Template talk:Socialism

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Contents 1 Regarding Socialism or socialism? 2 Red flower 3 Possible Omission? 4 Entry points 5 Should mixed economy be included 6 revert of additions 7 Nazism 8 Revolutionary Socialism 9 Organisation 9.1 Start over 10 Cultural Aspects 11 Utopian Socialism 12 Politics portal & List of socialist ideas

[edit] Regarding Socialism or socialism?

I was just wondering, should Socialism itself be with a capital S? Proper noun right? Meanwhile socialist and social are just common noun and adjective respectively? Perhap's all the *** of socialism articles should be moved to *** of Socialism.

Wikipedia has a well-established policy on this, unless it is a proper noun (i.e a location, person or organization) it is always lowercase, see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization). Lexor|Talk July 2, 2005 11:01 (UTC)

[edit] Red flower

Most socialist parties use that as the symbol. Don't worry about the copyright, I reckon its fitting for public use.

Most social democratic parties use that as a symbol. But it is not representative of all the branches of socialism. I would suggest a red flag. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:01, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Omission?

Is there a reason why Democratic socialism isn't included in the list? This box appears on that article, and it seems to be topically related. Thesquire 10:45, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Entry points

See Ideology#Political_ideologies – Kaihsu 19:32, 2005 May 16 (UTC)

[edit] Should mixed economy be included

RJII seems to think that it should be included based on his definition of mixed economy which is a "mix of capitalism and socialism". What do other people think? My source is that none of the definitions in google define it as such with the exception of the Wikipedia article (which is now changed). For reference, the reason RJII seems to want to include this is so that he can put the socialism infobox on the mixed economy page. Perhaps he will let us know if this is not the case. - FrancisTyers 02:47, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

"My" definition is the same as the definition you just put in the mixed economy article: "An economic system that allows for the simultaneous operation of publicly and privately owned enterprises" In socialism, the means of production are publicly owned --in capitalism they're privately owned. When you mix the two together ..tada! A mixed economy! RJII 02:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

In that case, isn't a mixed economy just as capitalist as it is socialist? --AaronS 15:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. It's, in the ideal, one half socialist and one half capitalist. Half of the means of production are privately owned and the other half are socially owned or controlled. "Mixed economy" is in the "liberalism" box (I'm the one that put it there, actually) so it should also be in the socialism box. RJII 03:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Where do you get "half and half"? "Part and part" doesn't mean half and half, since the size of each part is unspecified. You're just making the "ideal" up in your head. And just saying something is "part" socialism hardly merits inclusion here. Find an actual group of socialists that support a mixed economy, and maybe you'll have a case. Sarge Baldy 15:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I put it in the Influences section. If a mixed economy is a mix (doesn't have to be "half and half" --i was just speaking in terms of the ideal) of socialism and capitalism, then obviously it's an influence. RJII 22:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] revert of additions

please discuss removals. Sam Spade 16:21, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nazism

Give a source saying that "nazism is a type of socialism" is a widely-accepted view and you can insert it. -- infinity0 16:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

What does widely accepted have to do w anything? You've seen my sources, and TDC has offered to come up w even more if you need them. Go read Hayek. Sam Spade 16:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Because adding them to a template implies they are widely accepted as that. Usually, we don't put fringe stuff onto a template because there is no space for it - a template only contains important info. YOu are the one trying to add stuff - burden of proof is on you. -- infinity0 16:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Hayek is not an authoritative source on Nazism and Socialism. He's an economist, not a historian or politicla philosopher. -- infinity0 16:29, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Take a look over the list of branches of socialism in the socialism article. There isn't enough room to include all the widely-accepted ones, let alone the controversial ones! We should limit ourselves to those that are both widely accepted and important.

As you can see, Hayek is a political philosopher. -- Vision Thing -- 14:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Nazism isnt a form of socialism and anti-semitism isnt a part of the socialist ideology,so stop putting these terms in. -Red_Bastard-

I really don't understand why Nazism, Facism and Anti-semitism should be included into the list either. I don't believe that any supportor of socialism will be appreciative of it being listed as part of their ideology. Such movements have always been active in Anti-Facism and Anti-Racism campaigns. And I hope an admin can help out here, there's a revert war going right now. --A10203040 14:15, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Both The Middle East Conflict Man and Red Bastard have been blocked for 24 hours. However we have a new POV pusher (or sock puppet) called Carroteater117 over at Socialism. // Liftarn

Sigh..Carroteater117<- pictures of Saddam and Milosovich, smells exactly like The Middle East Conflict Man. --A10203040 16:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revolutionary Socialism

I've temporarily removed the link to Revolutionary Socialism until it's clear that it is significant enough to be mentioned. The article unfortunately seems not to describe revolutionary socialism in general, but the opinion of a very small group. See its talk page (and please join the discussion there if you are knowledgeable in these matters). Qwertyus 23:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Organisation

I alphabetized the lists, so, in the future, if you add or remove something, make sure things are alphabetical. It's a better organisational system than "arbitrary". --Yossarian 04:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Looks strange. "Criticism of socialism" the first Key issue? "Anarchism" above "Marxism" in the Influence section? First and Second international are seperated by a "List of socialists".

Alphabetical ordering works fine for sections of 15+ items, for a quick search, but not for sections of 4 or 5 items. ActiveSelective 07:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but if you try to organise them in terms of "importance" it becomes a subjective matter that a lot of people will get crabby over. I know it looks a tad funny, but I find it's better than an arbitrary list (even a short one), and less contentious than listing them by "importance". Just saves editors future headaches, as I see it. If there's another neutral way of organising this that's also more aesthetically pleasing, go for it. Arranging "Anarchism" above "Marxism" means nothing if its merely for alphanumeric organisational consistency. I should say, though, that I moved the "List of Socialists" to the bottom. You were right, that particular seperation looked too weird. --Yossarian 13:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Hm. I don't see no people crabby over it. Still looks strange. But I like your flag, by the way. ActiveSelective 13:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it had been organised by importance before I changed it (for example, I doubt Owenism would have been put above Marxism if that were so). I just assumed the lists were compiled with no real organisation in mind. I was suggesting that listing them by importance would be the most likely alternate to an alphabetical (or the like) system, and that if someone tried to implement it as such, people would get crabby. So I put it in alphabetical order, just for the sake of presumpting such a problem, and the fact that I personally like organisational details...like alphabetical orders ;) I actually doubt anyone will notice that they're alphabetical (the lists aren't really long enough, as you said), but if anyone percieves a political bias, rather than an organisational one, they can just be pointed to the talk page for an explanation. But, and I think we can both agree, my flag is nifty. Cheers --Yossarian 15:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Still a little confused over the Scrabble thing...also, why is the Scrabble system better for that grouping? Sorry, I don't mean to be bloody minded. I'm just trying to make sure things make sense. --Yossarian 08:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, alphanumerical ordering (again!) is too eurocentric. Obvious, duh. But you're right, I know what you mean, the thing still looks funny, indeed, now there are still two sections sorted alphabetically. Don't worry. We'll sort that out. You'll agree that picking a sort method at random is a guaranteed POV-free way of sorting, instead of doing everything only the eurocentric way. And, accidentally and luckaly, it just happens that this particular sorting there makes the section also look better. It accidentally makes it more logical, like the "key issues" section not starting with "criticism" anymore (that's just like, for example, the holocaust article not starting with "holocaust denial" anymore). ActiveSelective 10:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yesssss...but, by the same token, the Scrabble way is (arguably) American in bias (the values in Scrabble were assigned by an American using the frequencies of letters in American newspapers, the game is owned by an American company, its mostly played in the United States of America...). But, then, if we wanted it to not be European or American, we might sort it the way Chinese speakers sort logograms (something of an impossibility since English speakers don't use logograms to write English). But then it would be Sinocentric. But that's me playing devil's advocate. More practically, the Scrabble method is overly complex. If someone wanted to add something to the list, s/he'd have to sit down and calculate every letter's value, add it up, add fifty points for a seven letter word, and then the thing you said about 3x word value and 2x letter value, which I'm actually not sure I understand (this all assumes they know how to play Scrabble). The problem with sorting them "logically" (in terms of "influence"), is that it represents someone's (or a group of someones') bias(es). So, to put it plainly: If one sorts Anarchism over Marxism (for example) because A comes before M, it has no bearing on any endorsed importance attributed to either movements because the organisational system is based on the progression of letters in the English Latin alphabet. Okay, maybe it is Eurocentric (simply for the fact that Europeans use it), but it has no inherant political bias (like a "logic" or "importance" based progression) other than the fact that it evolved in Europe because Europeans use alphabets rather than logograms or hieroglyphics (Semetic languages also use alphabets, and I'm fairly certain (but don't quote me) their speakers occasionally use the progressions of those alphabets to list things). Sidelining a simple organisational tool because it's European would be rather shortsighted. I can definitely understand your reservation about the seperation of the "Internationals" at the bottom...but I just don't see why its a big deal to have the Influences section set out alphabetically. It's easy to do, it's not biased , and if any special provisions need to be made (such as the Internationals getting seperated...but that has more to do with organizing by like subjects) it's not too hard to do. Soooo...there's my little essay on this subject...I think I'm about spent ;). Again, I don't mean to sound bloody minded. I'm just hopelessly confused at this point. Cheers --Yossarian 10:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you are confused. Semitic languages use consonantal alphabets, without vowels. They also put letters in a different order. The letter Z is the seventh in the Hebrew alphabet, for example. ActiveSelective 11:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Z(eta) is also the sixth letter of the Greek alphabet, what's yer point? I was merely saying that they (Semites) might organise such things in terms of their alphabet's order. Why would they organize it using the Latin alphabet's order? Rather, why does it matter that Z is the seventh letter? And lacking vowels hasn't got much to do with alphabetical order (as far as I know). Are you under the impresion that I was suggesting alphabetical order is only determined by the Latin alphabet? Or that I was suggesting that's how others should organize lists with their own alphabets (Alpha, Beta, Delta, as opposed to Alpha, Beta, Gamma)? Alphabetical order is determined by whatever alphabet you're using, I believe...I wouldn't arrange a list of words spelt with Hebrew letters with the order of the Latin alphabet. Perhaps what we have here is a failure to communicate with each other... --Yossarian 12:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Start over

Let's start fresh. I have to admit, at this point, I have absoloutely no idea how you're coming up with these systems. No idea how (your version of) the Scrabble sort works; no idea what a "Semitic" sort would be. I'm assuming that, for whatever reason, alphabetical order is out (I still don't know why, with the exception of the International thing). Well, why don't we think of an organiser that's just as simple, which everyone can understand? --Yossarian

Heh. Wow. Let me see if I understand the argument so far. You're (ActiveSelective) arguing over the order of listings sort method on the English language Wikipedia and are against alphabetical ordering? Call me a anglophile but this seems like rather a logical choice since, you know, the language we'd be reading it in (and, well, apparently, discussing it in as well) seems to me, to be, IN FACT, ENGLISH. *cough*

Sorry. I get a little riled up over this kind of thing, but you see, this is the English-language section of Wikipedia, so I always figured that the endorsment of the English language was kind of a foregone conclusion. Since that's the language we're reading. For instance, I don't think you'd find any dictionary, NPOV or not, to be listed in Scrabble values. No matter how hilarious neutral it might be. I agree that leaving Anarchism in there first over Marxism is a little unfair ((OH NOES!)) but that's just the way the turnip tumbles sometimes. In the case of 'Holocaust Denial' listed first in the holocaust template, well, that's just plain nutty. There are special cases for things, I just can't really suppose that, in all fairness, this is one of them. Anyway, that's my ten kopeks. You two crazy kids can figure it out on your own, I'm sure. --Oceanhahn 07:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC) //EDIT: As for 'Semitic' organization, I'm afraid I don't understand. You're listing according the... the last letter of the last word?

[edit] Cultural Aspects

I have been creating a series of Irish political templates on issues like Irish Nationalism, Republicanism, Unionism, Monarchism. One thing that struck me as useful to link, but which is missing on this and other templates, is a link to cultural aspects. Socialism has strong cultural features which have been used to communicate messages and concepts. It can be found in everything from songs like The Red Flag to particular paradigm shift theatre (key plays in the early 20th century promoting the concept of the proletariat fighting the bosses, etc which fundamentally changed viewpoints), to key publications. It might be useful to have one or two such cultural links. Other areas like Christian Democracy or Social Democracy often hasn't had a cultural aspect, but socialism has had a particularly strong one, with socialist states often using strong cultural aspects (songs, images, stories) to communicate its message. Any thoughts? FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Utopian Socialism

I've added Utopian socialism because it belongs in the template, either as a current of socialist thought, or at the very least as an influence. The ideas of Robert Owen (to whom we owe a lot of terms relating to socialism (and for whose ideas the term 'socialism' itself was coined, who helped organise one of the first British trade unions in the Grand National Consolidated Trades Union, and who was one of the inspirations of the Rochdale Pioneers and the British Co-operative movement), Charles Fourier, and others were the intellectual leaders of the Pre-Marxian socialist movement, and (for example, in Robert Owen's "Report to the County of Lanark") laid the foundations for a number of ideas which were expanded upon later by Marx and Engels, and later Marxian Socialists. Similarly, the lessons learned in failed social experiments (like New Harmony) informed the Socialist theories and institutions that followed. Finally, if you read - for example - Beatrice Webb's "'The Co-operative Movement in Great Britain," you will note that the early Fabian socialists (and some of the later Fabians, like G.D.H. Cole) were famliar with, in the case of Webb claim an intellectual herritage which can be traced to, and borrow some ideas from, Owen. In turn, Fabian ideas have informed the ideas of various strains of social-democratic, labourite, and progressive thought in the English speaking world (and - in particular - in Britain).

Given these reasons and, in the words of G.D.H. Cole, prior to the 1840s, "The word 'Socialist... meant 'Owenite', and had hardly, in Great Britain, any other meaning," (Cole, G.D.H., “A Century of Co-Operation”, Oxford: George Allen & Unwin Ltd., 1944, p. 28.) it would be a huge oversight not to include Utopian socialism in the template. - AmishThrasher 01:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Politics portal & List of socialist ideas

Why is the politics portal being deleted? That's not redundant. As for the "list of socialist ideas"...well, that's a little difficult. Yes, the template is a "list of socialist ideas", but the article would, potentially, be more comprehensive. However, I don't think it's necessary to include, as the aritcle is more of a list of ideologies than a list of ideas. If that changed, maybe it could work. --Yossarian 02:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• The reason I deleted the politics portal is that it's not specifically about socialism. The Communism template has a Communism portal, and Fascism has a Fascism portal. However, I see that the Politics Portal is in the Conservativism template, so I can see the justification. Maybe it's time for people to create a Socialism portal. I renamed the "List of socialist ideas to "List of socialist ideologies." It wasn't a problem because nothing was linked to it yet. I re-added it to the template because it is a good resource and lists much more than what is in (or should be in) the template and socialism-related See Also sections.Spylab 14:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

Nobody supports your ridiculous assertion that a politics portal has nothing to do with one of the most influential political ideologies of modern histroy. Thus, please stop this campaign of deletions. -- WGee

• Now you're the one who has a reading problem. Above I wrote that I now I can see the justification, since there is no Socialism portal. Please stop this campaign against all of my edits, no matter their worthiness. You don't have the massive consensus that you pretend to have. Spylab 14:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

I am not campaigning against your edits "no matter their worthiness". I'm sure you've made more constructive edits to other articles, but virtually all of your contributions to socialism-related articles have compromised their quality. -- WGee 18:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC)