Talk:Soured milk
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Avoid non-English titles, especially those with characters not found on the keyboards of English-speaking countries; this is the English Wikipedia, after all. Do not claim a general Nordic food as exclusively Swedish. --Vuo 22:08, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
- "Sour milk" is not an English term for filmjölk. "Sour milk" is simply milk that have gone bad. Please do not try to directly translate terms that deserve their own articles. If we can have crème fraîche we can certainly have a seperate filmjölk. Please stop trying to make pseudo-translations of terms that don't have any proper equivalent in English.
- Peter Isotalo 21:59, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
- What leads you to think it's a made-up translation? Dictionaries, e.g. [1], translate it "sour milk" or "sour whole milk". It has an equivalent in English, and it's sour milk. --Vuo 23:53, 23 May 2005 (UTC) Addition: Another fact you should note is that if unprocessed milk is simply kept in room temperature for a few days, it turns into sour milk all by itself, because it contains the Lactobacilli already. This is why it's called "sour milk" in English. There's no "soured milk"; that, if anything, is a made-up translation. Moreover, English does not distinguish transitivity, so there's no essential change in meaning between "sour" and "soured" in this context. But, modern pasteurized milk doesn't ferment, but rots. This leads people to believe the "souring" is intentional.
- Well, I think you need to brush up on your English skills, then. Because Dictionary.com combined with a simple googling confirms the usage by native English speakers. I also suggest you read the definitions of sour. Please note the meaning is mainly "acidic" or "rancid". The difference is more than just a subtlety.
- The modern process of souring milk (notice the verb?) is done after pasteurization and is therefor the most relevant. I'm moving the article to soured milk. If you disagree, please try to support your argumentation with a minimum of references.
- Peter Isotalo 23:01, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
- What leads you to think it's a made-up translation? Dictionaries, e.g. [1], translate it "sour milk" or "sour whole milk". It has an equivalent in English, and it's sour milk. --Vuo 23:53, 23 May 2005 (UTC) Addition: Another fact you should note is that if unprocessed milk is simply kept in room temperature for a few days, it turns into sour milk all by itself, because it contains the Lactobacilli already. This is why it's called "sour milk" in English. There's no "soured milk"; that, if anything, is a made-up translation. Moreover, English does not distinguish transitivity, so there's no essential change in meaning between "sour" and "soured" in this context. But, modern pasteurized milk doesn't ferment, but rots. This leads people to believe the "souring" is intentional.
- Vuo, it seams you moved the page to sour milk and "vandalised" it in an attempt to make it more international. But you should know that in english "sour milk" mainly means milk gone bad. And if you spell it "soured milk" it means any kind of fermented milk including yoghurt, kephir and so on. (Note the difference between sour and soured!)
- This page is about the products sold under the different "fil" names and how we eat them in Sweden and so on. The page was started out due to a red link in the page Cuisine of Sweden and for instance hopefully can be of aid to foreigners travelling to Sweden. (And any one else curious about the Cuisine of Sweden.) I think it would be silly to only write informative articles about Swedish food directed to foreigners in Swedish and place them on the Swedish wikipeda. I don't demand that tourists study Swedish before they travel to Sweden. (Something which seems to be a common demand in Finland. Damn you if you try to buy a tram/trolley ticket in Helsinki and don't speak Finnish.) It was not and is not my intention to claim it to be a Swedish "invention". Filmjölk probably was invented/discovered many thousands of years ago, long before Sweden became Sweden, and perhaps even before any humans moved to Sweden!
- There is no such thing as an "international" filmjölk. If you want to write an article about soured milk in general, then you should remember that it includes yoghurt and kephir etc. And note that in many other countries soured milks such as yoghurt and kephir are sold pasteurised which means your internationalisation of the paragraphs about bacterias sold alive is plain wrong.
- If you want to write an article about the similar product you have in Finland and how you prefer to eat it there, then do so and put under it's proper name (which I guess would be piimä / piima). And of course link to it from Cuisine of Finland.
- Regarding use of "non english" characters: For the convenience of people who don't know how to make an ö on their keyboard I allready had a redirect from Filmjolk. Just like is the case with the article on the finnish malt porridge Mämmi / Mammi.
- Regarding the bacterias used in filmjölk: I intentially avoided mentioning which bacterias are used since in Sweden fil is sold with MANY different kinds of bacterias, not all even being of the same family as the original filmjölk bacterias. And new types of bacterias are being added all the time. For instance right now genetically modified bacterias that produces medicines are going through the tests for being allowed to be sold as medicin. And that medicin is intended to be sold under some kind of "fil" name and eaten just like we are used to eat fil...
- So I reinstated the original article about filmjölk and I suggest you keep away from it. How would you feel if I as a Swede went berserk on the pages about Cuisine of Finland?
- --Davidgothberg 01:16, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
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- This response is very inappropriate, and I have adressed it more thoroughly at talk:filmjölk. Please try to keep the tone civil even when disputing claims.
- Peter Isotalo 23:27, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
The scope of this article seems a bit badly defined. The article mentions several different types of milk products (fil/viili, buttermilk/piimä/kärnmjölk, plus "soured whole milk" which I have no clue what it is - possibly långfil in Swedish? As the common denominator the Lactobacillus is mentioned, but are those not present in other milk products over the world? My guess is the Nordic countries all have similar fil/viili products. If that is the scope of the article but we shouldn't include piimä there since it's historically made very differently (check buttermilk). Is there a general page on soured milk products from all over the world, defining differences and similarities? If not (and I can not find one) then maybe that would be a suitable scope of an article. / Habj 03:05, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] ew
what horrible writing... *bookmark for later* Blueaster 20:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
