Talk:Speech balloon

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is in the scope of WikiProject Comics, a collaborative effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to comics on Wikipedia. Get involved! Edit the article attached to this page or discuss it at the project talk page. Help with current tasks, or visit the notice board.
???	This article has no rating on the quality scale. Please rate the article and provide comments here.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's importance scale.

Contents 1 Order 2 Title 3 Callouts 4 Redirections 5 Tail Point 6 History 7 Text boxes 8 Marvel comics - characters speaking in other languages 9 Tail direction 10 Terminology again 11 Various points 12 uppercase/lowercase 13 Ellipsis 14 Mayan art 15 Fonts

[edit] Order

The use of multiple bubbles on one cell should be mentioned, when there is interaction between two characters. The order of reading them may be an important aspect to include. violet/riga (t) 00:25, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You mean as in Mad Magazine movie parodies, and similar? I agree.

Reading order is important, but not universal. Generally bubbles would be read left to right, top to bottom in western culture but even that is not consistant. Many odd shaped and oriented comic book panels can become convoluted even in the best of times.--RedKnight 23:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title

What is the origin of the phrase "communication bubble"? "Speech balloon" and "thought balloon" are the common terms in my experience--if this is a new coinage, I think we would do better to list this topic as "speech balloon." --BTfromLA 05:09, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I know it best as a "speech bubble" but there is also the "thought bubble". As both are forms of communication then this title seems sensible. violet/riga (t) 11:18, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But the way the page is written, it seems to be mainly about speech bubbles, only mentioning thought bubbles later on. I haven't phrased that particularly well but I think this would fit under the title of "speech bubble" more easily. --Thomas 15:31, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I strongly recommend that "communication bubble" be eliminated--it is not appropriate for an encyclopedia to make up new names for things! The question is not only what to rename it, but whether this needs to be a separate entry at all. It may be that this subject can better be discussed within the comics entry, as an expansion upon the discussion of the formal properties of comics. If it is kept as a separate topic, I propose "speech balloon", because it is the most standard form in writing about comics, although "word balloon" is common and variations with "bubble" are not unknown; all of those should be anticipated and redirected to "speech balloon". There is certainly no need for a seperate topic for "thought balloon"--it can be included here, or as I said above, this all can fit into comics.--BTfromLA 17:20, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

PS. If this is kept as a separate topic, we'll need to discuss the history of the speech balloon, which is rather inacurrately portrayed in the current draft--here's a start: http://bugpowder.com/andy/e.speechballoons.evolution.html

I have this bad habit of making up new words, but I swear I've stopped doing it deliberately. I did this because speech bubbles and thought bubbles are part of the same 'category', such as it is, but using the either of those for the article would leave the other out in the cold. But I admit that 'communication bubble' is hardly satisfactory; if you have a better name, by all means run with it. -Litefantastic 01:33, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for being so agreeable about my proposed change. As you see, I've switched it to "Speech balloon," but I think that ultimately it might make more sense to have one central page that describes the formal conventions of comics: balloons, frames, the gutter, etc. --BTfromLA 02:01, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The new title doesn't follow the rules of proper capitalization it should be "Speech balloon". Jeltz 15:59, 2004 Nov 21 (UTC)

Is there a page somewhere that describes the capitalization conventions for Wikipedia entry titles? If the title is treated as the title of an article (this was my assumption), then "Speech Balloon" is correct. Otherwise, you're right, "balloon" would be lowercase. Please verify what the standard is--if the current version is wrong (it may well be), by all means, correct it.--BTfromLA 16:20, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I found Wikipedia:style, and you are correct. I'll make the change.--BTfromLA 16:46, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC) I can't seem to migrate the contents from Speech Balloon to Speech balloon, either with "move" or via cut-and-paste. I've only succeeded in gumming up the forwarding links. Can someone who understands the Wiki setup better than I do please step in and facilitate this change? Thanks. --BTfromLA 16:59, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I guess that what I just did is solving the technical matter. Please let me know if you need further help. olivier 18:28, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks!--BTfromLA 19:23, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for solving this. And sorry BTfromLA for forgetting to link to the capitalisation policy. Jeltz 22:26, 2004 Nov 21 (UTC)

I added a few more bubbles, maybe we should be more uniform with the bubble/balloon usage within this article.

I think "word balloon" should be the title of this article, not only do I find it to be the most commonly used, but that "word" easily includes "speech" and "thought" balloons as definitional subsets. Doesn't having the article be called "speech balloon" make "thought balloon" seem more like an adjunct rather than a subset? Taxonomy! Whee! (I prefer balloons over bubbles, as well.) Rand 19:49, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Callouts

Possible term to include in the article....have you ever seen this term used?

If you go into a Microsoft application such as Word and look on the Drawing toolbar under Autoshapes, there is a category of shapes named Callouts. What we are calling a thought bubble, Word calls a cloud callout.

I couldn't find any listings for this term in One Look (seaches many dictionaries simultaneously). http://www.onelook.com/ ike9898 15:39, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

• I've seen this term in Excel as well, but that's it. I think they made it up. Microsoft is big enough that it can do what it wants. -Litefantastic 15:51, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Redirections

Maybe we need to make some more redirections, both for singular and plural, speech/word/(talk) bubble/balloon/s etc...

[edit] Tail Point

I think I created the word "Tail Point" for this page... Is there a more official, more commonly used, less ambiguous term that could be used instead. I am not too pleased by the way it looks... =S

As far as I know, they are called "tails" Rand 19:27, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] History

Actually I am not sure about if the examples of balloon-less american adventure strips I've given are general for adventure comics or not. In the case of Tarzan, at least, I guess it's because it is a literary adaptation. Most of these were created in the late 30's, when I guess the "premises and syntax" of the comics medium were already quite mature...

AFAIK, calling Yellow Kid "the world's first reoccurring comic strip" is disputed, it was a pioneering example of the medium, but mostly it was a cartoon. Also, the british comic, or (often, anyway) illustrated story "Ally Sloper" featured a reoccurring main character several decades earlier.

This example is also displayed in many Classics Illustrated issues which are generally adaptations of classic pieces of literature such as Hamlet, Invanhoe, etc. I am not sure as to why they are used.--RedKnight 23:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Text boxes

As far as I am aware these are known as captions. Ok to change? Rand 19:37, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Rand, DO NOT CHANGE! I REPEAT: DO NOT CHANGE!!!

[edit] Marvel comics - characters speaking in other languages

I seem to remember that Marvel comics had a way of indicating that a character was speaking in a language other than English. Maybe there were brackets around the text of something like that. Anyone know what I'm talking about? ike9898 14:16, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

• <Yes. They used these things.> - <Litefantastic 16:52, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)>

I think it was copied by a lot of other cartoonists after that, because it was quite visual and easy to interpret. Who invented it, by the way? When was it first to be seen? I think I read it in Marvel comics from the 80's/90's...

I don't know. I remember them being used on the Isralis in Y: The Last Man -Litefantastic 23:49, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I though maybe you would see them in Fantastic Four comics when those green alien guys talker (Kree? Krull? I can't remember their name). Maybe check the first appearance of those guys; that might be as early as the late 60's. ike9898 00:41, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

• The Asterix comics, OTOH, used different fonts for different languages. Goth was indicated by a "black letter" font. Greek had a more angular font than normal. Norse used Nørdic åccents on the characters. Egyptian was in faux hieroglyphics. The Gauls could understand Greek but not the other languages. — JIP | Talk 14:57, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Maybe this could be added to the section of different letterings, with Walt Kelly etc. I remember this clearly, now.

[edit] Tail direction

The second option, which is currently only used in manga, has the tail pointing into the bubble, instead of out. (This tail is still pointing towards the speaker.)

Here's the example illustration, the middle drawing being the manga style:

I don't read manga, so I don't know the conventions. But this illustration appears to mean that the speaker is off the right side of the frame. If that's so, then isn't the tail pointing away from the speaker? (After all, it is pointing into the bubble.) I think some rewording is necessary by someone who is familiar with manga. —Bkell 18:58, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

No, the speaker is on the left side of the balloon. I think it's a weird usage, though, and I don'treally understand the point of it...

Okay, well, if the speaker is to the left, perhaps the image should be edited. The other two speech bubbles indicate speakers to the right of the frame. —Bkell 02:39, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Maybe there could be added some generic cartoon faces to the image: ( '_' )

As far as I've seen, the inwards tail is actually used when an outwards tail would obstruct other balloons or art, and only rarely for off-panel speekers. It's common when a character on the far edge of a wide panel has a balloon on the other end. A more regular convention, at least in the manga I've read, for off-panel is an initial or sketch of a face to indicate who's talking, and no tail.

The "manga bubble" is not a convention in manga. I read a lot of manga and I have seen a lot of different kinds of bubbles, but I have never seen this one. I suspect that it is only used by a certain artist, or maybe even a few artists, but not a convention used in manga as a whole. In any case, it should not be discussed as a "manga bubble" as opposed to "western bubbles", since the "western bubbles" are the most common kind in both western comics and manga. However, it might be interesting to note that manga often use split tails pointing towards the speaker, something which I don't think I have seen in Western comics.

[edit] Terminology again

There still seems to exist some confusion about which word to use (bubble, balloon etc), throughout the article, different words are used in the main title and in different sections of the article. Which word should be agreed on? Which word does the pros, (such as Scott McCloud and Will Eisner use?

[edit] Various points

1.Gives too much weight to a style of speech balloon which is seemingly exclusively used in a single GN (certainly, if all the speech in the comic in question is like that, that's true, but not noteworthy. It's been used for donkey's years elsewhere to signify someone speaking from off-panel).

Maybe it could be added "for instance, used in Persepolis"81.232.72.148 23:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

2.Speaking of which, the manga balloon is backwards in the picture.

Yes...81.232.72.148 23:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

3.Caption boxes "are usually connected to the edge of the panel"? Only artist I've ever seen that happen with is Walt Simonson's art, where he prefers to alter the edge of the panel shape, especially when working with John Workman, Jr.. The first box in a panel is usually placed near the corner of the panel, and that's about as close as I can get to that.

Ehhh, the corner is part of the edge. I'd say upper right corner/edge is fairly common...81.232.72.148 23:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

4.Oh, and thought balloons have become very rare in US comics in recent years, with thoughts (where used) now only used as first-person narrative caption boxes.

For many more "serious" comics, yeah, but it is still one of the major traditionally used ballons, still in funnies if nothing else, your comment could be added, though...81.232.72.148 23:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

5."In a font similar to Comic Sans" - Kill It. I've never seen a single US or UK professional comic that uses any font even vaguely resembling CS, with fonts resembling specific hand letterers having become "standard" of late in US comics, apart from a few mixed-case experiments. 6.In general, the article seems to ignore the post-computer lettering explosion of the use of shapes, fonts and colours in speech balloons in US comics at least - and, indeed, the fact that since DC Comics completely ended the use of hand lettering a year or two back, with only a very few non-DCU fringe books excepted (the only one that leaps to mind offhand is Elric: The Making of a Sorceror), you'd stuggle to find hand-lettered comics in America any more. The article completely ignores this.

Holds true for the major publishers. Maybe we could make something out of this, though. This page doesn't mention much about lettering. As a sidenote, I don't like how the modern US comics are using Computer Fonts for sound effects, don't think it has the same soul as the sound effects integrated into the art from the age before computers.81.232.72.148 23:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

7.No references. 8.Neutrality - the whole thing in general seems skewed towards "independent" US comics, with manga and superhero comics only an afterthought, and UK comics not mentioned at all. - SoM 11:00, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

"Independent US comics"? I only found a brief comment about Cerebus, although many other examples neither fit among the Superhero, nor the Manga category, they are still interesting as examples on how the ballons have been used differently. What does make British comics so particularly interesting in an international medium?81.232.72.148 23:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Sign your posts with four tildes. I've noticed that we share an interest in both history and comics. In answer to your question what does make British comics so particularly interesting: Neil Gaiman and Allan Moore. Rick Norwood 16:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

OK. Yeah, they're good, at least what I have read, but I don't think they have done much notable experiments with word balloons... =S 81.232.72.148 23:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Check out the word balloons in Sandman. Rick Norwood 01:07, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, of course. Delirium's colorful wondering, wandering and that raven's(?) black balloons, sure, I forgot them, but they're worth noting... 81.232.72.148 14:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] uppercase/lowercase

In the Fonts section it says that only a few comics use upper and lowercase fonts, but hasn't Marvel Comics used these for all its books in the recent years? --Fritz Saalfeld (Talk) 22:35, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

They did for a while, supposedly an edict by former Marvel boss Bill Jemas to make the comics seem more sophisticated, but have since gone back to all caps on baloons and captions, for the ease of readability. --oknazevad 23:07, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Not quite all. Runaways and the Ultimate books are still mixed-case. - SoM 23:24, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and I have ***NEVER*** seen a professional comic lettered with a font even vaguely resembling Comic Sans, as I said above. WTH put that back in? - SoM 19:42, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with SoM. Either comics are lettered by hand or, when lettered using computer fonts, the font chosen mimics traditional hand lettering. I would therefore propose to replace the sentence: "Either way...Comic Sans" by: "In most cases, computer fonts used to letter comics are chosen to resemble traditional hand lettering". There is a simple technical reason why lower case fonts are not used in comics: this fonts have letters with 'descents' (i.e. the part of the letter below the baseline like p, q, g...) that can collide with the 'ascents' (i.e. the part of the letter above the baseline like k, h, t). Using only capital letters avoids descents, avoids collisions and saves space by reducing the line height. Lower cases are more often used in older comics, in particular in comics from the 'belgian school' such as Tintin (not only in the English translation), Black and Mortimer and others. It is rarely now rarely used for the practical reasons given above. If the group agrees I can propose an edit of the article.--Exether 23:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ellipsis

The page seems to imply that the ellipsis originated in manga, which seems to be somewhat of a half-truth. At least I've seen it used a lot in old comics for musings without a clear stop, etc... I don't know if it means that the symbol has come to mean speechlessness in general, but even so, I doubt that it is an entirely Japanese innovation, even if the popularity of manga has caused it to be widespread in this particular fashion. Here's some other guy who has wondered about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ellipsis#Ellipsis_in_Japanese. 惑乱 分からん 18:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mayan art

I don't know this information added about Mayan art. Given the sources Waffle Man has given, I'd say that it looks more like a children's picture book than a character with a speech balloon. I can't see any connection between the speaker and the text, for instance, which I think is a basic criterion for a speech balloon. I won't remove it for now, but I leave it up for discussion here... 惑乱 分からん 11:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fonts

I also think that the idea that Comic Sans is an industry-standard is ridiculous and should be taken off the page ASAP. At this site[1] there are several freeware fonts that resemble the industry standards. The problem is, I don't know what their commercial or "real" families/names are. For instance:

• Anime Ace / Digital Strip style fonts are typically used in manga translations.
• Komica Text / Mighty Zeo is similar to many mixed-case modern computer-lettered mainstream books out now, particularly Marvel's.
• For mainstream all-uppercase fonts, Alter Ego[2] (commercial) is probably among the closest I've seen to standard.

Sample images could probably easily be found/created to demonstrate, but I'm not really sure how to proceed here. Suggestions? Any professionals know the the official font families? --SevereTireDamage 10:18, 3 June 2006 (UTC)