Talk:Soybean

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[edit] Nutrition and health effects

"Infants fed normal adult soy milk for any length of time, have become extremely malnourished and even died. This is so because undiluted soy milk contains about the same proportion of protein as cow's milk~ ***around 30% ***which is way too much for a human infant--***human milk is about 6% protein.*** THIS IS VANDALISM..a little common sense please: 30% protein in cow's milk is laughable as is 6% for human milk....

I came across a great review on soy's benefits at http://www.revivalsoy.com/benefits - the FDA has stated there is NOT any statistically-signifcant evidence that soy causes harm to any patient group. What is funny is that the anti-soy sites don't have any of the recent safety studies posted. With billions being lost by the beef and dairy industry, you would have to be naive to think that these groups aren't being funded by the cow lovers! So eat your soy and become smart enough to learn the truth! :)

From what I've seen, quite a few "anti-soy" sites have lots of other "out there" claims about other safe foods as well, and also other unsubstantiated and biased bits of health "advice". Ralphael 02:34, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I came across a recently added sentence in this part of the article yesterday. "In fact, scientists are in general agreement that grain and legume based diets high in phytates contribute to widespread mineral deficiencies in third world countries". While it doesn't seem completely implausible that this is the case, does anyone have any actual reports or evidence that backs this up? Ralphael 22:41, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Since I couldn't find any evidence for this sentence, I removed it for now. Ralphael 02:11, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to know where the scientific evidence to support the claim isoflavones can prevent cancer is. Surely this isn't NPOV or factual. Also mentioning *EARLY* research showing the *POTENTIAL* for phytic acid to combat colon cancer is highly misleading. How about sticking to completed research that has reached a conclusion? Conversely research into the effects of soy on thyroid functionality is well documented. I personally know scientists strongly opposed to soy infant formulas that have no connection at all with Weston Price or Mercola. The negative effects of soy are not new "loud" claims. There have been studies since the 1930's raising concerns about soy consumption. If someone could point to a *CONCLUSIVE*, *NON-BIASED*, *INDEPENDANT* study supporting ANY positive health claims in relation to soy I'd be very interested. With 85% of the edible oils consumed in the US being from soy it is little wonder there is an obesity epidemic (As anyone with more than a primary school education should know, estrogens cause laying down of fat). What about decreasing fertility? Isn't anyone even remotely conecerned about the effects estrogens could have on male sexual and more importantly cognitive function??? I'd be very surprised if those responsible for the edits don't have industry connections.

Dear Anonymous Poster, I wish I had industry connections, I could use a better job at the moment. I was going to post a listing of some research for you, but I wouldn't know where to start. The beneficial effects of isoflavones are supported by an overwhelming set of studies (some will be rightly disputed, but a great chunk of it is good). Run a search at your local library in an academic database or a local university. If you are in New York state, you can also use the NOVEL databases with your driver's license as password. Go to the New York State Library's website to access them. It should more than satisfy you. I haven't found any studies that actually produced results that hold up under scrutiny in terms of health problems in those not allergic. I tried very hard for a friend who *is* a member of the Weston A. Price Foundation while I was employed at an academic library. Phytoestrogens are not estrogens. They are chemically similar and marketed by unregulated supplement manufacturers for menopausal women...often with no real effects there either. Read the research on the topic. Again, there is a huge amount out there. The only conclusive biological research is that which rules out a claim, not that which supports it. Non-biased is very easy. Any double blind is very tricky to bias without some very odd conclusions that are usually caught in the next issue of the journal by the scientific community. Independent? From who, universities? doctors? soy farmers? Research is research. If the study is well contrived, it will float. If it isn't, the community will balk at it, and it will likely not be published. It is very convenient to dismiss any research you see because you imagine that it must have been funded by some special interest. That just isn't how evidence works. It either exists or it doesn't (statistical errors and rehashing via careful manipulation of numbers aside..thus the need for double blinds and the rest of the scientific community). As anyone with a college education in anatomy and physiology would know, estrogens lay down a subcutaneous layer of fat and spur the development of secondary sexual characteristics of women--they are not going to cause male obesity without first making his skin buttery-soft, taking off his body hair and producing breasts! Fertility is not a problem in the US in the levels that it would be if what you say is accurate (my son was conceived on the first try and born on the due date--he'd have been a miscarriage if my wife had taken estrogens). Cognitive function? Read the studies--only one suggested anything there, and it was awfully speculative and produced a rather spurious correlation. Soy oil has been the number one fat in the US since 1953 according to Food Review, Sept-Dec, 1998. I think we'd all be dead, transgendered or idiots if what you say is true. The best test of long term safety is long term use (unfortunately). We live longer than we did then. We have had declining heart disease mortality (deaths from heart disease peaked in the 1950s...when lard was number one over soy until '53). I, personally, don't need a study to interpret that. I don't think I need to mention Japan, do I? They are some of the longest lived people in the world, and they eat far more soy than Americans. I would be out there screaming to any official I could get my hands on if this were all true. I assure you of that! I write letters to politicians and go to demonstrations at the very least when there is a problem. This isn't one of those problems. --Starsapphire 22:34, 22 October 2005 (UTC) Raphael's reply follows--sorry to stick mine in between.


>>>Industry connections? Really, I'm just interested in Wikipedia having a factually accurate article about a commonly eaten, nutrient-rich bean that's been a part of the human diet in many countries for centuries now.

Phytoestrogens are found in other legumes as well, peanuts included. Do you really think that those who consume peanuts are going to become mentally challenged, obese, and infertile? Please, if you have any neutrally-oriented, accurate references with studies that show a significant co-relation between legume consumption and obesity or other health problems in humans, show them.

Granted, if one consumes excessive amounts of fat, like that in soybean oil, one very well could become overweight. It's well-established that overconsumption of calorie-rich foods can cause obesity. The phytoestrogen content of the food does not matter in this respect.

As for studies which show that soybeans can be a healthful addition to one's diet...

"[Dr. Alice] Lichtenstein reported that scientists at FDA, the agency that regulates the health claims that US food manufacturers use to advertise their products, considered more than 20 years' worth of research on soy protein and its effect on blood cholesterol levels. In these studies the effectiveness of soy varied from none to beneficial. However, the most consistent finding was that when people with elevated cholesterol level replaced some of the animal protein in their diet (from meat and dairy foods) with about 25 grams of soy protein (a plant-derived protein), their total and LDL cholesterol levels declined.

In addition to its protein, soy contains compounds called isoflavones that may contribute to heart health as well. The research into these compounds is not yet conclusive, but some studies have suggested that isoflavones help to decrease both total and LDL cholesterol and possibly increase "good" HDL cholesterol levels."

Source: http://www.healthandage.com/default.cfm?framedef=1&curr_navi=02&curr_content=02&curr_page=1&content_action=dsp_haadetail&curr_paramlist=healthandage;861;2;haa_submissiondate;2;1;3;&CFID=1262212&CFTOKEN=59694171

While as the excerpt states, research into the effect of isoflavones on heart health are not "conclusive", much nutritional research is not. Still, one would be much more hard-pressed to find definitive evidence that moderate consumption of soybeans carries any health risks whatsoever for non-allergic individuals. Ralphael 18:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


Doesn't this section seem relatively biased (and in some parts, almost ridiculous)? I have some doubts that the soybean can be legitimately considered a "highly toxic" legume, considering millions of people consume it daily without adverse health effects; if I'm not mistaken, highly toxic implies consumption could be very dangerous, or even fatal. Ralphael 20:12, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I have encountered much of this language before. None of it has ever panned out. It is largely the sort of nonsense peddled by the Weston Price Foundation (www.westonaprice.org) and Dr. Joseph Mercola (mercola.com). I've been trying to substantiate their rather loud claims for six months with literature reviews. They vastly distort research to (in the case of Mercola) sell competing products. Their ideas are becoming very popular in holistic health circles right now. I imagine it will flood wikipedia in the coming months. Watch the articles on refined sugar, pasteurized milk, fatty acids and anything about flour. I can't even find the 'research' source of the claims in the health warnings section. They are pretty far out there. I am not sure what the most appropriate response is within wikipedia, being new. I could write a new section with some actual citations. Note that the only cited reference in this section denies the author credibility (possibly inserted by someone else). The folks I've confronted who believe this sort of stuff have justified this sort of reinterpreting of evidence to me by way of channeled writings about aliens enslaving us through grains...I'm not kidding. It isn't impartial nor is it going to go away, in my opinion. On the other hand, it is an opinion some people hold. --Starsapphire 03:47, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I went ahead and edited the section in question; hopefully now it's more NPOV and factual. If you can see any way to improve it though, definitely go ahead. Ralphael 19:03, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

It is much better, thank you. On the other hand, the aluminum in soy issue apparently is related to the production of soy infant formula. Journal of the American Dietetic Association. July 2003 v103 i7 pS4(2) is a Q&A format article intended to describe recent consensus on the issue. Apparently, aluminum is constantly all around us, but it is in higher concentrations in certain drugs (like antacids) and soy infant formula because of the processing it undergoes. The amount in the formula is only 25% of the the upper tolerances of aluminum for humans. That means that it is not considered a contraindication for use in infants whose parents are unable to breast feed and are vegan or for truely lactose intolerant infants. I noted that the citation at the bottom for dangers of soy is Sally Fallon and Mary Enig...both Weston A. Price Foundation members who advocate radical changes to the diet such as consuming nearly 50% of one's energy as saturated fats (from their cookbook..have to check the title). We are talking about opinions that are so far outside normal science and medicine that it is astonishing (Mary Enig's research is almost entirely on coconut oils for some reason...usually trying to make it sound like a panacea). They want a ban on soy infant formula (I suppose that lactose intolerant infants can find alternatives or die). They refer to sugar as a poison (again, fear mongering with overly strong words). They are also getting lots of voice because they are a noisy, tiny fringe. Chiropractors and others are now starting to get on that bandwagon. Funny, nutritionists aren't. Only one article in the Lancet from 1985 supports their ideas on soy infant formula (all over the internet now), and it was admitted to be mistaken by the authors of the study. Apparently, also from the same ADA article above, the Hawaii study sounds terribly flawed. It only showed that congnitive function was more likely to be impared in men who ate tofu regularly than those who did not. This really doesn't demonstrate a thing other than the exact previous sentence. In fact, the same may not be true of another country or even town. It certainly is not a causal connection. Also, apparently soy milk (precursor to tofu) is only twice as high in aluminum as cow milk. That wouldn't be a significant amount, nor all that likely to cause an effect because of aluminum (compared to the huge dose in antacids--which may have had some health effect after prolonged usage). What I'm saying is that all this is VERY speculative and perhaps should be framed as such. I certainly can't say if it is wrong. It just isn't all supported by the facts. Aluminum is considered scary because of very speculative research in 2000 that linked it to congnitive problems--but it is in most of your food naturally no matter what it is cooked in. BTW, the Bowman-Birk soy protease inhibitor is being evaluated as a potential cancer preventative. Do you see why I say it's all speculative? Maybe I'll toy with the wording this weekend. I want to give respect to the opinions of others while pointing out that this is a very unusual set of conclusions. --Starsapphire 03:18, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, someone altered the recent edits only hours after I made them, adding a >lot< of dubious claims; once again, I'll try and fix them, and I'll start watching the article from now on. I certainly agree with respecting the opinions of others and providing a fair, accurate article, but altering this section with hypotheses that have little verifiable evidence is pushing it, especially ones that basically say the soybean is "dangerous" or unfit for human consumption. Ralphael 19:42, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I did post some PubMed links to research on soy dangers a long time ago, see below. Some are reviews, I think one relatively positive and one more tentative, so that should be helpful. I still haven't gotten to reading them myself (sorry!), but you might check them out if you haven't. It would be nice to incorporate some specific citations into contentious points of the main article as this might make it more immune to outlandish vandalism. --Chinasaur 21:23, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I also draw your attention to Fermented soy products, where someone has apparently tried to create an article solely to bash soy. I "fixed" it, by blanking most of the page, but I didn't list it on VfD yet as it seems like it is actually kind of a useful list to have going. "Fermented soy products" was originally redlinked from the Macrobiotics page, so there is some interest in having this article. I assume the soy basher found the redlink and decided to write his own version and that's where things got ugly. --Chinasaur 21:37, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

When did this become an anti soybean article? It needs some serious reworking, the negative information about soy needs to be moved to an article called "Critcism of soybeans Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 06:34, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I'll assume it's some new hip joke to find a boring article and claim it's controversial.. yes yes, very funny. Let me know if this humour thing pans out for you. In the mean time, I have de-disputed the article. TastyCakes 16:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

The anti-soybean material has been made so it doesnt display with "<!==", yet it is still in the body of the article. Its no joke. Maybe its time to move ir to its own page

Ah, I see. Is that stuff all bunk or is some of it legitimate? Criticism of soybeans seems like a pretty specialized subject to have it's own entry.. Couldn't we just remove all the stuff that isn't backed up with reasonable sources? TastyCakes 21:05, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Poor Grammar

Having just read the soybean article I don't find poor grammar or much that would be considered unobjective. What does the soy article have to do with MSG? It makes no claims about MSG.

Then what the hell is meant by: It is never correct to say "bean" when you mean to say, soybean, just as it is never correct to say "dirt" when you mean to say soil.
Being new here, I'm sure there are better phrases than "what the hell", but nonetheless, I'm in more sure that the original sentence must be contrary some documented wiki explantion (that someone whose been here longer can quote), ie what wikipedia is and isn't. I'm pretty sure we're not what you can and cannot call a soybean, and using analogies in encyclopedic entries. So I took the sentence out. JamieJones 02:15, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the word "Soy"

This article claims soy comes from Japanese shoyu, but which in turn comes from Chinese "Soy yu".

What are the sources of these two claims? I find it unlikely that the Japanese word would be the source because it would not be pronounced much like 'soy' is in English, while the Chinese might be (I don't know any Chinese, only some Japanese). Perhaps I'll try to track them down, but if anyone else cares to... --Starsapphire 03:51, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

from the American Heritage Dictionary online (for purposes of this discussion only and not to be directly pasted into an article since it would be copyvio):
"ETYMOLOGY: Dutch soja, soya, from Japanese shyu, from Chinese (Mandarin) jiàngyóu, soy sauce : jiàng, soy paste + yóu, sauce."

-- WormRunner | Talk 03:58, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you so much! That makes much more sense to me. --Starsapphire 02:31, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
The Cantonese name of soy sauce should be considered as an origin of the word: 豉油 (si6 yau4) --Kvasir 20:50, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] America still largest producer?

I think I heard on the news the other day that Brazil surpassed America in soy production last year, which contradicts this article. Has anyone else seen data on this? TastyCakes 22:56, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

According to link The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, the United States produced 85,740,952 MT of soybeans while Brazil only produced 49,205,268 MT in 2004. That satisfies me that the article has it right. --Starsapphire 04:08, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I think what you (tastycakes) think about is export. Brazil is closing in on the US as the worlds largest exporter of soybeans. According to FAO, the USA export in 2004 was 25 602 609 metric tonnes, while Brazil exported 19 247 690 MT. -Veldho

could be... TastyCakes 00:47, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Prophet Hates Soy

The entire "caveat" section is highly reminicent of this: The Dangers of Soy: Advertising and Your Health Call me skeptical, but I doubt islamonline.net does the world's best research.

I agree - this seems to violate NPOV. One of the most negative articles about soybeans I've ever read.

Agreed. The poor grammar alone made me suspicious before I read the talk page. Any obvious refutations of the "caveat" in biological or agricultural literature? --150.135.183.15 03:17, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The claim that MSG is a potent neurotoxin is pretty laughable. Other than that I'm not sure but I will try to check it out. PubMed ought to give us some answers. The main argument that soy milk is not appropriate for infants I have definitely heard before, but I actually dunno if it's right or not. The stuff about cancer rates in Asia is also at least partly correct... --Chinasaur 07:42, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The islamonline site has this as one of its references. But this article makes it pretty clear that soy is not the problem with this infant formula. Hmmm, I'm not sure that discrediting islamonline will clear up the caveats section of this article. Unless we're sure that's where these caveats came from? --Chinasaur 07:50, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here's a recent study that appears to debunk the claims in the caveats section. I will comment out the caveats section now. But we should add a sectio to the article addressing the history of sensationalism around infant soy formulae. PMID 15113975
Another study with no negative effects of soy: PMID 15294661. But here is a review claiming more studies are needed: PMID 15189112
This article looks like it has been cleaned up, so I'm going to remove the POV tag. --CVaneg 21:21, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Taxonomy

I thought we decided to keep the taxonomy simple in the table with only unsing sub and super taxons to organize children lists? --maveric149, Friday, July 19, 2002

There are *so* many genera in Fabaceae that I'm putting them on subpages, and therefore anyone who follows the Fabaceae link has to know the subfamily to find it. Of course all beans are Faboideae except the coffee bean, the castor bean, and the human bean, but for the other two I'm sure there's a tree not many people know whether is a Caesalpinioidea or a Mimosoidea. -PierreAbbat

Ah, I see there is logic to your madness. :) Although I don't think we should bother writing articles on sub and super taxa when there are so many non-sub/super taxon articles to write. Having these might seem confusing for visitors too (however sub and super taxa are a great way to organize lists -- as you have done). Even without the Faboideae a visitor will still find everything needed in Fabaceae. This will keep the table clean, predictable and easy to use. --maveric149

[edit] Soy complete protein?

So I lift weights on a regular basis. I get a lot of advice from fellow artisans of holding heavy things aloft but I also get advice from people with nutrition and biochemistry degrees who also lift weights; none of them seem to take steroids. They insist that soy is not a complete proten and swear by whey protein supplements. The whey weight lifters do have results to show by where as the vegan/vegetarian weightlifters, while also in excellent shape, are often of the very lean and toned variety and not of the large muscular variety.

So who's right?

Something else occurs to me, too. One of the possible reasons for the difference between vegan and non-vegan weightlifters is perhaps it is an artifact of the two very different subcultures. Most vegans I know are very active outside the gym, enaging in rockclimbing, cycling, etc whereas most weightlifters, myself included, are more sedentary in home life, focusing more on the challenge of weightlifting and bodybuilding or staring at the wall.

Here is an answer to the question of soy being a complete protein from http://web.aces.uiuc.edu/faq/faq.pdl?project_id=5&faq_id=74 :

"Soy protein is a complete source of protein containing adequate quantities of all 9 essential amino acids which are necessary for the building and maintenance of human body tissues (Erdman & Fordyce, 1989). The soybean does not lack sulfur-containing amino acids cysteine and methionine, as some people think. Soybeans are limiting in methionine and cysteine, not lacking. In addition, cysteine is not an essential amino acid. Several years ago the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the World Health Organization (WHO) adapted a new method for evaluating protein quality which is not based on the growth of young rats (as was the old method, the Protein Efficiency Ratio). The new method, called the Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDCAAS), compares the amino acids in a protein with human requirements and adjusts for digestibility. Using this new method of evaluating protein quality, soy was given a score of one (the highest possible) and is now considered to be equivalent to animal protein (Sarwar & McDonough, 1990). Soy protein isolates and concentrates are complete proteins which are well-tolerated and can easily serve as the sole source of protein intake for adults as well as children. (Young, 1994)."

[edit] Hashimoto's Thyroiditis and Soy

recently my sister has been diagnosed with Hashimoto's Thyroiditis which is an autoimmune diesase which results in the inflamation of the thyroid gland (which in turn causes goitre)and hypothyroidism. after doing some reasearch on this we found a link between consuming soy products and this diesease. if anybody has any information on this could you please post it on this page.

[edit] Category

From WP:CG:

An article should not be in both a category and its subcategory, for example Microsoft Office is in Category:Microsoft software, so should not also be in Category:Software. An article with the same name as a category should usually belong only to that category, for instance, Deism belongs only in Category:Deism.

Thus, if this article is in category "soy", and category "soy" is in "food crops" and "beans", then this article should not be in the food crops and beans categories. If you think about it, it does make sense. --DannyWilde 01:45, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] FDA's comments on soy's safety

US FDA says it weighed soy concerns versus benefits By Lisa Richwine

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. health regulators weighed concerns that soy products might be harmful but decided soy's positive effects justified touting its benefits to consumers, a Food and Drug Administration official said Monday.

The agency comment came in response to published remarks from two FDA scientists that eating soy might cause health problems, particularly if given daily to infants in soy milk formulas.

Drs. Daniel Doerge and Daniel Sheehan, the FDA scientists, have spoken to media organizations to warn that infants given soy formula might grow up to develop fertility problems.

They also worry that eating soy regularly might increase the risk of breast cancer in women and brain damage in men. Their most recent comments were published in Britain's Observer newspaper Sunday.

FDA officials considered the scientists' views and those of other critics before announcing last October that they would permit manufacturers to advertise that eating soy could help adults cut their risk of heart disease.

``We are well aware of the concerns, but we did balance those concerns with the other positive effects, an FDA official said in an interview Monday.

The FDA reviewed scientific studies on soy before concluding that adults who consume 25 grams of soy protein per day could see a ``significant lowering of cholesterol, which would lower their risk of heart disease. High cholesterol is a major risk factor for heart disease, the leading killer of Americans.

Critics told the FDA soy could cause harm because it contains a chemical similar to the female hormone, estrogen, that might disrupt normal hormone levels and impair development. Some warned about the possibility of cancer, impaired fertility or thyroid problems.

The FDA said the concerns were not supported by conclusive scientific research. While chemicals in soy do exert hormonal effects, the impact is ``very limited and much lower than that of natural or synthetic estrogens, the FDA said when it announced it would permit the soy health claim.

Concerns that soy infant formula could be harmful were speculative pending the outcome of definitive research, the agency said.

Critics who worry about the effects of soy infant formula recommend that it be used only when no alternatives exist.

A farmer-supported group said Monday concerns about soy's health effects were not new but were not widely held.

``The overwhelming body of published peer-reviewed scientific evidence shows soy has numerous health benefits, said Michael Orso, a spokesman for the United Soybean Board. ^ REUTERS@

17:23 08-14-00

Copyright 2000 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.

[edit] Major cleanup

Did major cleanup. Had some "conflict" with another edit - I hope i preserved the integrity. Didn't change content, just rearranged and organized. JamieJones 15:51, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Done some more cleanup and tidying; removed this quote, which seems rather pointless - MPF:
"It is never correct to say bean when you mean to say, soybean", just as it is never correct to say "dirt" when you mean to say soil (Smith and Circle, 1972).

[edit] 1999 Honolulu Heart Program study: soy has brain atrophy link?

In recent years there has been some concern that consumption of certain soy products may lead to higher likelihood of dementia in the elderly. Primarily this issue was raised by the Honolulu Heart Program, which studied food consumption in Japanese-Americans and isolated a neurological degenerative aging of up to five years to the regular consumption of tofu, with some statistically insignificant suggestion that miso might also be implicated. The results of the study came out in 1999 or 2000.

I don't know where the right place is for a discussion of the above effect, but at the time of the release it was considered quite a bombshell and as such I think it would be negligent to avoid a mention that soy may have adverse cognitive effects, particularly in men. This is not a fluff issue, nor is it a scare of the Mercola or Weston A. Price ilk.

If there's someone who knows where to appropriately cover adverse cognitive effects of soy consumption, I encourage you to add a paragraph or two on the above-mentioned study. The best summary discussion I've found so far is here: Soy: Brain Atrophy Link?. The page is reference-heavy and contains abundant links to journal articles and other discussions.

I'd suggest you take a good, critical look at the rest of Ian Goddard's site before you grow too concerned about soy rotting your brain (in particular, see this). Moreover, the page to which you linked is largely a reposting of a number of Usenet threads, and, as far as I can tell, most of the citations are questionable at best.

[edit] I havent a clue

"Soy based infant formulas with no more than 2.3% protein, from isolated soy protein as the sole source of protein, fortified with vitamins, minerals, lipids, and the amino acid methionine is the equivalent of formulas derived from either cow's milk or soybean flour. Formulas based on isolated protein produce a lower incidence of anal irritation than ones made from soy flour due to the absence of fiber in the former." [1]

If you can tell me in a sentence or two what this was supposed to mean, it can be put back. It looks like it was just a cut and paste from an article. I thinks its trying to tell me what the eqivalent of sot to cow or human milk is and maybe its just worded poorly.

[edit] Soy and health

Sorry if i missed it, but can someone with expertise put up a section about soy and health? Specifically, i'm reading things like Soy Alert and I'm confused/unsure of who to believe. JamieJones talk 12:26, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Health risks

The part commenting on Phytoestrogen in men has two sources, however these sources both require logging in to a password protected site to view them, making them worthless. Other sources need to be found.

I updated the links to more easily accessible sites for both the men and infant formula sources. The NIH sites may require the creation of some sort of profile, however. --Mego2005 14:14, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I found this interesting article (from the UK) and had no idea what Soya was being american. Of course wp's article already had this info. Good job guys! -Ravedave 21:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Calories

It would be nice to know how many calories are in a bushel or ton of soybeans - to gain some perspective on its impact on the world.

It's going to vary, according to cultivar, weather, and soil. Typically, the soybeans grown in the great lakes states range from 30-40% protein and 15-20% oil. A decent yield is 40 60-pound bushel per acre, although that can vary a lot, too. Figuring 35% protein at 4 Calories per gram and 17.5% oil at 9 Calories per gram, you get about 81,000 Calories per bushel. (You know a Calorie is 1000 calories, don't you?) While this might be a hungry world, the real problem is not calories, but protein: kwashiorkor is more of a threat than general starvation.
While soybeans are a high quality protein, meat is far superior to any vegetable product - and soybeans are not well digested by humans. If you toast the soy meal and feed it to chickens, you end up with eggs and chicken meat which IS well digested by humans, and you get lots of fertilizer which helps raise more soybeans. Soybeans are hard on the soil. Yes, they are a legume, and they can fix nitrogen, but only if nitrogen can get at the roots. There's not much fiber produced by raising a crop of soybeans, unlike raising corn or wheat, so the soil keeps getting tougher and tougher. Soil needs a high-fiber diet, too, not just people! There's a lot good that can be said about soybeans, but it's not quite the wonder crop that Henry Ford and Roger Drackett and Harold MacMillan had predicted back in the 1930s. Anyone that is strongly pro-soy or strongly anti-soy just isn't looking at all the facts. ClairSamoht 21:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reduce Cholesterol

The article misrepresents the findings of the research it cites in an attempt to debunk the soybean's effectiveness to improve cardiovascular health.

From the Circulation article[2]

First, we summarize studies that tested soy protein that contained a substantial amount of isoflavones. Because it was recognized that isoflavones could be the bioactive component attributed to soy protein, studies published in the late 1990s and beyond generally stated the amount and type of isoflavones in the soy protein. In 22 randomized trials, isolated soy protein with isoflavones was compared with casein or milk protein,20,30–46 wheat protein,47 or mixed animal proteins.48–50 The range of soy protein was 25 to 135 g/d; the range for isoflavones was 40 to 318 mg. LDL or non-HDL cholesterol concentrations decreased in most studies, statistically significantly in 8, with an overall effect of &3% (weighted average). A recent meta-analysis that included 10 studies published from 1995 to 2002 found a similar percentage reduction in LDL cholesterol with no dose effect.51 Over all studies in Table 1, there is no apparent dose effect; the 8 studies with 50 g of soy protein showed a drop in LDL cholesterol concentration similar to those using a smaller amount of soy, &3% overall (Table 1). This cutpoint for daily soy protein intake, 50 g, defines a large amount, half or more of the daily average total protein intake in the United States. No significant effects were evident for HDL cholesterol or triglycerides in most of the studies; the weighted average effects were very small: 1.5% for HDL cholesterol and –5% for triglycerides.

...

In 7 trials, soy protein, washed with alcohol to remove isoflavones, was compared with casein or milk protein20,33,39,43,52 or various animal proteins (Table 2).49,50 Two studies showed small significant decreases in LDL cholesterol.49,50 These studies were very carefully controlled feeding studies, with all meals formulated according to strict nutritional specifications, and complete meals were provided to the participants.49,50 Specifically designed to sort out the effects of the protein from the effects of the isoflavones, the studies showed an effect of protein but not isoflavones on LDL cholesterol. The declines in LDL cholesterol were small, 2% to 7%, relative to the large amounts of soy protein eaten daily, 50 to 55 g. However, other well-controlled studies did not find significant effects of soy protein on LDL cholesterol,20,33,39,43,52 and the average change across all 7 studies was only a 1% to 2% decrease. Changes in HDL cholesterol and triglycerides were generally small and were nonsignificant in 6 of the 7 trials. No dose effect was evident.

Clearly this study fed subjects soy protein isolates and not whole soy foods. All of the nutrients in isolated protein are removed by heavy mechanical and chemical processing so the beneficial fats, vitamins, minerals, and other phytochemicals of soybeans are not present. This study does not show that whole soy food's benefit to cardiovascular health is in question as the article suggests. The study does show that soy protein alone like you would find as a filler in meat products or as powder in protein shakes has no benefit to cardiovascular health. This is a very important difference and it is irresponsible to misconstrue the findings!

From the conclusion[3]

Earlier research indicating that soy protein, as compared with other proteins, has clinically important favorable effects on LDL cholesterol and other CVD risk factors has not been confirmed by many studies reported during the past 10 years. A very large amount of soy protein, more than half the daily protein intake, may lower LDL cholesterol by a few percentage points when it replaces dairy protein or a mixture of animal proteins. The evidence favors soy protein rather than soy isoflavones as the responsible nutrient. However, at this time, the possibility cannot be ruled out that another component in soybeans could be the active factor. No benefit is evident on HDL cholesterol, triglycerides, lipoprotein(a), or blood pressure. Thus, the direct cardiovascular health benefit of soy protein or isoflavone supplements is minimal at best. Soy protein or isoflavones have not been shown to improve vasomotor symptoms of menopause, and results are mixed with regard to the slowing of postmenopausal bone loss. The efficacy and safety of soy isoflavones for preventing or treating cancer of the breast, endometrium, and prostate are not established; evidence from clinical trials is meager and cautionary with regard to a possible adverse effect. For this reason, use of isoflavone supplements in food or pills is not recommended. In contrast, soy products such as tofu, soy butter, soy nuts, or some soy burgers should be beneficial to cardiovascular and overall health because of their high content of polyunsaturated fats, fiber, vitamins, and minerals and low content of saturated fat118 (Table 4). Using these and other soy foods to replace foods high in animal protein that contain saturated fat and cholesterol may confer benefits to cardiovascular health.119 Soy protein also may be used to increase total dietary protein intake and to reduce carbohydrate or fat intake. However, much less is known about the potential impact of high-protein diets on risk factors for CVD. In the meantime, these remain dynamic areas for research. The AHA will continue to monitor the results and modify its advisory statement as needed.

Clearly the study does not deny that soy foods are beneficial to cardiovascular health. The question is what component of soy foods provides the benefit. In the past researchers have assumed it was only the protein that was beneficial. The Circulation study attempts to test that assumption. While the study failed to show it was the isolated soy protein that was the active nutrient, it did not fail to show that soy foods are beneficial. In fact they have processed and washed away the very soy nutrients they later cite in the conclusion as being beneficial!

The difference between isolated soy proteins and whole soy foods should be made absolutely clear. There is no harm in being more accurate especially when the topic, nutrition and health, is so poorly understood.

[edit] "However, rapeseed/Canola may actually even have a better amino acid profile"

Under Soybean#Nutrition I find the phrase above. Can someone explain why there is a qualification here -- why does it say "may actually"? I think the article could be improved by getting rid of this vaguery or at least putting in some type of clarification. If rapeseed/Canola is better in some ways but worse in others, or whatever case it is, that should be stated explicitly. Kaimiddleton 17:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I have also heard that canola's AA profile is exceptional (and that soy's is over-hyped, for that matter). There must be an analysis or study online somewhere. Frankg 17:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] npov

the "problems" section is very POV. rather than stating the potential problems, someone has come along and just stated why soybeans are perfectly healthy.

Justforasecond 00:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moving unreferenced material from WP:OR

The following section is almost pure OR and POV, and I've removed it to the talk page. Please cite sources. Captainktainer * Talk 16:39, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Genetic modification

Soybeans are one of the "Biotech Food" crops that are being genetically modified, and GMO soybeans are being used in an increasing number of products. Monsanto is the world's leader in genetically modified soy for the commercial market. In 1995, Monsanto introduced "Roundup Ready" (RR) soybeans that have had a complete copy of a gene (plasmid) from the bacteria, Agrobacterium sp. strain CP4, inserted, by means of a gene gun, into its genome that allows the transgenic plant to survive being sprayed by this non-selective, glyphosate-based herbicide. Roundup kills conventional soybeans. RR soybeans allow a farmer to reduce tillage or even to sow the seed directly into an unplowed field, known as 'No Plow' tillage, greatly reducing the soil erosion.

Currently, 81% of all soybeans cultivated for the commercial market are genetically s that depend on them. Concern is also for the high amounts of residual toxin since the herbicide is sprayed on the soy crop repeatedly during growth.

Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) is among the of soybeans and soy products. ADM along with DOW, DuPont and Monsanto to industry and possible financial conflicts of interest. The former USDA Secretary of Agriculture, Daniel Robert Glickman, also

Response to above (that is not signed) Is Glyphosate really that bad for us? I think that it may be a generalization to just say that herbicides are all toxins to humans, also as far as crop treatment goes I would imagine that as soy beans are nearing the end of there maturation, weed growth is pretty heavily suppressed by the fairly dense foliage cover, also does anyone know how the plasmid from agrobacterium works? If it breaks down round up in the plant then the plants products will be safe to eat even if a little glyphosate is dangerous wont they? and anything not taken up by the plant will be taken off as the beans are shelled, and no glyphosate will make it through the cow that eats the majority of the soy. Opcnup 02:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The External Links are all mixed up!

A)

The external links should be clear like this:

"External links"

Favorable

(put favorable links here)

Critical

(put critical links here)


B)

Please find a valid reference for the setences I wrote below and add to the validity of the article.

Soy contains phytoestrogens that mimic estrogen.

Many consumers shop at health food stores and consume high levels of hormone like plant estrogenics that could increase the risk of breast cancer and other types of cancers. (citation needed)

Thank You. -----63.17.125.218 17:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Health food stores and soy

I am an organic consumer who ate large amounts of soy for many years. Now I have had both of my breasts removed. Soy is a very serious issue to me.

The increase in soy consumption has been popularized by natural food companies and the soy industry's aggrassive marketing campaign in various magazines, tv ads, and in the health food markets. However, it would be beneficial to have more research into the safety of consuming an increased diet in plant estrogenics due to the fact that soy acts more like a drug (hormone replacement estrogenic drugs) than a food.

Thanks, 63.17.97.20 20:33, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


I know it is highly relevant to explain about the health food stores and soy for the critism section. 63.17.97.20 21:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Health food stores and soy.

Yes, I agree.

It is extremely relevant to explain about the agrassive marketing campaign of corporations and the soy industry. Perhaps expanding the information about this important subjuct would be necessary.

Soy has been marketed by industry despite the fact that soy contains phytoestrogens that mimicks hormones. --MagicOracle 16:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference for reduction in risk of colon cancer

In updating the reference in the "Vitamins and minerals" section, the following page was not found: http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/11/3778S There is not a "Journal of Environmental Nutrition" and there are 34 results when searching on nutrition.org for "soy colon cancer" in 2004 - does anyone have the correct citation? I have removed the reference for now. Original text:

"The Journal of Environmental Nutrition (April 2004 volume 27 issue  [4] also indicates that it may reduce the risk of colon cancer."

--apers0n 08:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soy is NOT a complete source of Protein.

The article wrongly states soy is a complete protein source along with other POV sentences. >>> Soybeans are a source of complete protein. <<<

This sentence along with other sentences are misinformation propagated by the soy industry.

Here is yet another POV sentence below that is in the article right now. Yes, there is obfuscation here.

>>> However, rapeseed/canola may actually even have a better amino acid profile than soy protein. <<<

"63.17.51.115 22:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)"

This really doesn't have to be an edit war. Firstly, what is meant by the term 'complete protein'. Supposedly it means containing all 8/9 essential amino acids, but actually many (most?) foods do, what differs is the levels of the amino acids. So there is really no such line, in science, as 'complete/incomplete', it's more of a marketing term, or a simplistic description of 'very good', which is inherently POV.
The three ways of measuring are more useful. Unfortunately, the article is swinging between claiming that PDCAAS and Biological Value are the 'best'. How about some simple, neutrally stated descriptions of soys results in both tests, rather than the bashing going on here now. Greenman 10:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello Greenman,

Whole eggs (BV 100) and Whey Isolate (BV 104) are complete proteins.

Soy is lacking in high levels essential branched chained amino acids.

That is why soy has a lower BV of 74. Saying soy is a complete protein is very misleading and inaccurate.

The BV is more accurate and most importantly relevant.

Biological Value of protein is a scientific term.

The PDCAAS and PER are not accurate especially when compared to the BV method.

The facts speak for themselves. Reference 1 Reference 2 Reference 3 --Messenger2010 19:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Soy is lacking in high levels essential branched chained amino acids. This does not show that soy is an incomplete protein. And in fact soy is a complete protein, according to these sources [5], [6]. Yankees76 01:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Greetings Great Greenman,

I agree with Greenman (even though Yankee76 completely disagrees with Greenman at every level.)

When Greenman wrote.....

So there is really no such line, in science, as 'complete/incomplete', it's more of a marketing term, or a simplistic description of 'very good', which is inherently POV. .....I completely agree.

I would really appreciate you, Greenman, adding your information to the article to fix the POV (non-scientific info which POV).

Complete protein is just a marketing term as noted by Greenman. It is not science saying soy is a complete protein. We are dealing with an encyclopedia. Those references by Yankees76 are about POV.

Greenman's great sentence and insight is on the ball despite Yankee76s objections! 63.17.78.66 01:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but you're posting Strawman arguments, because I've not said or insinuated anything of the sort. Stop Wikistalking me. Yankees76 01:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


Soy is a complete protein according to this data: http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20gH.html . --150.203.41.19 05:12, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Complete Proteins

As far as I can see, there is no unambiguous definition of "complete protein" that is agreed to by the scientific community. I think all references to claims of soy being "complete" or "incomplete" should be removed as it is a very subjective term which differs from one scientist to another. Instead of claiming that it is complete or incomplete, it's much better to simply state how much of each essential amino acid soy contains. The above link by 150.203.41.19 to http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20gH.html clearly states how much methionine and cystine one cup (256 g) of raw green soybeans contains, namely, 402 mg of methionine and 302 mg of cystine. So just put easily measurable facts into the article, rather than subjective ideas of "completeness". Humanoid 07:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

There are numerous verifiable sources that state soy protein is a complete protein - the strongest being the FDA [7][8][9] [10]. As a side note, the US National Library of Medicine and National Institutes of Health states that "If the protein in a food supplies enough of the essential amino acids, it is called a complete protein. If the protein of a food does not supply all the essential amino acids, it is called an incomplete protein." According to Protein Technologies International. Soy Protein and Health: Discovering a Role for Soy Protein in the Fight Against Coronary Heart Disease. Houston, Tex: Marimac Communications; 1996., "Soy protein contains all of the essential amino acids in sufficient quantities to support human life" The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth - please review WP:V. Thanks. Yankees76 17:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how anything in this paragraph contradicts what I said. I don't doubt that there are many scientists or organizations that will label soybean to be a source of "complete protein". What I'm saying is that "complete protein" is an ambiguous definition, which nobody can agree to. Your quote above says: "If the protein in a food supplies enough of the essential amino acids..."... the key word here is 'enough'. 'Enough' is an ambiguous word that needs to be disambiguated in order for the definition to be precise. Do you think 'enough' is unambiguous? Arguing about whether soybean is a source of "complete protein" or not is like arguing about whether or not Superman was a long movie. It's a pointless thing to do, some people will find that it is, and others will find that it is not. Just specify the length of the Superman movie, ie., the facts, rather than saying that "it's a long movie". In the same way, just specify the amount of each essential amino acid in soybeans, rather than saying that "it's a very good protein". If you do that, there will be no more pointless arguments. Humanoid 16:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is what I suggest should be put into the article:
A cup of raw green soybeans of 256g, has the following amount of amino acids:

Total protein 33.2 g
Tryptophan 402 mg
Threonine 1321 mg
... ...

Because of these values, most people call the soybean a complete protein. [11][12][13] [14].
You can fill in the rest of the values in the table. So instead of saying X, I'm saying that many people say X, include the references you gave above, and provided the raw numbers so that people can see for themselves why claiming X makes a lot of sense. Humanoid 16:48, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Gotcha - slight misunderstanding on my part of your first post. Your proposal sounds solid to me. Yankees76 18:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Rules -- we must obey to the literal letter.

This sentence below is in the article. It must be verified or anyone can go right ahead and erase at anytime. Hopefully a reference can be found soon or it must be removed.

Consumption of soy may also reduce the risk of colon cancer. ('I really doubt it.')

The policy:

  1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources.
  2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor.
  3. The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.

Best Regards, 63.17.71.251 04:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soy / Colon Cancer

I have been looking over the Wikipedia "Soy-Scandal," and as to the last comment relating to whether it is linked to reducing risks of Colon Cancer, and have found an article suggesting so. In no way do I know whether this source is even reliable,as I am not a scientist. However, I would urge someone to kindly examine the source and content, and see whether it would be a good citation or not. Please do examine this: [15], and I would be delighted if you would be kind enough to also leave a reply/link on my talk page. Thanks! User_talk:Bhaveer

In the section "Vitamins and minerals" please add the following text so that the sentence reads:
Consumption of soy may also reduce the risk of [[colon cancer]], possibly due to the presence of [[sphingolipid]]s.<ref>{{cite journal | author = Symolon H, Schmelz E, Dillehay D, Merrill A | title = Dietary soy sphingolipids suppress tumorigenesis and gene expression in 1,2-dimethylhydrazine-treated CF1 mice and ApcMin/+ mice. | journal = J Nutr | volume = 134 | issue = 5 | pages = 1157-61 | year = 2004 | id = PMID 15113963 | url = http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/5/1157 }}</ref>
--apers0n 09:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Done. NCurse work 15:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrites/Awkward Sentences, References

After reading through the article, I noticed a few odd things.

However, the phrase complete protein can be a bit misleading since proteins vary in their protein values. Whole eggs have a biological value of 100 versus a 74 for soy. Soy protein is similar to that of other legume seeds, but has the highest yield per square meter of growing area, and is the least expensive source of dietary protein.

Where does whole eggs and biological value fit in? The train of though goes from saying proteins vary in their protein values, then goes off on a tangent about eggs compared to soy, and then back to another unreleated sentenece about legume seeds and growing area. It appears some text was shoehorned in here. (rewrite suggested)

BV is likely the better formula used when calculating protein for muscle growth and synthesis in humans. The scientific method for measuring protein is the biological value methodology which is an accurate indicator of biological activity for protein quality and utilization in humans.[8][9][10][11][12][13][14]

Again it appears that text was shoehorned into the article - it seems out of context because there is no mention about muscle growth and synthesis anywhere esle in the article. I'll also contend that the scientific method for measuring protein is not just BV - many methods can be considered scientific - and BV isn't an official method used by any regulatory body. This whole paragraph belongs in a protein article - it doesn't really fit in. Also some of the references appear to be out of date, foreign language or missing information (the Hegsted citation is missing a publication, year and page #) . (major rewrite, reference verification and better segway into the BV table below is suggested)

Suggestions? (from someone who isn't a sockpuppet please). Yankees76 14:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, I think that the first section should be rewritten to sound something more like this:
"The phrase 'complete protein' is not entirely agreed-upon in usage by the scientific community. One measure of a protein's use in nutrition is the Biological Value scale. Soy has a BV rating of 74, as compared to the rating of 100 for whole eggs, or XXXX for (other protein source with a lower BV rating) [citation needed] . Soy protein is similar to that of other legume seeds, but has the highest yield per square meter of growing area, and is the least expensive source of dietary protein."
As for the second paragraph, it makes a value judgement, which must be left out or sourced to a reliable source; for example, "According to Dr. Researcher, Biological Value is the better formula when calculating...". The article narrative voice is not allowed to make value statements, unsourced assertions that are not common knowledge, or anything like that, as prohibited by WP:OR. --Kuzaar-T-C- 16:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gay Soybeans?

Soybeans can make you gay? (NOTE: NOT A JOKE, AT LEAST NOT BY ME, MAYBE BY THE GUY THAT WROTE THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE)

I have updated the page to reflect this article and references. Mcas 19:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

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