Talk:Spanish language

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Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.

Previous discussions:

1 Incorrection | 2 Loss of vosotros/vuestro in parts of South America? | 3 IPA and SAMPA usage and inconsistencies | 4 History | 5 Major changes in the 19th century? | 6 Semivowel or not? | 7 También and compadre have /n/ (arch)phoneme | 8 Inverted question marks | 9 Spanish syntax | 10 Castilian or Spanish? The situation in Spain | 11 Separate Grammar Page | 12 one of the oldest languages in the world | 13 Sound bites | 14 Oh dear | 15 Help with article | 16 MadriD | 17 Misspellings | 18 Adjectives | 19 Second person, third person, questions | 20 Castellano and Español | 21 digraphs as letters | 22 Countries that say castellano | 23 POV addition by anon | 24 Brazil | 25 Spanish word list | 26 Languages of... | 27 Northern Morocco
1 Number of speakers | 2 All of Latin America is a Spanish region??? No! | 3 second most popular language? | 4 States listing in the Infobox | 5 USA or not USA | 6 /v/ and /b/ | 7 Cervantes | 8 Subdialect | 9 Use of "Hispanophone" | 10 Proposal to shrink language box | 11 Spanish translation
1 Why Peru and not USA? | 2 Belize | 3 Bad faith
1 French language | 2 Paraguay, etc | 3 Spanish in U.S. | 4 ¿Habla usted inglés? | 5 Loanwords Section | 6 The box again | 7 Pre-modern Spanish orthography | 8 Spanish as the native language of Spain in Europe | 9 Alphabet | 10 Castilian Spanish | 11 Influence of other languages on Castillian and other Spanish dialects?
1 The misleading colour of Brazil | 2 USA and the Spanish language | 3 Spanish, like English, is not an official language of the USA, but it is a Spanish speaking country. | 4 Where Spanish is spoken | 5 Equatorial Guinea should be dark green | 6 /?/ and /s/ | 7 As spoken in.... (don't mention the States!) | 8 Castellano vs. Español | 9 Spoken in Israel too

Please add new threads at the bottom of this page

Contents


[edit] Spanish is not spoken on all continents

Where did you get this information from? It is very misleading.

The continents where it is not spoken are Australia (although there are trivial pockets of Spanish-speaking expatriates) and Antarctica (trivial since it's a mostly deserted continent with no countries, although there are teams of Spanish-speaking scientists working there). It is spoken in the other 5 continents: Europe (Spain), Africa (Equatorial Guinea, Western Sahara, the Canary islands), North America (Mexico, U.S., Cuba, Panama, etc.), South America (in all countries except Brazil and the Guyanas) and Asia (thousands of speakers remain in the Philippines and around 10% of the Sephardim in Israel speak Judæo-Spanish). Uaxuctum 19:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy and references

This article has some problems. The claims in the introduction are notably problematic as they do not include any references. It seems clear that various studies have come up with different statistics, so its good to mention that, but if you're going to state any particular number, at least drop a reference. And "Some assert" are coward words.

Anyways, I'd like to propose fixing up the intro by including some references and replace the "second most important language" bit with a more general "is a very important language" Can someone can cite a reference that actually says "second most important language"? Even if someone can come up with a reference, it seems that something like ranking the importance of a language is probably inherently POV and somewhat meaningless.

Also, I think coloring New Mexico dark green is incorrect. According to Spanish in the United States, Spanish is not the most widely spoken language there.

I'll try to start some research tomorrow. If you got any good references, please list them here! Ehlkej 05:57, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Just as a quick answer to your question, it would appear that dark green is the coloration chosen for places that give the language some official status for goverment purposes. I am not completly certain but New Mexico may be be colored in this manner because it has made spanish a co-official language. As I said I am not certain, but will do some research on the matter. A.E.Newman 4 May 06

[edit] Soft or hard?

I've just reverted a change in the part of the article describing the sounds of written g. It turns out that in English, "hard g" means g as in get (/g/) while "soft g" means g as in gin (/dʒ/). In Spanish, most people don't use this terminology but would probably consider the fricative g as in gema (/x/) "hard", in the sense of "harsh". What do we do? I'd prefer eradicating the common but confusing "hard/soft" distinction and speak properly of fricative and plosive sounds. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 15:19, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this idea. I was just about to change 'hard' to 'soft' (without having checked the page's history, I admit) when I realized they might not mean, in english or in linguistics, what my spanish intuition told me. --Rodrigo Gallardo

The soft g is only /x/ in Spain. In the rest of the world it's an /h/.Cameron Nedland 01:38, 12 April 2006 (UTC) In Spain the soft g (or hard, again depending on POV) is more commonly [χ].

[edit] Classification and related laguages

The article seems to put French and Italian at the same level in terms of similarities with Spanish and that is a big mistake. In fact, Italian is so close to Spanish or vice versa that speakers of both languages can communicate relatively well with a little of good will, which is not the case with French. Actually, Spanish is closer to Portuguese in terms of vocabulary and grammar, but much closer to Italian in terms of pronunciation. So, I suggest a change to that.

Several statements in this section are inaccurate and should be edited out. For example, there is no statistical evidence to support the claim that "the number of bilingual speakers (of Portuguese and Spanish) in Brazil (...) has greatly risen". An educated Brazilian is probably capable of understanding Spanish (due to its similarities with Portuguese), but it is actually very rare to find Brazilians who can speak Spanish. Besides, the alleged explanation in the article for this hypothetical increase in bilingualism in Brazil is also unconvincing: although nearly every nation bordering Brazil is Spanish-speaking, most Brazilians actually live very far away from border areas and, therefore, have little or no contact with their Spanish-speaking neighbors on a regular basis. The only major exception I can think of are the southernmost Brazilian states bordering Argentina and Uruguay, where local Brazilian Portuguese dialects show a certain degree of Spanish influence in pronunciation and vocabulary. Even in that latter case though, very few speakers could be classified as "bilingual". 161.24.19.82 17:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
It appears that the section on "related languages" has been turned instead on a fairly extensive description of the lexical differences between Spanish and Portuguese. I am quite sure English-language speakers who are potential readers of this article are fully aware of the fact that Spanish and Portuguese are two separate standard languages. In other words, they don't have to be reminded or convinced of that by countless examples that are totally out of place in an article that was supposed to be about the Spanish language, not about Portuguese. Mbruno 21:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tutorials

It's very tiring to set apart spam from borderline spam and good external links in the "tutorials" department. There are a million websites that claim to have a method to practice Spanish, and 99.9% of them are just trying to sell you a course. I suggest we round up a few good external links, ditch the rest and close off the section. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 10:25, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

This page is a major spam attractor! Given the lack of response to the above, I decided to be bold and trimmed the section down quite a bit, though I still think there are too many links. The links I removed include a dead one, a couple that were simply advertisements for language courses, and others which did not lead to much information (or information not already in Wikipedia). --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 18:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone checked out the link:
After registering, it seems to be just another way of sending you advert-laden "newsletters" etc. Perhaps I haven't given enough time for the "Free language course" to come through, or is this just more spam? Camillus (talk) 11:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Let them come! Spam is spam, so I resort to simply scrap it off when it gets thick. If someone protests, it can be easily restored, after all. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

What exactly would qualify a site to be linked to from here? I am building a site to teach people Spanish and would love to be able to get a link from here. Cheers Morryau 10:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish in northwestern Brazil ?

* Section and information about the map, collected to commons:Image talk:Map-Hispanophone World.png  Yug (talk)
 17:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that the world map featured in the article has the western half of the northern Brazilian state of Amazonas colored in light green, indicating a "sizeable minority of Spanish speakers". That is factually inaccurate and should be corrected. The aforementioned colored area is actually a very sparsely populated region of Brazil inhabited mostly by native Amerindians or isolated rural communities of mixed European/Amerindian descent. Most people in those communities are native speakers of either some Amerindian language or some form of uneducated Brazilian vernacular (a semi-creolized version of standard Brazilian Portuguese). One would be hard-pressed to find even a handful of people in that area with the ability to speak and/or understand Spanish, much less a "sizeable minority" of native Spanish speakers. 00:18, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I never noticed before! I'll contact the creator of the Map for references. Mariano(t/c) 07:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Ceiar" x "Cear" (was Re: Portuguese/Spanish cognates)

The correct noun in modern standard Portuguese is "ceia" (the older form "cea" is found only in the medieval and early modern language). The verb "cear" appears to be used however in Portugal; in Brazil, I believe the variant "ceiar" is now more common. Incidentally, "ceiar" in the modern language is not exactly a synonym of "jantar". At least in Brazil (I'm not sure about Portugal), "ceia" (noun) usually means a late-night dinner of the type one would have e.g. on Christmas eve or New Year's eve. BTW, it should be mentioned that the Portuguese language features several less-common words that are cognates of words found in other Romance languages, but are used with a different meaning. For example, the Portuguese cognate of French "fenêtre" is actually "fresta"; "fresta" however means "slit" in Portuguese, as opposed to "window" (Port "janela"). Likewise, Portuguese "tábua" is a cognate of French "table", but it means "board" rather than English "table". 161.24.19.82 12:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I checked a few Brazilian dictionaries and, as expected, they all record the form "cear" as being the correct one. However, if you do a Google Brazil search, you will notice that "ceiar" is indeed far more common. Maybe the dictionaries are just being conservative.

About "fenestra", normal modern Galician (in spite of Spanish calque "ventá") is "fiestra" or yet "fenestra", "fiestra" coming from "fenestra" > "feestra" > "fiestra" (same pronunciation as "compreender"). Parallel to this, "fieito" or "fento" ("feto"), you can find it at Priberam dictionary, "Bieito" or "Bento", and so on. Forms in "-iei-" (in fact, "-jej-", semivowel) are majoritarian ones in Galician. Also, "cea" is ther normal word.

[edit] Wrong IPA transcription

The Outside Spain IPA transcription for El quijote has at least one mistake. "Rocín" is transcribed as /ro'θin/, which must be wrong as that is the transcription given for Inside Spain. However I don't have the knowdlege to try to correct it (do I just change /θ/ to /s/? or do some vowels change too?), so I decided I'll just tell you here. 201.133.90.50 02:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC) Rodrigo Gallardo

  • Thanks for the notice. I corrected the passages, and the above table, adding common variants found in Latin America. (I didn't add aspirated variaties or the like, thought they would be better reserved for the Spanish Phonetics section.)
    Also, for future reference (for everyone), specifically for IPA transcription, know what you're doing, or ask before you make a huge correction. It isn't necessary to put the dental diacritic UNDER EVERY CONOSONANT! I found the diacritic under almost every t, d, n, ɲ, and even under ð and θ (the dental fricatives); they're dental sounds to begin with, they don't need further dentalization with diacritics!
    Rant over.Hotchy 07:05, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The transcriptions are given as phonetic rather than phonemic. This means one is transcribing the actual sounds and allophones rather than the phonemes, and it may be very relevant to make it explicit that the t and d are pronounced dental and not alveolar (which is the default meaning for those symbols), a clarification that is especially relevant for English-speaking audiences whose t and d are not dental. Uaxuctum 19:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

And speaking of the IPA transcriptions, why were the vowels recently changed to the Andalucían phonemes? IPA for Spanish vowels are the same as written, ɜ and such are not used by the rest of the Spanish speaking world. While distinguishing the general difference between Latin American and Castilian Spanish seems fine, anything further should be left to a page detailing Spanish phonetics. But if we go to more minute dialectal differences, then perhaps I should add, for instance, a section on New Mexican Spanish, Mexican Spanish, Dominican Republic, Argentina, Uruguay, etc. Barring substantial reason to retain the Andulicían pronunciation, I'm changing the IPA back to Standard Spanish. Matthew Stuckwisch 07:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

  • And figures I'd still miss about half of them on my clean up *arg* Matthew Stuckwisch 19:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Why is ð̞e ˈlan.sa considered standard Spanish? Shouldn't it be ðe ˈlan.θa? -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.218.119.14 (talk • contribs) 10:26, 10 December 2006.

Almost nobody, except (most of) the Spaniards and people with a lisp, pronounces z as /θ/. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
When I added the comment it said Standard Spanish, not Latin American Spanish or Porteño, and since three are three Standard Spanish, I thought that should be changed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.218.119.14 (talk) 12:35, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Importance of Spanish

We've had the last part of the intro removed and then reinstated. I personally have no problem with the content of the text, but I think it's true that it's spurious. Words like "arguably", "considered", etc., without sources, all point to the fact that the text is opinion, a comment, or basic original research. Anyone who reads the article will conclude that Spanish is extremely important; there's no need to tell the reader that. This is an article, not an essay; it must inform, not convince. I won't remove the text again myself to avoid an edit war, unless there's a consensus to do it. What do other editors say? —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 00:33, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

  • I completely agree with you. Opinions don't contribute to the overall passage. If they reappear, should be re-deleted.Hotchy 07:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User:Losbeatles

Losbeatles (talk • contribs) has inserted some text that is not coherent with the rest of the article. It sets French as the second or third most important language (without sources), and sets the birth rate in most of the countries where it is official as one of the main reaons for it being so popular, which is completly tendentious. Though he/she adds other information that is not completly erroneous. I'll try to fix its edits, but the article's opening paragraph should be revised. Mariano(t/c) 10:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paraguay on the map

* Section and information about the map, collected to commons:Image talk:Map-Hispanophone World.png  Yug (talk)
 18:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

According to Demographics of Paraguay, only 75% of the population speaks Spanish, as opposed to the 90% that speak Guarani; thereby meaning that Spanish is not "the main language" in the country. Because of this shouldn't Paraguay be in green instead of dark green on the map? --Krsont 20:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I doubt only 75% speaks Spanish, and Spanish is actually more official than guaraní oregarding official papers. Mariano(t/c) 09:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Every stat I've read shows that Guaraní is more common than Spanish in Paraguay...this was a recent point in question on a Language list I subscribe to. While Spanish is used primarily by the ruling force, it´s not as much the language of the people (although there is a large degree of bilingualism to be sure). Think the French control of the English court: French was "official" but the people spoke English. Mix in a little more French spoken by the people and you have a similar situation.

[edit] Classification and Related Languages: Spanish x Catalan

The article claims a Catalan speaker with no knowledge of Spanish can more or less understand it, whereas the contrary is not necessarily true. I wonder how that statement has been verified in practice. The truth is most Catalan speakers happen to be either bilingual in Catalan and Spanish or at least have had considerable exposure to Spanish on radio, TV, and, more significantly, at school. That makes any assessment of mutual intelligibility biased to say the least. In purely linguistic terms though, the fact is that the lexical overlap between Catalan and Spanish is significantly lower than the one that exists between Spanish and Portuguese. In fact, Catalan vocabulary includes several "recent Latin" words (like 'parlar', 'voler', 'fromatge', etc...) that are actually shared with Italian and French rather than Spanish/Portuguese. Catalan grammar is also quite distinct from its Spanish counterpart, albeit still closely related (to the extent that the grammar of all Romance languages is). Finally, Catalan pronunciation is also quite different from the pronunciation of Spanish (and, in a few aspects, somewhat closer I think to that of European Portuguese). Given the considerable differences between the two languages, I wouldn't expect a high degree of mutual intelligibility between a Spanish and Catalan speaker without any prior knowledge of each other's language. Mbruno 14:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

  • You make a very interesting point. Since many speakers of Catalan also speak Spanish (but not the other way around), it is impossible linguistically to determine whether A. Catalan is mutually intelligible with Spanish (but not the other way around), or rather that B. speakers of Catalan readily understand Spanish because they grow up in a majority Spanish speaking environment (more likely). If it's ambiguous it should be edited or removed IMO.Hotchy 07:17, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe that, being Catalan at least as simillar to Spanish as Italan and Spanish, and since Italians that don't speak Spanish can understand quite some of it, Catalan-only speakers wouldn't understand Spanish more that what would Spanish speakers understand Catalan. To Spanish speakers, knowledge of Italian or French, can grately improve the understanding of Catalan.
I understand the idea that given the open pronunciation of vowels, a Catalan-only speaker that learns the strightfoward Spanish reading would perhaps better understand Spanish than hsi Spanish speaker counterpart, but I'm not sure if it's in the scope of this article to cover that non-practical subject. Mariano(t/c) 10:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree it's out of the scope of the article; the topic came up recently re Gallego and Spanish in the Portuguese article. This should be reserved for the Romance Languages article. Matthew Stuckwisch 02:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, the statement of "a speaker of Catalan who doesn't speak Spanish" in fact can be proved. There are Catalan speakers in Roussillon, France, who doesn't speak Spanish. Yes, they speak also French, but exist the case of Catalan speakers not Spanish speakers. And, in general, they understand better Spanish than a Spanish speaker understands them.

[edit] Comparison between Spanish and Portuguese

Hola. I've started a new page called Differences between Spanish and Portuguese. I thought it was better to have a specific article for it, since the comparisons were taking up too much of the Portuguese language article. Feel free to add to the new article. Saludos. FilipeS 19:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish web ressource?

Hi,

Is is ok to add http://www.TODO-CLARO.COM as a new web ressource here? TODO-CLARO.COM offers free interactive Spanish exercises for beginners, intermediate and advanced students. Users can chose from different exercise types (grammar, situations, vocabulary, cultural studies). Feedback welcome.

Sadly the course is in German, so I would say no. Mariano(t/c) 06:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

TODO-CLARO is in German and English. The English version starts here http://www.todo-claro.com/e_index.php.

It's not enough to point to the main URL. http://www.todo-claro.com/English_cultural_studies_overview.php is the URL to use if wanted. Anyway, it only has a Quiz of cultural things, so still not good enough (my oppinion only). Mariano(t/c) 11:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The general criterion we've been using in Spanish-related pages is pointing to major websites and avoiding conjugation quizzes, courses, tutorials, etc., of which there are literally thousands, and which can be easily found using a common search engine, should the reader need them. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 13:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Related languages section

This section could use a rework. I reformatted the table and renamed the comparing Spanish and Catalan section to comparing Spanish and other languages since the table includes Latin and English, et al. The text by the table also goes into comparing Catalan with Portuguese. I think the table needs to move and maybe the romance languages and other languages section combined, but I want to hear what others think. Ryanminier 16:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Countries that say castellano

Argentina seems to be missing from the current list of countries that say castellano: "Castellano is the name given to the Spanish language in Bolivia, Ecuador, Paraguay, Peru, Uruguay and Venezuela". I am from Buenos Aires and castellano is definitely the term we use. AleF

[edit] External links section de-bloated (again)

I've removed a large part of the external links of this article, in keeping with a sensible interpretation of WP:EL and WP:NOT. We do not need every conceivable online dictionary, quizz, tutorial, etc. about Spanish. Wikipedia readers can find those easily with a search engine. I've kept important reference materials, including one tutorial site because it allows for a grammar to be downloaded, rather than browsed. Some of the websites I removed were more advertising than content; others had mistakes; one was very interesting, but consisted solely of unverified original research; most repeated basic information already present in this article or its sub-articles. I suggest that new external links should be considered very carefully before being added. For some reason this page seems to be a major spam attractor... —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 22:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

My apologies! I added a link back in September or so, and noted that it survived a few of the 'despamming' raids. The link I added was for: http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen= As a beginner in Spanish, I find this site to be very helpful. The structure of the different tenses and etc. In my opinion, wordreference is far superior to the yahoo link because of this, and I believe it deserves a space in the external links section! But, it's our call, and not mine! :) By the way, here is an example of the conjugation that I talked about: http://www.wordreference.com/conj/ESverbs.asp?v=comer 84.209.8.237 02:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changed opening paragraph

I cleaned this up. It first read this way:

"Spanish (español) or Castilian (castellano) is an Iberian Romance language. It is spoken by 332 million[1] people in countries where it is an official language, 94.6% of the whole population, 1998 data, currently these countries amount a total estimated population of 398 million, and by more than 32 million where it is an unofficial language (28 million in the US[2], 2000 data). Speakers can be nowadays estimated in 410 million in number, making Spanish the most widely spoken Romance language..."

I changed it to now read this way:

"Spanish (español) or Castilian (castellano) is an Iberian Romance language. It is spoken by roughly 364 million people[1][2], making Spanish the most widely spoken Romance language"

The figures in the Wikipedia article for the total number of speakers of Spanish worldwide are greatly exaggerated. A significant percentage of the population in countries where Spanish is an official language actually do not speak Spanish as first language. That is the case in Spain itself and in most Latin-American countries with large indigenous populations. As for the number of Spanish speakers in the U.S, the census only indicates the percentage of the population that uses Spanish most often at home, which does not necessarily mean having Spanish as first language. From personal experience, I know several children of Spanish-speaking immigrants in the U.S. who speak Spanish at home to their parents, but who are nonetheless far more proficient in English (the language they use on a regular basis at work or at school, or when interacting socially with their friends). Even if we assumed your rationale to be correct, 332 + 28 million equals 360 million, not 410 (I don't know where that number came from) !

[edit] Puerto Rico

Puerto Rico is listed as one of the 22 countries that have Spanish as an official language. However, it should be noted that Puerto Rico is not a country, but a commonwealth of the United States, and that its residents are citizens of the United States, not of Puerto Rico. --Tim4christ17 07:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] One problem about the start of El Quijote

In the part Examples of English with Spanish Transcription and Pronunciation, there is a problem with the transcription:

English: In a village of La Mancha,

the name of which I have no desire to recall...

It's true that in the modern spanish we understand I don't want to remember something, but in the spanish of Cervantes, the meaning is I can't remember something. It does more sense than the other transcription, I think.

Are you sure about that? I have a dictionary that goes back to the early 1700s, which is, granted, still 200 years later, but the definition given in said period for querer was:

QUERER. v.a. Deſear ò apetecer con ánſia alguna coſa. Tiene la anomalía de recibir una i deſpues de la u en algunos tiempos y perſonas: como Yo quiero, Quiere tu, Aquel quiera, &c. y en los pretéritos toma la is en lugar de er: como Quiſe , quiſera, &c. y en el imperfecto de ſubjuntivo duplica la r diciendo Querria. Sale del Latino Quærere, que vale buſcar. Lat. Velle. Appetere. SOLD. PIND. lib.2.§.II. Querían antes de ſoltar el páxaro, tener aſido otro de mejor pluma. VILLEG. Erotic. Od.20.
Qué me ſirve el dinéro,
Si no me ha de alcanzar lo que yo quiero?
QUERER. Significa tambien amar con deſeo, tener cariño, voluntad ò inclinación à alguna perſona. Lat. Diligere. Amore proſequi. LOP. Arcad. f.118.Amé. quiſe y adoré una hermoſa Paſtóra. MORET. Com. Antioco y Seleuco. Jord.I. Tom V.

Since this obviously doesn't date back to the first Diccionario I'll admit I could very well be wrong, but from the definition here, it sounds like philologists back in the day saw querer as only a means of desire, or perhaps search/longing (since it claims it came from the Latin word for to search). I think "I can not search for" versus "I can not find" are two slightly different things. If anyone else has studied much golden age Spanish and can voice in (or can site an early Diccionario, which I'd be quite interested in seeing) we can try to clarify the translation. Matthew Stuckwisch 02:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consonant table

I just edited the consonant table, which differed from the one in the phonology page, most notably with the addition of retroflex sounds. I tried to find a discussion of the inclusion of these but couldn't find anything. There was also no indicator of what conditions these allophones occur in. Does anyone know what the deal is? AEuSoes1 09:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Change of inaccurate example

I took the example of Aragon off from the sentence which says that 'the Castilian dialect differs from those of other regions of Spain (Andalusia and Aragon for example)'. While this is true that Castilian (Northern Spanish) differs significantly in many aspects -particularly in phonology- from Southern Spanish (mainly Murcia, most of Extremadura, Andalusia and the Canary Islands), the same is not true for the northern regions, where either a different language is spoken (Galician, Asturian, Basque, Aragonese and Catalan) or Spanish is spoken in a clearly Castilian way. The main differences are in intonation and the use of some words, but that happens even within different parts of Castile itself. There are no remarkable differences between the way Castilian is spoken in Soria (E of Castile) and central Aragon, for instance. Aragonese is a different language, but nowadays it is only spoken actively in the north of Aragon, so we are not talking of bilingual interference here. The Spanish spoken in Aragon is clearly Castilian, only with some little differences in vocabulary and a characteristic intonation that are due to the medieval extension of the Aragonese language and that presently is common to Aragon, most of Navarre, E of La Rioja, and Castilian provincias next to Aragon. These are the reasons why I edited that part. Estrolicador 02:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison with Other languages: Why Italian and French?

I think the table has too many languages. While the notes on Quebec French and Basque are interesting, and should be kept, no one doubts that standard French, Italian, and Spanish are different languages. There is already a general comparison between Romance languages at Romance languages. This article should focus on the languages that are more closely related to Spanish, such as Portuguese and Catalan. FilipeS 21:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, in several aspects Italian is closer to Spanish than Portuguese. Anyway, its true the article is about Spanish, so Portuguese and Catalá could also be removed. Mariano(t/c) 06:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Overall, I think there is no question that Spanish is closer to Portuguese than to Italian. Catalan is also an interesting language to compare it with, because it has been under the influence of Spanish for a long time, and it's a transition language between Iberian Romance and other Romance languages. Italian and French, though, are totally different beasts, IMO. FilipeS 12:01, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps is the pronunciation, but I believe I can understand much better Italian than Portuguese, especially spoken, but also written. Then again, it might also be my dialectic Spanish. Mariano(t/c) 13:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I was surprised to hear that you have more trouble understanding written Portuguese than Italian. I've heard from several Spanish speakers that they can read Portuguese with little difficulty even though they never studied it, and I can say the same about Spanish. Understanding written Italian is much more difficult for me -- too many strange words and unusual constructions. Of course, there is the occasional exception, where Italian and Portuguese happen to be closer to each other than either is to Spanish, but this is not the general rule. But you've studied Italian formally, haven't you? I can read French better than Italian -- but then I've studied it. ;-)

Going back to Spanish and this article, I haven't been involved in the writing of the table (not counting a couple of minor corrections), but it seems to me that, in an article about Spanish, a comparison between it, Catalan, Portuguese, and possibly Galician, Astur-Leonese, Extremaduran and Aragonese might be more interesting than a comparison with better known Romance languages, since the latter type of comparison can easily be found in many other places. Of course, this is just a suggestion. Regards. FilipeS 14:36, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison between Spanish and other Romance languages: Portuguese

The section on Portuguese seems a little bloated, compared to the rest of the article. If there are no objections, I think I'll move some of it to the specific article, Differences between Spanish and Portuguese. FilipeS 13:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Number of speakers

In the table it says that in Argentina there are 41,248,000 speakers of Spanish, however the article on Argentina says that the total population of Argentina is 39,921,833. The same goes for Puerto Rico and many other countries listed. What is the source for the first figures (and generally all figures in that table)?--Rudjek 20:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Ethnologue has a detailed table of the numbers of Spanish speakers [1]. Would anyone object if I used these figures?--Rudjek 20:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Figures from Ethnologue are more than 10 years old! Differences in Argentine population reside probably in the year of estimation (2005/2006?); next census in 2011. Mariano(t/c) 07:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, the 2006 estimate in Argentina's infobox is 39,921,833. The figure of 41,248,000 speakers should be removed unless someone can explain how it fits with the census data. Old data are better than wrong data. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 13:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of D

The pronunciation examples at the end of the article have some questionable examples of the D pronunciation. For example.

Ayúdeme [aˈju.ðe.me]

It is certainly true that this pronunciation is quite common in the Spanish-speaking world. However I am not aware that this pronunciation has ever been considered by the Academy to be anything but a slang pronunciation. So far as I am aware the D still has only one official pronunciation. And indeed I believe that most people, even if they do speak this way, would also consider it slang (just as most people who say "ain't" would never claim this expression to be proper English).

I am not sure if this was an oversight or an attempt to deviate from the Academy's standards. Nevertheless, since Spanish is a standardized language (compared to, say, English) it is only proper to say that the Academy's standard represents the correct version of the language some aspects of the standard are not the most common usage of the language. This is not to say that the article cannot list alternate pronunciations (as it does) but representing these alternates as "standard Spanish" is not really valid. --Mcorazao 19:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm affraid I don't read IPA. What's wrong with such D? Mariano(t/c) 07:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
It's the "soft th" in English words such as this, and it is also quite correct in the case of Spanish. Voiced plosives between vowels are realized as very soft fricatives or approximants. Nowhere, that I know, is d pronounced [d] between vowels. I'm not aware of an official RAE pronunciation guide. In any case, we're describing Spanish, not the Academy's largely artificial version thereof, though both should be mentioned. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The Academy is far more of a descriptive organisation these days than it used to be. In fact, the name it gives for the letter v varies from uve to ve to ve corta. So, there are some things to which there is no singular standard even according to the RAE. Re the letter d and its pronunciation according to the RAE:
f. Quinta letra del abecedario español, y cuarta del orden latino internacional, que representa un fonema consonántico dental y sonoro. Su nombre es de.
Feminine. Fifth letter of the Spanish alphabet and forth of the international Latin ordering, that represents a voiced dental consonant phoneme. Its name is de.
Note that both the IPA letters d and ð are voiced and dental and consonants. The only difference is that one is plosive, and the other is not (however, the RAE does not stipulate one or the other).
As Pablo said before, it depends on where the letter is. Betweem two vowels it's always soft, while at the begining or after another consonant is explosive. Mariano(t/c) 08:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'm not an expert here. From the portion of the RAE's standards you've quoted, I would interpret this as saying that the academy interprets the letter as having one sound. Granted it is not very precise in what that sound is but I don't read this to imply that the speaker should vary pronunciation. --Mcorazao 03:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
SOAPBOX: I would like to say that I strongly diagree with the philosophy that this article (or any article documenting a major language) should treat the definitions specified by a recognized standards organization as something different from the standard language. One of the great accomplishments in the world in the last couple of centuries has been encouraging standards for the languages and reversing the trend toward languages diverging into mutual incomprehensibility. I personally believe the RAE's mission is a good one and, again not that I'm an expert, but I'm not under the impression that the academy's standard is radically different from what the average educated Spaniard speaks (and indeed part of the point of the standard is to slow the language drift). I believe that it is presumptuous to say that Wikipedia's authors have more of a right to define what is true Spanish than such a widely recognized organization as the RAE. I certainly think it is appropriate for an article like this to discuss regional variations from the RAE's standard and even to point out when most people speak differently from the standard in some cases. But saying anything more than that seems unjustified (and potentially contributing to the problem the RAE is intended to solve). --Mcorazao 03:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
No, what the RAE has is purposely ambiguous, note what it states for the letter t:
f. Vigésima tercera letra del abecedario español, y vigésima del orden latino internacional, que representa un fonema consonántico oclusivo, dental y sordo. Su nombre es te.
Feminine. Twenty-third letter of the Spanish alphabet and twentieth of the international Latin ordering, that represents a voiceless dental occlusive [or stopped] consonant phoneme. It’s name is te.
There, the position of the tongue is also mentioned. One of the reasons the RAE does not go into extensive detail with regards to the pronunciation of ‹d› is because it’s very variable, unlike that of ‹t› which is far more consistent amongst different dialects. The ‹r›, for instance, is extremely varied in different dialects, but with few exceptions it’s always a trilled consonant, but it makes note in different positions it can more than a single flap. The description of ‹n› is very complex — but note that it's pronunciation is quite consistent amongst speakers, even though it varies greatly depending on what’s around it in the word. However, ‹d› can receive a number of pronunciations, the most varied of which is actually the word-final position. Just ask around how many different pronunciations of ‹Madrid› there are. Some will end with [d], others [θ] (the most common in Madrid itself), [t], [ð], [h], or even [Ø]. But, the descriptionw ould be too complex for a simple dictionary. Also, the RAE does not exist to try to bring all dialects into a single one. That was tried in a number of languages (read: English in America) although not necessarily by academia, but now the general tendency is around preservation of dialects. All speakers of the different dialects of Spanish that I know of are quite mutually intelligible, just are all of those of English (a Deep Southerner would still be able to undersand a Kiwi or a Jersey cityboy or a Northern Highlander). The RAE exists to create what is known as “Standard Spanish” which one should interpret more as one does “Formal English”. It’s what’s used to aid mutual comprehension, especially in written works, but not to destroy other dialects. I’d imagine what I type doesn’t seem too different than any other English-speakers’ output, but in person I have a thick SAE accent and use a number of idioms that would confuse most. Just be careful next time you get on a soapbox that you understand what an organisation actually stands for.

I think Mcorazao may not have noticed that what the RAE describes are the phonemes of Spanish, not all its phones. FilipeS 12:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Moreover, it's not a "philosophy" of ours to "treat the definitions specified by a recognized standards organization as something different from the standard language." Those things are necessarily different. Nobody has given authority to the RAE to define what Spanish is, and that would be impossible anyway. Living languages, like living species, evolve, mutate and diverge. It's highly unlikely that dialects of Spanish will drift away from each other radically in the foreseeable future, barring some worlwide catastrophe that renders long-distance communications impossible; but the RAE has nothing to do with that. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 13:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


Well, it certainly was not intention to offend and I think my comments may have been read in way that was not intended. Nevertheless I apologize for any offense. For what it's worth, I'm basing a lot of my interpretation on second-hand interpretations from others who have been formally educated in Spanish-speaking countries (mostly my father).
I do realize that the RAE describes phonemes, not phones. This obviously leaves open the possibility of vagueness in interpretation. Regarding the letter D specifically (and others like it) I still tend to interpret this to say that the academy's intent was to say that the letter should have a single phone although maybe they say that either [d] or [ð] is acceptable as long as you use just one (even though this is not how the average person actually speaks). Clearly, though, they are not saying [t] or [h] are acceptable (even though a lot of people speak this way). Nevertheless I'll defer to those of you that are more familiar with the Academy's guidelines as I am certainly not an authority.
Regarding the discussion as to how this article should be written and what the RAE stands for, these are two separate issues. As far as what the RAE stands for the web site says the following.

La Academia «tiene como misión principal velar porque los cambios que experimente la Lengua Española en su constante adaptación a las necesidades de sus hablantes no quiebren la esencial unidad que mantiene en todo el ámbito hispánico»

I think this agrees with your definition. The point to be clarified is this does NOT say that the academy's intent is to somehow document all the regional dialects (although I'm sure they do that as well as a secondary mission). Nobody has suggested that it is the academy's intent to stamp out any local dialects nor is it my intent. I would argue that an implied intent of the RAE is that the academy does not want these dialects to continue to diverge and, to the extent that these dialects continue to change as they inevitably will, they will tend to converge (you are welcome to debate if that is a losing proposition). For comparison one can observe that up until the 19th century the English language was diverging rapidly. As the 20th century has progressed, though, the English language has been largely reconverging due to the influence of education and television (and other technologies). One can choose to view this in a "glass is half empty" sort of way in that some of the "regional flavor" is being lost. But, realistically, the dialects were going to continue changing and it is a positive thing that they are becoming more mutually intelligible instead of less so. This has not happened to quite so great an extent with Spanish but it is happening and I'd argue that is similarly a good thing (I'm not arguing that the RAE has been the only reason but I'm sure it has contributed).
As far as what this article should be documenting, all I'm saying is that the article should be clear in distinguishing beween "standard spanish" and the regional dialects (with a bias toward the former unless explicitly stated otherwise). I think the article is mostly doing that so I've probably belabored this point far more than is necessary. :-) --Mcorazao 14:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Mcorazao, when the RAE says that "d" stands for a "voiced dental consonant" - notice that this applies to both [d] and [ð]! - my interpretation is that they mean that "d" represents one phoneme, /d/. However, this phoneme is realised as [d] in some positions within a word, and as [ð] in others (and it has even other realisations in more particular environments, in some dialects). Regards. FilipeS 18:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and in fact, to be accurate, the actual phone is seldom the fricative [ð], but the approximant [ð̞]. Three of the voiced obstruents in Spanish (b, d and g) are realized as approximants ([β̞], [ð̞] and [ɰ]) in all cases except when absolute initial (such as at the start of a sentence) or when following a nasal (the d also when following l); the other voiced obstruent (y) follows an analogous pattern but with plosive/affricate [ɟ]/[ʥ] for the fortis allophone and fricative [ʝ] for the lenis allophone. That is, the plosive allophone of these phonemes is in fact the least frequent one, and this allophonic distribution is not something dialectal at all, but a general and in fact very characteristic feature of the phonology of the language (an areal feature shared with other Iberian languages like Basque, Catalan and Galician), which moreover explains some other phonological phenomena, such as the hu-/gu- alternance ([w]/[ɰw]/[gw], note that [w] and [ɰ] differ in labialization while [ɰ] and [g] differ in degree of closure), or the extreme lenition of final -d (which can lead to its total loss, or to a bounceback fortition in order to avoid that loss by devoicing it into interdental [θ̟] in the Madrilene dialect). Also, pronouncing them as plosives where this is not allophonically appropriate is a clear marker of foreign pronunciation (e.g., Italians tend to speak very good Spanish due to the close resemblance of both languages, but their always-plosive way of pronouncing b/d/g is one of the things that most clearly betrays them as non-natives). If the user Mcorazao has any doubt about these facts, please care read any serious book about Spanish phonology; nowhere you'll find a description of Spanish pronunciation where the b/d/g phonemes are said to consist of just their plosive allophone. Uaxuctum 16:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Online translator for sentences

I just started taking spanish and my teacher tells us to find some phrases to translate so i came to wiki and found the yahoo translator, but this only does singe words can someone please help my out? Chuck61007 02:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Castilian

"Castilian" is given here as a synonym for "Spanish". I believe this is wrong. There is no question that in Spanish, when speaking of language castellano and español are interchangeable, but I believe this is not the case for their English-language equivalents. "Castilian" in English has the narrower connotation of specifically Castilian dialect; for example, the dialect of Andalusia is not "Castilian", but it is emphatically "Spanish". - Jmabel | Talk 01:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, claiming that "Castilian" means something different in English than castellano does in Spanish is a little pedantic. The fact of the matter is that both words have multiple meanings in both languages. FilipeS 12:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you just check a dictionary? Just because the two words look the same doesn't mean they do mean the same or are used in the same way in both languages. The American Heritage, the Merriam-Webster's and the Oxford, all agree in restricting the meaning of Castilian (AHD, M-W, OED) to the dialect of Castile and to the standard form of the Spanish language based on that dialect; restrictions that do not apply to the term Spanish (AHD, M-W, OED), which is defined as "the Romance language spoken in blah blah". Contrast this with the RAE dictionary, which clearly gives one definition of castellano as "la lengua española" (remarking that the term is used especially to contrast the Spanish language with other languages of Spain like Catalan, instead of to contrast the Castilian dialect with the other dialects of Spanish as in English usage). Uaxuctum 18:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Mexico

New Mexico is not a nation and therefore cannot be included in the infobox in the list of nations, SqueakBox 20:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The United Nations is also not a nation. Should that be removed as well? Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 21:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely, Spanish is not the language of the US, SqueakBox 21:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Slow down, man! I said United Nations. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]

The UN? What about the EU? The OAS? SqueakBox 22:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The consensus before was absolutely to keep the US out of this list. What has changed? hence the pov tag, SqueakBox 22:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Where's this consensus? Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 22:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

In the previous archives that someone unintelligently made impossible to search through (by dividing them into more than one archive), SqueakBox 22:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The consensus was out of an argument by a minority pushing for US recognition, IMO POV pushing the US where it doesnt belong, hence the tag, SqueakBox 22:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

If a considerable minority speaks it then not including that is POV. The only discussion I could find in regards to Spanish in the US is aspects of Spanish as an official language. I'm sure you can find which archive it is in better than I could. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 22:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not willing to search through 5 archives though if there is no disagreement I am willing to combine the archives and search using Ctrl F. The problem is it makes it out that the US is a Spanish speaking country, which it isnt, SqueakBox 22:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was gonna offer to do that. Go for itƵ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 22:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Do not go for it. The archives were not made for comfortable searches. The content of the archive is dumped there precisely because it's old and therefore not referenced often. However, if you feel there's a part of the past discussion about Spanish in the US that should be more readily accessible because the issue re-emerges every now and then, you're free to copy it from the archive and paste a summary at the top of this page, for reference. Nobody wants to wait for a single-file 1 MB archive to load, especially users of Wikipedia who don't have access to a high-speed Internet connection.
Don't remove a POV tag, ever, unless it's clearly a bad faith edit or a joke. By definition, if one editor feels an article is POV, then it is. The tag should only be removed when the matter has been settled. Same goes for "citation needed" tags; if one editor says it's not common knowledge, then a source is needed — better err on the side of caution. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 23:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree about the archives, not really sure why people want to make this stuff unsearchable. A 1 MB archive would download in approx 20 seconds with a dial-up, but unless we can merge the archives we cant search them either so you'll just have to take my word for it. If you split archives up it cant be referenced AT ALL but I know some users hate large pages, obviously not web searchers. Essentially what you are saying is we musnt have users waiting a few seconds for a page to download but its fine that they would have to spend hours searching through the archives that ahve been entirely randomly split up, which makes no sense. What do others think? SqueakBox 23:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The ciatation statement was sensibly removed. Spanish is clearly easier than the majoprity of languages for anglophones because the lettering is the same (viz a viz arabic, russian, chinese, etc), such an obvious statement that it needs neither sourcing nor appearing in the article which needs to be encyclopedic and assumes some intelligence on the part of the reader, SqueakBox 23:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Some of the archives have only two or three topics in them. That's a bit unnecessary. As for the citation regarding Spanish being easier to understand for Anglophones, that's going to need some sourcing. It's one thing to say it's easier to read because of the letters but easier to understand? I contest that. If anything, French or German would be easier to understand than Spanish. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 01:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Its easier to understand than foreign languages as a whole. Maybe there are half a dozen languages that are even easier to understand but there are probably a hundred spoken by a sizeable chunk of urban people that are far more difficult, and if a language is more difficult to read its definitely harder to understand. But the statement has been removed anyway, SqueakBox 01:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry. The statement needs a source. Until it gets one the tag stays. I'm being generous here because, quite frankly, the statement is so vague as to be meaningless. You've given three interpretations already. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 02:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

What needs a source is "Spanish is also arguably among the most extensively studied languages for long-term world backpackers who originate from Anglophone countries" and if you want to delete that as unsourced thaty is fine. The article doesnt claim any more that Spanish is relatively easy for Anglophones to grasp so there is no conflict here, SqueakBox 02:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, the article reflects our agreement. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 02:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I have now removed "Spanish is also arguably among the most extensively studied languages for long-term world backpackers who originate from Anglophone countries[citation needed] , due to the extensive geographic area and number of countries in Latin America where Spanish is the primary language and English is not widely understood." Put it back if you want, SqueakBox 02:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

The map citing the use of castellano re espanol is also incorrect as the majority term used in the south of the US is Spanish. Why is parts of the US coloured at all. I think the map needs changing or removing, certainly another reason to have the pov tag, SqueakBox 23:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

...People do speak Spanish in the United States. The map is shaded where a sizeable portion of Spanish speakers live. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 01:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

People speak Spanish in London as well, indeed all over the place, SqueakBox 01:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

A LOT more people speak Spanish in the Southern United States. Are you denying that?Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 02:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont think it makes any difference as other than in pockets English is far and away the dominanat language, it just reads like so much American conceit in an encyclopedia that suffers a huge systemic bias in favour of the States but we are writing an international encyclopedia. Lots of people speak Urdu and Hindi in England but their language pages dont glorify an English speaking country or try to make it an important source for these languages, and we shouldnt do the same with Spanish either, SqueakBox 02:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Considering that a considerable portion of the southwestern United States was part of Mexico for quite some time before it became part of the United States, I think there's quite a difference between Spanish in the US and Hindi/Urdu in England. I've read enough of the archives to agree that there is a consensus on the box on the side, but I don't think we need to adjust the map. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 02:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archive

Talk:Spanish language/Archive02 looks like it contains a lot of previous discussion on the validity of the US as a Spanish speaking nation, SqueakBox 01:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Caribbean and the US

The combined population of Cuba, the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico comprises the majority of the Caribbean islands' population. I indicated that in my edit this time. As to the inclusion of the US, please keep in mind that there is a separate section of the infobox for listing those countries where the language is official. What's the purpose of the "Spoken in" section, then? Is it not for listing the places where the language is spoken by a majority or important portions of the population, irrespective of whether or not it is an official language? Thirty-seven million speakers in the US seems kind of an important portion to me. They make Spanish the de facto second language of the nation. SamEV 03:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Please source your Caribbean claim. Spanish is spoken in all sorts of places and there is no need to mention the States, its pure American centrism in an encyclopedia riddled with this problem, SqueakBox 03:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

O ye, of little faith... It's not even close. Per this source, https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2119.html, the Caribbean and nearby island populations are as follows:
Anguilla 13,477 (July 2006 est.), Antigua and Barbuda 69,108 (July 2006 est.), Aruba 71,891 (July 2006 est.), Bahamas, The 303,770 (July 2006 est.), Barbados 279,912 (July 2006 est.), Bermuda 65,773 (July 2006 est.), British Virgin Islands 23,098 (July 2006 est.), Cayman Islands 45,436 (July 2006 est.), Cuba 11,382,820 (July 2006 est.), Dominica 68,910 (July 2006 est.), Dominican Republic 9,183,984 (July 2006 est.), Grenada 89,703 (July 2006 est.), Guadeloupe 452,776 (July 2006 est.), Haiti 8,308,504 (July 2006 est.), Jamaica 2,758,124 (July 2006 est.), Martinique 436,131 (July 2006 est.), Montserrat 9,439 (July 2006 est.), Netherlands Antilles 221,736 (July 2006 est.), Puerto Rico 3,927,188 (July 2006 est.), Saint Kitts and Nevis 39,129 (July 2006 est.), Saint Lucia 168,458 (July 2006 est.), Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 117,848 (July 2006 est.), Trinidad and Tobago 1,065,842 (July 2006 est.), Turks and Caicos Islands 21,152 (July 2006 est.), Virgin Islands 108,605 (July 2006 est.) Total population: 39,232,814. Cuba + Dom. Rep. + P. Rico = 9,183,984 + 11,382,820 + 3,927,188 = 24,493,992 = 62.4% of 39,232,814. So just as I stated, the Hispanic Caribbean's population composes the majority of the Caribbean's population.
Secondly, though Spanish is spoken everywhere, it is not spoken by a double-digit percentage of the population just everywhere. In fact, currently, the only country where it IS spoken by so many people which is not yet in the infobox is the United States. SamEV 21:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You said "with most of the area's population" which less than two thirds of the population cannot under any circumstances be considered. There are no surprises in your stats, its roughly what i figured. Around about 1 in 8 people speak Spanish in the States, which is a tiny percentage. So I support stating that a majority in the Caribbean speak Spanish but not most people, nor do I support the US in the info box as the percentage is well too low, I bet a higher percentage of people in Belize speak Spanish, SqueakBox 00:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I indeed said so and proved it: the Hispanic Caribbean's population comprises most of the Caribbean area's population.
Squeakbox, you need to calm down about "American centrism" crap. It's not POV to try to include mention of the millions of Spanish-speaking people in the US. I don't see much of a problem with not including the US in the side box because it is technically a minority; it's a stylistics issue that (as you pointed out) has a consensus behiind it. However, if you see Spanish in the United States, you'll find that Spanish is still quite prevalent in the US. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 04:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

"American centrism" isnt crap but a genuine problem in wikipedia, most of it from Americans confusing an international encyclopedia with anm American one. There is even a countering bias group dedicated to rooting out such problems of which I am a member, and there is no justification for ignoring this on any international article within the encyclopedia, SqueakBox 00:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I accept that there is a systemic American bias in Wikipedia but you have the burden of proof to show how it's an American bias to mention Spanish speakers in the United States. Otherwise, all you're doing is showing an anti-American bias which is just as POV as you accuse an American bias to be. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 00:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

It makes it sound like Spanish is what is spoken in the US, I dont believe 12% of people who can speak it (and doubtless considerably less who do so all the time) merits an entry, SqueakBox 03:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

You mean merits an entry in the box on the left, right? Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 05:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I do, SqueakBox 16:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

To put a list of the 4 largest Spanish countires after Mexico and include the US is more of the same insidious POV as if somehow the US is more Spanish than smaller countries like Uruguay, El Salvador, etc. We do treat the US in a paragraph on its own and that is all that is needed along with the article on Spanish in the US. To pretend thjat the US is more Spanish than the hispanic countries is blatant POV and why I get so narked at this US POV pushing, SqueakBox 17:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Your interpretation is odd, b/c the whole purpose is not what appearance it gives, but to objectively list the countries where the language has the largest number of speakers. Even then, the percentage of US speakers is clearly stated, so as not to leave any false idea. Why then go out of your way to avoid mention of the US, which is in the top 5? (A mere 37 MILLION speakers, oh by the way) The US is a major center of Hispanophone activity, with large, influential Spanish language media. You even removed mention of the number of US speakers, which was properly sourced, from the body of the article! And you deny a bias? SamEV 21:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

This is my compromise? SqueakBox 23:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

If that's your compromise, what's the NPOV tag for? Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 23:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

There is clearly still no consensus and until there is the POV tag stays, SqueakBox 18:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

To clarify my edit summary: the Census Bureau applies the term "US resident" to ALL persons residing in the US regardless of citizenship or immigration status. SamEV 01:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

We have a paragtraph on ther US, making out it is one of the bigghest Spanish speaking natioons around is insidious POV. Please stop it, SqueakBox 18:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

You had put the factfinder link in twice as it was already in the paragraph on the US. Given we say very little about the Spanish speaking nations in the section how come Belize and the US each get a whole paragraph and then you think that isnt enough, the US need a whole paragraph anfd half another paragraph, lol. We should give more focus to the Spanish speaking nations, almost none of which are 100% Spanish, instead of this obsession with nations that dont speak Spanish, SqueakBox 21:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UN

If we include the UN we must (a) do so for every language and (b) include the EU, OAS and any other international organisation where Spanish has official status. Lacking this we must not include the UN either, this particular edit is particularly unwelcome, SqueakBox 18:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be under the misapprehension that every language is an official language of the UN. Rather, "The UN has six official languages (Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian, Spanish) but only two working languages (English, French)." United Nations#Languages SamEV 19:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes well someone had included the EU and not the UN at English language, I honestly dont believe that even if it were the only official language at the UN that the UN should be included in the infobox. How can you compare an organisation to a sovereign state? SqueakBox 21:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's quite important that Spanish is an official language of the UN. Considering the impact that international bodies like the UN and NATO have had on the state and nature of war in the past 60 years, I'd say it's not just "an organization" (check your anti-UN bias at the door). If we're going to put it anywhere in the box on the right, it goes in the "official language of" section. If you think there are other important organizations that Spanish is the official language of, those can merit inclusion as well. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 21:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

What I think is it should be mentioned in the body of the work and not in an infobox, especially as this appears not to be a practice in the other official UN languages. I think the UN is arguably the most important organisation in the world but is still an organisation with no sovereignty, SqueakBox 21:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

And indeed it is in the opening sentence off the geographical distribution section. I think that is a prominent enough place to be, SqueakBox 21:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Jews and Phillipinos

If the Sephardic Jews spoke Spanish untilt the holocaust that would indicate they do not speak it now which is what the spoken infobox is exclusively interested in. The fact that Spanish was spoken in the Phillipinnes is also irrelevant as this box is strictly for current usage, SqueakBox 17:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

No, there are Sephardi Jews (as many as 100,000 in Israel) that still speak their distinctive dialect of Spanish to this day, and there are efforts to keep that linguistic legacy alive in their communities (a legacy which moreover is of great significance to the study of the history of Spanish, since Ladino preserves certain archaic features from the medieval period); even though most of the Sephardim now living in Israel have embraced Hebrew. Before their near-extermination in WWII, there were thriving Sephardic communities in many places around the Mediterranean arc, communities where Judæo-Spanish was the main everyday language. The most notable of which was maybe Salonica in Greece (then part of the Ottoman Empire), where the Sephardim were the largest ethnic group, making Spanish the dominant language in the streets of that city for a long time—until 50,000 of them were killed in the holocaust, which virtually wiped them out of the place. As for the Philippines, Spanish was its official language for four centuries, as the islands were part of the Spanish Empire (even the very name "Philippines" refers to the Spanish king Philip II), and consequently had large numbers of native and second-language speakers there, making it of great cultural significance to the islands and influencing Tagalog and other Philippine languages to the point that a substantial part of their nowadays everyday vocabulary is of Spanish origin. The situation changed when the U.S. got hold of the territory at the beginning of the 20th century following the Spanish-American War, and started conscious efforts to erradicate the usage of Spanish from the islands and replace it with English. But even with the anti-Spanish policies put forth by the U.S. occupation, which finally led to the demotion of Spanish to non-official status in 1973, the language is still natively spoken there by an amount of people (including mestizos and ethnic Spaniards born in the Philippines), who speak a distinct dialect and take pride in that historical legacy (to the point of organizing efforts to re-establish it as an official language). A study by the Instituto Cervantes of Manila and the Philippine Academy of the Spanish Language, even puts the actual figure of current Spanish-speakers in the Philippines in not just a few thousands but in the order of up to two or three millions (including 1st-, 2nd-, 3rd- and 4th-language speakers, see the Spanish in the Philippines article for reference). The point is, these two still-existent Spanish-speaking communities, regardless of their (disputable) current size, are not at all comparable to some random scattered clusters of speakers like the bunch of Spanish expatriates in, say, London (who do not speak a distinct dialect nor form a cohessive community with a significant cultural or political influence in the place, and thus there isn't and needn't be an article about "Spanish in London" unlike the very relevant articles on Spanish in the Philippines and Judæo-Spanish); these communities represent the current remnants of two historically important areas of the Spanish-speaking world. The "Spoken in" box should give an idea of the geographical spread of the language, and by leaving the current Spanish-speaking Filipinos and Sephardim out, one is failing to account for two significant areas of the "Hispanosphere" where the language is still spoken and where it has been historically very important (hell, there is even an official Philippine Academy of the Spanish Language belonging to the Association of Spanish Language Academies). Someone having a look at the box for quick reference would be left with the wrong impression that Spanish hasn't significantly reached the Far East or the eastern Mediterranean area. By the way, another significant omission in the box that I have just noticed is the Western Sahara, which was part of Spain until 1975 and where there are still large numbers of Spanish speakers (both native and second-language). Uaxuctum 20:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

All this should absolutely be in the article but not in the infobox. I consider the lack of Spanish in ther Phillipinnes to be a genuine tragedy for both SE Asia and Latin America. I think you are wrong about London, there is indeed a community in East London, SqueakBox 20:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

You haven't addressed my point: The communities of Spanish speakers in the Philippines and in Israel may be relatively small (depends on what statistics you take —one study by two official bodies puts the total figure of current Spanish speakers in the Philippines at over 3 million— and on how you look at them —I don't think 100,000 speakers in Israel is precisely a small figure). But those communities regardless of their size are significant, while the one in East London is not. Why? The very fact that there is an official Philippine Academy of the Spanish Language tells of how significant this community is for the language, and for its part the state of Israel created in 1997 an official body (the Autoridad Nasionala del Ladino) to preserve and standardize Judæo-Spanish, which shows that the Spanish speakers form a significant community in Israel. There is substantial academic interest in them; that's why there are individual Wikipedia articles dealing with Spanish in the Philippines and with Judæo-Spanish—they are significant, and in my opinion the infobox should mention all significant communities, not just those with the most speakers. On the other hand, nothing comparable at all can be said about the Spanish speakers in East London. Could you cite a book dealing with the topic of the Spanish-speaking community in London? Are there scholars studying the Spanish dialect spoken in London? Is there an official academic body looking over "Londonian Spanish"? Has Spanish ever been an official language in London? Would anyone ever think of including London in a map of the "Hispanosphere"? No. To start with, there is no such thing as a "Londonian dialect of Spanish". The Spanish speakers in London do not form a significant community for the "Hispanosphere", they are just a bunch of expatriates; so there is no need whatsoever to cite them in the infobox, unlike the Philippine and Sephardic Spanish-speaking communities which are significant for the language. Uaxuctum 00:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

They still arent notable enough to go in the infobox, to state Spanish is spoken in the Philippines is not really true and will give people a false impression while the Sephardic Jews aren't even a nation. And BTW I am not suggesting the Spanish speaking community in East London should go in there either, SqueakBox 00:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Saying that Spanish is spoken in the Philippines will not give a false impression at all; firstly because it is a fact (so much so that one of 22 Academies of the Spanish language is that of the Philippines, and documents in Spanish are still admitted by the Philippine courts), secondly because Spanish is culturally very important for the Philippines (having been its official language for four centuries), and thirdly because there is even a movement pushing to re-establish its official status in the country. In fact, what is POV is to arbitrarily leave this notable community of speakers out of the infobox, which creates the false impression that Spanish is not spoken anywhere in Asia. "The Sephardic Jews aren't a nation", so? Firstly, this is disputable (what constitutes a nation?); secondly, the Jews have a state of their own and the Sephardi Jews are part of it; thirdly, it would be absurd to say the criterion to be included in the infobox is to be a nation (what about the Catalans and the Valencians, are they nations? Some say yes, some say not; they certainly do not have a state of their own. Should they be excluded from the infobox in Catalan language if they aren't a "nation"?). You are yet to provide a single serious argument to support your view that these communities are not notable for the Spanish language, while I have already given you plenty of arguments to prove they are notable, arguments that so far you have refused to address. Uaxuctum 01:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The Sephardic Jews arent even a region, just a group of people. According to the wikipedia article on the Philippines arabic is equally important in terms of official language and this nation doesnt appear in Arabic language. Indeed reading the wikipedia article leaves me with the impression that Spanish is not notable enough to go into the infobox. "The use of Spanish in the Philippines was the original official language of the country for more than three centuries, but was used mainly by the educated illustrados (including José Rizal) or self taught natives and the Spanish authorities. Spanish was the language of Philippine Revolution, and the 1899 Malolos Constitution proclaimed it as the official language. Following the American occupation of the Philippines, its use declined, especially after 1940. Currently, only a few Spanish Mestizo families speak it as their first language, though many others use it together with Tagalog and English." is what the wikipedia article on this antion says and that just confirms to me that this country has no place in the infobox, SqueakBox 01:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Language box

I move that we have a policy of general reversion in regards to the language box to the side. If anyone wants to make any changes to it they should explain it in the talk page and get consensus first. It's the general Wikipedia policy to discuss changes first anyway. I for one will begin reverting with the following edit summary:

Rv: please discuss changes to the language box in the Talk page.

Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 01:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, SqueakBox 19:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish is not mainly called 'castellano' in Spain, but 'español'

It is not true that most people in Spain say 'castellano' as is drawn in the figure. That figure is in contradiction with what is said in the main text of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alx123 (talk • contribs) 16:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

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