Talk:South Ossetian independence referendum, 2006

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[edit] Referendum's legality

Even though South Ossetia is an unrecognized state, its people are not excepted from the right to self-determination, a fundamental principle of the human rights law. Óðinn 19:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

It is not up to us to decide. Let's stick to the facts. Territorial integrity and state soveregnity vs the ill-defined right to self-determination are major problems in the modern world's politics. Anyway, neither you nor me are competent to pronounce on this, are we? --Kober 20:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Ill-defined? I quoted from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights - a document produced and approved by the UN, which Georgia was still a member of the last time I checked. Óðinn 20:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Nobody recognizes their "independence", "referendum" or self proclaimed presidents, etc. To become a state, there are tons of procedures and guidelines under international law which have to be complied by all who want to be an independent country. Secondly, there is 40% Georgian ethnic factor in that region. Also, international community has seen clearly that this is a process of annexation of s. Ossetia by Russia rather than strive for "independence". BTW the proclamation of human rights are well defined in UN however, they still maintain hard stance on the territorial integrity of Georgia in respects with all kinds of laws which have to do with international borders, territorial integrity and human rights. There are thousands of ethnic minorities in Europe and they can hold as many referendums as they wish, however it does not mean that they can surpass international law. Ldingley 20:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Thirdly, nobody will recognize or consider an aggressive separatist regime which only uses means of aggressive militarism and terrorism (latest helicopter incident) to achieve its goals. Latest statements by OSCE can conform the anger and frustration of west. Ldingley

You seem to beleive that "the west" and "international community" are synonimous. They aren't. Oh, and could you direct me to the procedures and guidelines for creating an independent state, please? Óðinn 20:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Here read this article State,List of unrecognized countries and UN resolutions. In Chechnya for example referendum was held democratically with democratically elected President maskadov (who was recognized even by Russia), but your countryman slaughtered them in thousands and bombed their capital which looks like 1945 Berlin. Double standards, double standards… You should create your own country in Toronto or Mississauga. Especially in China Town. If you hold a referendum there, maybe you can get another Democratic Republic of China. Joke :) Adios Amigo. Ldingley 20:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I've obviously seen that article, since I linked it to the South Ossetian referendum page. You claim that the in order for a a state to be independent, much more conditions must be met than a referendum conducted in a democratic fashion. So, what are they? Maskhadov was indeed more or less democratically elected. Hovewer, Ichkeria decided to invade Dagestan in 1999. And faced the consequences. Furthermore, the Chechen republic had an independence referendum a few years ago. They decided to stay as the subject of the Russian Federation. Grozny is being rapidly rebuilt, btw. Óðinn 21:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Even though nobody believes in the results of the recent Chechnya referendum, the poll was authorized by the central Russian government while S. Ossetian referendum is not legalized by the Georgian government, a subject of the international law and the only legal authority recognized by the World on the territory of the self-styled republic. Of course, "West" doesn't mean "international community," but do you know any "eastern" country which recognizes Kokoity’s regime? You seem to have only remote knowledge about the situation in S. Ossetia if you believe that it is possible to hold a democratic referendum in this smugglers' paradise. A large Georgian population will obviously boycott the polls. Furthermore, Kokoity and his gang are not very popular among the Ossetians (I know this from my Ossetian neighbors in Tbilisi who have relatives in Tskhinvali) and the separatists will have nothing to do but to rig the elections and stage a series of provocations so as to induce Georgia's harsh response and then illustrate themselves as the "only saviors of the Ossetian people against the Georgian aggression".--Kober 04:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

What is it with people claiming to speak for everyone... "Nobody beleives"... Also, please refrain from making any assumptions about my knowledge of the subject. You don't know me. And the situation in South Ossetia is far better than that in Kosovo, which is very likely to have an independence referendum this or early next year. Which of course will be hailed as higly democratic and timely by "the West", despited not being authorized by the central Serbian government. Óðinn 16:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Could you please tell me in which way the situation in S. Ossetia is better than that in Kosovo? Is the former region wealthier? Is it more democratic? Is is better because Kokoity is supported by Russia, and Kosovo by NATO? Are the Russian "peacekeepers" better than the UN Kosovo Force?

And please note the background of the conflicts in S. Ossetia and Kosovo (and even Abkhazia) are quite different. --Kober 17:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

South Ossetia is not the Europes's narcotics, money laundering, and sex slaves trade hub. Kosovo is. The remaining Serbs of Kosovo are risking their lives every day just being there. The KFOR, which is supposed to protect them, is mostly busy protecting themselves. The sheer amount of churches and monasteries torched and razed by the Albanians since the end of the campaign of "humanitarian bombing" is astonishing. South Ossetian Georgians are not quite that opressed, are they? So yes, the peacekeepers, who also consist of Ossetians and Georgians - as you are well aware, are doing a better job. Óðinn 06:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Georgian peacekeeping forces indeed do a good job, their principal duty being to protect Georgian villages. As for the Russian forces they do nothing but provide military support for the separatist regime and benefit from smuggling. And I hope you don't believe in that "qaudripartite" absurd. There are only two sides there, and I think you know it perfectly well. --Kober 07:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't, actually. And yes. it's not quadripartite - more like tripartite. Óðinn 07:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

If somebody says that Kosovo is relted to S Ossethia and Abkhazia, they are totally off the point. Serbians invaded and attempted ethnic cleansing of Albanians from Kosovo, but we don't want the same thing. We just want our ethnically cleansed Georgians to go back home and live peacefully with Ossethians and Abkhazians. That's why we have internationl support from all the international organizations and Kokoity better stop shooting people in Ossethia, before he regrets it. Sosomk 22:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Uh-huh, the Serbs invaded their own province, the cradle of their civilization. As for your support - try solving those conflicts by force and watch how quickly you'll lose it. Óðinn 06:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I hope you are not going to prove that what is now S Ossetia was not part of Georgian civilization. Ossetians and Georgians still go together to pray in churches built by the Georgian kings and princes in the early Middle Ages when Alans had their own kingdom and civilization north to the Caucasus Mountains. As for using force and losing territories, it depends on the extent to which Mother Russia interferes in Georgia's affairs. Kober 06:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

My knowledge of the ancienet Georgian history is rudimentary, so I'll take you word for it. I'll even agree that the oridinary Ossetians and Georgians get along quite well. Nevertheless, there is no way Ossetians will submit to the authority of your government. Especially know, considering the kinds of people that are in charge. The entire concept of diplomacy seems to be foreign to them... As for the Russian involvment... If the Georgian government chooses to be a tool of the American interests, it has to realize that there will be repercussions. Even though nobody in the Russian government even bothers to respons to Saakashvili's daily hysteria, rest assured that remarks such as "Russia is like a barbarous tribe of Huns" do not go unnoticed. He is is looking for reasons of his troubles anywhere except for his own country. Which will bring him nowhere. Except for a bad end. Óðinn 06:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

You comment above reflects nothing but neoimperialistic ambitions and Cold War mentality. Just give me ONE source quoting Saakashvili's remark about Huns. Have you ever asked yourself why Georgia chose the US as her ally? And I think this discussion is pretty useless and is not supposed to improve the encyclopedic content. Let's stop it.--Kober 06:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

As you wish. Here is your source: http://www.regnum.ru/english/700884.html Óðinn 06:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What's the deal?

What's the deal with the international community not recognizing the de-facto independent states (Northern Cyprus,Transnistria,South Ossetia,Abkhazia)?Can anybody explain such a phenomenon?Dimts 11:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

For Turkish-occupied North Cyprus, it's the same reason the international community doesn't recognize the Israeli-occupied West Bank: Because invasion and occupation is not recognized under international law. --Delirium 13:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

That can't be the only issue; the international community generally recognizes Western Sahara as part of Morocco, and recognized East Timor as part of Indonesia, Tibet as part of China... invasion and occupation have been repeatedly recognized throughout recent history. --Golbez 21:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation.Dimts 14:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The so-called international community, which is really composed of mostly Western states, has a peculiar opinion when it comes to independence-seeking entities. There are "good" candidates like Kosovo, and there are bad ones like South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Transnistria. And the decision to put a state in either category is purely political. Óðinn 03:02, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Results

So.. do we have any results? --Golbez 18:27, 18 November 2006 (UTC)