User talk:Spireguy

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[edit] Welcome

Hello, Spireguy, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. If you are stuck, and looking for help, please come to the Wikipedia Boot Camp, where experienced Wikipedians can answer any queries you have! Or, you can just type {{helpme}} on your user page, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome!.--Dakota ~ ° 03:42, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DYK

Did you know? has been updated. A fact from the article Pik Korzhenevskoi, which you recently created, has been featured in that section on the Main Page. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--Gurubrahma 14:03, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Baltoro Glacier/Concordia

Waqas---regarding the Baltoro Glacier article, here is what I wrote on that Talk page: I notice that the reference to the "Concordia Region" has been put back in. To my knowledge, Concordia only refers to the the point of confluence of the Baltoro and Godwin Austen Glaciers. (Sources: multiple maps of the region, climbing literature such as American Alpine Journal.) It is not the name of a region. That's why I changed the reference in the first place, and why I changed the Concordia, Pakistan article as well. So I would suggest reverting back to the version which describes Concordia just as the confluence, not a region. If there are definitive sources to the contrary, please comment; otherwise I'll revert or re-edit this eventually. I don't want to step on any toes, but I do want it to be correct. -- Spireguy 14:32, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing it out, I did not know it was the name of the confluence. I've been searching for material to expand the articles of mountains, valleys and glaciers in the Northern Areas, and although I've been very careful about what I write, I still made a mistake, I thought "Concordia" could be referred to as a "region". (I now see in the revision history that you mentioned it on 18 April, I didn't read it until you referred me to the issue). Please rephrase the sentence on top so that it mentions Concordia at the top. Waqas.usman 16:07, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fourteeners--spam revert

Replied on my talk page -- Mwanner | Talk 21:50, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unblock me!

Your user name or IP address has been blocked from editing. You were blocked by Johntex for the following reason (see our blocking policy): "Vandalism" Your IP address is 207.225.62.126.

Hello Spireguy, I just received your e-mail and I am about to review the circumstances related to your block. Please wait a bit. Johntex\^talk 19:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

It looks like you share an IP address with one or more vandals. I have removed the block - which was set to expire soon anyways. I don't know of any fool-proof way to prevent this from happening in the future. To my knowledge, you did the best thing you could do by posting the {{unblock}} template here, and for including your IP. That made the investigation very easy for me. Sorry about the problem - happy editing! Johntex\^talk 19:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully it won't happen often. Looking at the talk page for your IP address, there are some prior warnings, but not a huge set of them compared to some anonymous IP's. It could be much worse. Also, administrators know about the general issue relating to shared IP's, so we tend to keep IP blocks down to short time increments if possible - long enough for the vandal to get bored and leave the computer. If problems do persist, we could add a note there listing the contributing editors who use that IP address. Personally, even though some people think it is some sort of a sacred issue that we have to allow anonymous IP's to edit, I am in favor of a 100% log-in policy. It is just not that hard to create a username. There is a policy discussion underway at Wikipedia talk:Restrictions on Anonymous Editing from Shared IPs. Johntex\^talk 20:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hey Spireguy!

Is that David Metzger by any chance? Spireguy tag sounds familiar; this is Mike C formerly of bivouac.com; saw your comment about prominence in the Boundary Ranges and figured it must/might be one of youse guys.Skookum1 21:12, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Metzger->Metzler. Sorry. It's been a while, and I've got permanently fuzzy grey cells. Gave up working with bivouac when RobinT started revamping the organizational system underneath me without telling me, then expecting me to catch up and do even more work (prominence, infrastructre, edits, various ongoing policy bumpf docs that no one pays attention to) and then finally had the last straw when he started wantonly throwing around made-up names on the thousands of unnamed peaks I'd plotted; what value I had seen in the project got thrown out with the bathwater, as I'd spent 3-4 years working day and night only to be told my opinions didn't matter and the site administrator was boss; so I quit. His reorganization of the prominence region system I established - a reorganization done not to make things more scientific, but to justify the inadequacies of his database's many calculatory issues, and his own seat-of-the-pants definitions of what was and was not important in prominence (mind you, I was the one doing all the actual plotting, calculating and studying....); Wiki of course is consensual which is how I wound up here; and I'd started out as a historical geographer at Bivouac in the first place......Skookum1 22:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RE: Picture/name for Passu Sar

Waqas--thanks for creating the Passu Sar page and finding the nice picture. However, as I noted at Talk:Passu Sar, it's really a picture of the nearby peak Shispare (with Ultar Sar in the foreground). I'd like to move it to the Shispare page (which needs a picture anyway) and recaption it, but if I do that I would also like to tell the originator of the picture that I have done that. I thought you might prefer to tell him, since you contacted him already. Or I can do it, it's no problem---I just didn't want to step on any toes. Let me know.

Also, most references I have for the peak use only one "s", i.e. "Pasu Sar". These references are various reasonably authoritative maps, plus climbing literature such as the American Alpine Journal. If you have a better source that gives "Passu", let me know; otherwise it might be best to switch it back to "Pasu". -- Spireguy 21:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Spireguy, this message was burried under the load of other messages and went unnoticed until today. Thank you for the correction. Have you notified the originator of the picture?

As for the spellings Pasu vs Passu, I have always seen it spelled as Passu by the locals (although I don't claim that most locals use this version of the spellings, because I didn't research it). If you compare Google search results, Google Search Pasu gives no relavent result in top 9, and the 10th is also in some other language, which mentions "Khunjerab Pass" as "Khunjerev Pasu", whereas Google Search Passu gives several relavent results on top. Waqas.usman 22:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Waqas---thanks for moving the picture. I added a more explicit caption. -- Spireguy 16:05, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the caption! I'm adding the pic to Ultar page as well (because it doesn't have a pic yet). Waqas.usman 06:22, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ladyfinger Peak

Thank you for expanding the article and adding the pic. I did not know that the peak is the same as Bublimotin or Bublimuting. Is the Hunza peak same as the Ultar peak? A suggestion about adding images, whenever you add a pic, please put it under some related category so that others can find it and use it. Sometimes it's hard to find a related category, but you should put it in at least some category that might even be undirectly related. (I've put the image under Mountains of Pakistan and Karakoram). Waqas.usman 12:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, about "disputed" location, since the articles on the Indian-controlled Kashmir mention their location as "India" rather than "Disputed: India/Pakistan", I think it's fair to mention these mountains as part of "Pakistan" rather than "Disputed: Pakistan/India". Waqas.usman 12:24, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the category tip. Hunza Peak is a rather minor peak on the SW ridge of the Bojohagur Duanasir/Ultar massif, definitely not the same as Ultar itself. Regarding location, I haven't been sure when to mention the disputed status and when not to. Lately I've only been putting it in for peaks very near the line of control. It would be nice to have a consistent way to do this that recognizes the de facto situation but also mentions the dispute, since that would be (I think) the most NPOV way to do it. -- Spireguy 15:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Because the Indian users outnumber Pakistani users, you'll hardly find a mention of "disputed" on articles related to India-controlled Kashmir, and you'll find it mentioned on several articles related to Pakistani Kashmir and Northern Areas, especially on the important peaks etc. When I tried to add a conspicuous "disputed" note to Srinagar etc, my changes were soon reverted back. For NPOV, I'd say that "dispute" shouldn't be conspicuously mentioned on any important articles of Pakistani-administered Kashmir and Northern Areas. Otherwise, if someone feels it must be mentioned, then it must be mentioned on the Indian Kashmir articles as well, in the same way, in an NPOV tone (the articles created by Indians have a strong Indian bias, but Indian users far outnumber Pakistani users). Waqas.usman 15:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I see your point, that it is frustrating to have the Indian articles not mention the dispute and the Pakistan articles mention it, since that seems to contribute to an overall POV. Ideally there should be a consensus on a consistent description of the whole issue, but I guess that's unlikely to happen. It's not a big deal to me. -- Spireguy 20:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

So, the NPOV would be not to mention the dispute on Pakistani pages :) Waqas.usman 21:30, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please review these pages

I've recently created these new pages (mainly from other wiki pages, your texts), please review them for any mistakes, and expand them if you have more info:

Waqas.usman 21:32, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I moved your BJ II page to Bojohaghur Duanasir since BJ II is actually another name for Ultar. (The I and II got switched, presumably because an earlier survey mistakenly thought BJ I was higher.) See Talk:Bojahagur Duanasir II and Talk:Bojohaghur Duanasir.

Didn't get a chance to look at Hunza Peak yet, but I will. -- Spireguy 22:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction. Waqas.usman 23:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can you identify these peaks?

Please take a look at these unidentified peaks at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Unidentified_Karakoram_peaks. If you recognize any of these, please update their description and category and notify me. Thanks! Waqas.usman 23:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I was able to identify some of the peaks, take a look. I might be able to figure out some of the remaining. -- Spireguy 04:02, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, I had been busy for the last few days and didn't wiki much. I'll take a look at them. I've sent a link to Atif Gul (the photographer, who's a personal friend of mine, I actually took a lot of photos from him in bulk, without any description) but he's been busy as well these days. Waqas.usman 21:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is Bojohagur Duanasir = Hunza Peak?

Although I know little French, it's pretty obvious from the title what the guy says: Bojohagur Duanasir (Peak 34/Hunza Peak) -7329m Bojohagur Daunasir

I think many pages refer to Hunza Peak as the 6270m peak, not 7329m, so I guess the guy is wrong. Waqas.usman 01:30, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't say definitively that no one refers to Bojohagur Duanasir as Hunza Peak, but the Jerzy Wala map (which is quite detailed and carefully made) clearly labels only the 6270m as Hunza Peak. The picture on the Blank on the Map site is of Bublimotin and Hunza Peak only, not of Bojo itself. That site is pretty good in general, and has nice pictures, but I have not found it to be 100% accurate. -- Spireguy 01:43, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the above and for fixing the table, I was going too and fro between Districts of Northern Areas and the Google Earth detailed placemarks of Northern Pakistan that I finally uploaded a little while ago. Waqas.usman 06:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mountains

I appreciate your additions to the mountain articles, especially those in Glacier National Park (US). Many people I have met don't seem to understand that the height of a mountain may appear much higher than it really is if the lay of the surrounding land is lower in altitude...such is the condition in Glacier, where the tallest peaks are 4 thousand feet lower than in Colorado....but you already know that of course. Keep up the good work.--MONGO 04:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox: remember the photo!

Hi, Spireguy. Saw your edit at Mount Stuart --- remember that mountain infoboxes can have photos and captions: please preserve them when you use the new template. Thanks! -- hike395 12:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject tags

Sure—and I hope you don't mind my doing the same for Template:Mountain on new mountain articles I make. (Well, there's only been one so far, but there could be more)

Incidentally, sorry about spamming the living hell out of your watchlist and/or recent-changes list with the tagging. Trust me, it wasn't any more fun making those entries than it is to have to plow through them. —Zero Gravitas 04:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Chinook Jargon placenames

Hi...not that you'd know when a mountain/pass name is Chinook or not, but I'm hoping you can help me remember the name of a couple of minor peaks in the North Cascades area; in normal Chinook they'd be "ikt"/"ixt" and "mokst"/"moxt" but I can't find them under those names; should be something similar; they mean "one" and "two". I remember this being the subject of discussion somewhere, either in emails or in the prominence list, but I have no idea what to search under. Someone in WA was familiar with them....in the long run my Chinook toponymy is only just started, but it's already pretty huge; it's the obscure words, and odd/eccentric spellings and adaptations that are going to be hard to pin down.Skookum1 23:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mox Peaks

Found it! Er, found one of 'em. I remember from someone's correspondence (in the prominence list) that there's a "one" peak ("Mox" being "two") and while there's two spires, the gist of the correspondence was that something around there was the "one", perhaps the lower of the two; or the name did referr to the double spire; but I don't know the history/provenance of North Cascades names. Thoughts?Skookum1 02:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I thought you might be thinking of Mox Peaks. Beckey calls them the "Twin Spires"; he says a Boundary Survey party called them the Sawtooth Mountains, and says: "Mountaineers in the 1930s and 1940s applied the name Twin Spires, but the Forest Service applied the name Mox Peaks to their subsequent maps. The whimsy of this appellation is not clear to those who know the area." I am really not sure what he means by that last sentence. It seems reasonable to me that the Forest Service thought that a Chinook version of "Twin", or "Two", would be a good name. Don't know if there was an original indigenous name of any kind, "Mox" or otherwise.

As to "ixt", is that related to the "ish" ending of river names like "Skykomish"? Otherwise it doesn't ring a bell.

see below about Skokomish (next section). Up our way the '-mish' ending is "wind", as at Squamish (which is only an approximation of the unpronounceable tangle that is their name for themselves, and whatever else they they use to call their language). Ixt or iht means "one", or alone (esp as kopet ixt - kopet also meaning "stop" or possibly something like "until now"), sometimes seen on the end of terms like klimminawhit ("liar", from "smooth one").

BTW Mox Peak East is a good one by spire measure; it has a dramatic 1500 foot east wall. -- Spireguy 03:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

This is relevant---I just added it to the North Cascades page: Beckey notes that "Many names were derived from Chinook jargon, mostly applied by the Forest Service from 1910 to 1940; this dialect is incongruous here since it was a coastal Indian trade language." (Beckey 1996:141) That probably explains his cryptic comment about Mox, i.e. that it was the wrong language to use for a peak remote from the coast. -- Spireguy 03:23, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

and sorry, one last bit: what I meant here was that Beckey thought that the CJ was only a coastal trade language, and that it was also only used as a trade language; it was much more than that, as my comments about Forest Service guys probably knowing it (as anyone in the backwoods anywhere between Spokane and Prince Rupert did in those days....)Skookum1 01:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Beckey: Sorry, not familiar with that source/cite. Jargon was nonetheless widespread, and also perfectly legitimate for use by non-natives and in non-native contexts of territory; Beckey sounds to be citing a linguistics prejudice about where a language "belongs", and who it "belongs" to. White people learned and used the Jargon, for whatever sometimes trival or, in the native context, superfluous reasons. My own view is that white usage is as legitimate as non-native usage; it was a shared language, and if the Forest Service guys were "into it", that's their business. And also part of the Common Jargon Heritage, and not secondary to it as nativist chinookologists would have it.Skookum1 05:38, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry---Fred Beckey, author of the three volumes of the Cascade Alpine Guide, the invaluable and definitive source for climbing (and a lot of other) info on the Cascades. Well worth a look; see North Cascades for a more detailed cite.

Sounds something like Farley, who's the "definitive" for southern BC; along with John Baldwin's book on Ski-Touring the Coast Mountains (can't remember if that's the title or not...). Farley was the main source for much of bivouac.com before I got busy there; the area definitions are a mix of range hierarchies and prominence hierarchies - restructured by Robin into "cells", which I don't find are as revealing as to the shape of the country's geography - the shape of the country - as are maps showing the physical boundaries of the prominence "islands"; although in my system, unlike peaklist.org's maps, which are good on a regional basis, I went down to units as small as a New England State, or at least WV, TN etc in regions farther north. So Farley's area names, which were to me (ironically enough, given the mountaineering nature of the book) were from a lowland, access-based perspective. The one that really irked me of Farley's areas was "Nahatlatch-Stein", namely pretty well the Lillooet Ranges other than those access from the Lillooet River (the Seton Portage-Shalalth area is rarely used for access; in fact I think only natives have gone up by that route, although hard to say about the old days). Thing is the name Nahatlatch-Stein itself doesn't address the identity of the region, native-cultural or even since-Contact-cultural. Long digression possible here, but likewise with Farley's name Bivouac climbers were adamant in using the name "the Chehalis" for the Douglas Ranges, and weren't interested in the historical titles so much as practicality of access from the city. Likewise the South Chilcotin name, which I'll spare you a rant on, but which has gotten used to the point where the Bridge River Country, where the park is largely located and most easily accessed by, has come to be thought of by outdoors-Lower Mainlanders as being in the Chilcotin - which it's NOT (other than its northern and western extremities). And so on; in terms of the "Nahatlatch-Stein", the Stein is well-known because of the park campaign (hithertowhich it had been completely unknown, which is why it was still wild...and the Nahatlatch, which has a string of lakes and campgrounds which have grown semi-popular since the timber butchery of the area ended (for the most part) and the roads because safe/open to drive (never safe if it's a radio-controlled road in an active extraction area). But Farley had Lillooet in the "Nahatlatch Stein", and the southern Cayoosh; the Cayoosh being a region including the basin of Duffey Lake-Cayoosh Creek as well as the Cayoosh Range proper. But because the Joffre-Matier area is so well-known, the Farley system cuts it off as a separate region from the adjoining Cayoosh Range, and isolates it also from the general definition of the Stein basin; sigh. Obviously near and dear to me but largely irrelevant in what people decide to use; the "South Chilcotin" problem is compounded by one of the guide-outfitting parties in the Bridge River Valley using the name Chilcotin Holidays; and their site doesn't really mention any of them other tourism/recreation areas, not even Gold Bridge, Gun Lake, and Bralorne (which along with the Tyax-Gun Creek area where Chilcotin Holidays and the Tyax Lodge are, constitute the life and history of the Bridge River Country (which includes the Bendor, Shulaps, Yalakom/Camelsfoot, Seton-Shalalth, and touches on D'Arcy-Anderson Lake at McGillivray Pass (D'Arcy's not quite in the Bridge River-Lillooet Country, though definitely in the "old Lillooet Country", which included Douglas-Pemberton-D'Arcy (though Douglas is technically outside it...but part of it historically culturally...as is Lytton at the other end, and Clinton and Cache Creek-Ashcroft a bit also). The ties are old in that country, as through the Nlaka'pamux/Thompson territory from Boston Bar through Lytton to Spences Bridge, and that's the "Couteau Country" in the old days (also seen Kootomin on old maps, but that's still not a native name, but a French-native hybrid). Not so named because of its serrated landscape, but because of the war-craft of the Thompsons, which involved decapitation (the Chilcotins, on the other hand, were known for devouring hearts...); the Couteau or Knife Indians, known in old documents also as the Hakamaugh, a rough adaptation of Nlaka'pamux (if you knew how to pronounce Nlaka'pamux, that is).

So anyway....sigh...that's the direction I come at with attitudes as to what's an appropriate name or not; I'd prefer the opinion of the guys in the Forest Service, who were out on the land and had an interest in its history, than it what makes sense to a sense of what's "appropriate" as defined by who had the right to use such a word; I have far more problems with new names, and climber's names, than I do with a historical name that has its own reasons; so much history - the times past - is judged nowadays through a modernist perspective; it should not be; it is as it was. One local in Lillooet, who's someone else pissed at bivouac's (and other sites/guides) is even more pissed about Robins' nameing/renaming local summits than I am (he's got roots in the country from 1862 and beyond, rare in BC...) and says unnamed peaks should be left that way. Often enough, the natives who lived here for thousands of years didn't name summits; but places of importance instead; the concept of naming peaks is as much a foreign construct as is the grid-survey system and land alienation; but because Bivouac has (or had, as Robin may have truncated data, as he does too often...) more summmits mapped (thanks to me, to the tune of 25,000 peaks, four times that many including subpeaks), Robin has started throwing names all over the map, and deciding when something named a ridge needs another range, even if the summit is named a ridge, he's decided otherwise.....Skookum1 01:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Back to Farley/Becker: so while climbing guides can be referred to, they're no more contextual than anything else; I'd rather go with formal geographers (as I've done with the range defintions in the various Category:Mountain ranges of British Columbia I've stubbed and (some) mapped for Wikipedia; S. Holland's Landforms of British Columbia, 1976 BC Govt) or local lore (often in local, un-academic "kitchen histories") on what's where and so forth; geologists have a different spin from geographers, and ecological zones don't always match other kinds of zones (whichever, depending); and so on. There's a lot that could be in all these articles ultimately; the Cascades is a difficult one because it spans a large, diverse region, and there's only some commonalities, really, relative to any one chunk of the Cascades by itself; I think the North Cascades-Canadian Cascades article is, for example, such an area; and different from Chelan-Ellensburg-Yakima obviously, vs the Columbia and the Rainier-Adams-St Helens region; I wouldn't know where to begin with Oregon; the idea is that ultimately these pages could be a synthesis of geographic, geological, cultural, zoological/botanical and folklore/climbing history and more; in my view nearly anything in certain types of articles is only a stub; the additive nature of the environment, re information relevant to a subject - nearly any subject, seems bound to lead towards that over time...as a historical document, it's becoming the historical document; and completely unprecedented as a collective, consensual record of human knowledge and experience and what-have-you....including obscurities like mountain names and backcountry history....Skookum1

I don't think Beckey was claiming that non-native use of a Chinook word is always inappropriate, but rather that they removed an existing name ("Twin Spires") in favor of a name that probably couldn't have been the original local name of the peak (if it had one). -- Spireguy 22:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's likely to have been a Lushootseed or Skokomish one, or Skagit if that's where the Twin Spires/Mox Peaks are; and chances are a striking formation like that would have a name in nearby towns where it could be seen from, or thereabouts (can't see Bivouac's Javamaps for to see what towns are nearby; hard to bother with on Topozone). I see what you mean, though - if Twin Spires is more "there" historically, then of course it should be there; my Chinook list of anything that's gazetted, though; including artificially-conferred things like Street names and the occasional business (the Hiyu Hee-Hee Tavern on the Kitsap: "lotsa fun", "lotsa giggles").

[edit] Skokomish

About Skokomish see Skokomish (tribe); one interpretation has it that it's Twana or Lushootseed, the other than it's a local Chinook Jargon hybrid of skookum, which is of course CJ, and -mish, which is the Puget Sound Salishan ending for "people" (farther north it tends to be mxw and mcw around Vancouver and inland (Halkomelem, Squamish, Straits), and in Hunquminum (the VI version of Halkomelem). Anyway, I'd never come across the skookum-mish etymology for that before, and thought it was a hybrid/created word from the Skykomish and Snoqualmie Rivers, which when they merge are the Snohomish; thought it had something to do with that. Tribal tradition says otherwise - that skookum meaning "strong", was definitely intended; even if it's a pun on the Twana meaning ("fresh water") it still works in terms of local argot; and tradition blends in a lot of elements, or can, so it works both ways, as story and as origin.Skookum1 01:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ISBNs again

Hi--Exactly what is wrong with the ISBN 0-89886-238-8, which is the corrected entry I put on the Masherbrum page, which matches the LOC and Amazon, and which checks out (I cut and pasted into an auto-ISBN checker)? Thanks, Spireguy 22:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, your correction was correct, thanks for fixing it. Timing error on my part. Rich Farmbrough 22:28 25 August 2006 (GMT).

P.S. Congratulations on the first correct "challenge"! Rich Farmbrough 22:30 25 August 2006 (GMT).

And thanks for fixing those other ISBNs. Rich Farmbrough 22:31 25 August 2006 (GMT).

[edit] K2

I have got into an edit war with a Pakistani POV pusher which I am liable to lose to lose uder WP:3RR. Surely K2 is no more in Pakistan than it is in China. Please can you help. Thanks. Viewfinder 09:45, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I have found the 1963 border agreement between Pakistan and China however its language is not that much clear. Obviously according to it peak could belongs to one country as it define the border. You can find the agreement between Pakistan and China on here ., here and and here. Can you decode its language for me? I cannot spend more energy on it because I really have to work/study (non-wikipedia stuff). While trying to decode it please do not use Indian sites and writers because they are not neutral in this case. Thanking you in anticipation. --- ابراهيم 15:02, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I cannot get any of the above links to work. Some of them cause my browser (IE) to crash. Viewfinder 20:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The second and third links worked for me. The most relevant section is point (5) on page 4 of the second link, which says that the border passes "over the summit of the Chogri Peak (K2)." Nowhere is there any mention of a special provision for K2 being entirely or mainly controlled by Pakistan; it simply says that the border follows the main water divide, right over the summit, as one would expect. (The third link is basically the same info as the second; I assume that the first is as well.) This fits in with the climbing-oriented references I mentioned on Talk:K2, which make clear that the northern route to the summit of K2 is entirely in China and is administered by China. I'll copy most of this over to Talk:K2 as well. -- Spireguy 22:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Himalaya annotated image

Annotated Himalaya image

Hi Spireguy,

I noticed your comments regarding the annotated Himalaya image on Commons and uploaded a new version. Could you tell me if there are any other problems? One thing I am not quite sure about is Nuptse. Should it be more to the left?

I also tried to make the south col routed dotted to show that it is behind the ridge, but that did not look too good either. If you want I can email you the photoshop file, if you want to improve the image yourself. Just let me know. Janderk 12:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The image looks good now. I couldn't do the Photoshopping, and I don't think that you'd be able to put in the route where it is hidden, so I think what is on there now is good. About Nuptse, it has many summits of similar height; I think the main summit might be a tiny bit to the left of what you have now, but not enough that it is worth changing, imo. You arrow certainly points to some summit of Nuptse. -- Spireguy 03:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I made another small change and moved the Nuptse location slightly more to the left to try to point at Nuptse I. Janderk 22:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, looking at the Washburn map I see that Nuptse I is in the middle of the long high ridge, so your arrow is quite good now. Thanks again. -- Spireguy 02:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

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