 Timarchus.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Houghton 1235 Timarchus.jpg. However, the image may soon be deleted unless we can determine the copyright holder and copyright status. The Wikimedia Foundation is very careful about the images included in Wikipedia because of copyright law (see Wikipedia's Copyright policy).
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[edit] Image Tagging Image:Heliokles not the II.jpg
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Thanks for uploading Image:Heliokles not the II.jpg. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then you need to argue that we have the right to use the media on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then you should also specify where you found it, i.e., in most cases link to the website where you got it, and the terms of use for content from that page.
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[edit] Indo-Greek kings
Hi Sponsianus. Welcome back! and thanks for your message. It seems you have a lot of new information on the sequence of the kings, overstrikes, and their hoards. I think it would be great if we could incorporate such information in the bios of each of the kings, whereby suppositions can be made on their dates and order. I wish one day we can have a secure genealogy of Indo-Greek kings! Best regards PHG 11:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
