Talk:Smallville (Season 1)

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[edit] Copyright violations?

If you google some of the episode descriptions, they are listed verbatim on a few other websites as well. Were this descriptions pulled from wikipedia or did whoever added them here pull them from another source? I am not sure if this is the case for all of the episodes, but it was for the few that I googled. If anyone has any more insight, let me know, otherwise I'll have to add this page (and maybe the other seasons, I haven't checked) as having copyright issues. PS2pcGAMER 01:15, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Correct Date?

While I am not 100% sure of this, I seem to remember the starting date of the series as before September 11th, 2001, not October 16th, 2001. Will someone please check into this


                                                                                  Lue3378 04:08, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I trust tv.com, and it says that the first episode did indeed air on October 16th. Sorry! Emily 18:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overview

I think the overview needs to be shortened considerably. It is basically all the episodes summed together, when it should just contain major story arcs and plot lines. Bignole 04:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed just about all of what was in the overview because it was the same information that was in the episode descriptions. The overview should be an overview, not the entire season detail for detail. The characters do not need biographies, they have their own pages for that. Only major plot points, like Lex and Clark becoming friends. Bignole 05:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tina Greer

According to some on wikipedia, Tina Greer's goal is to be Lana forever. This is true at first, but later Tina realizes that she isn't jealous of Lana, she loves Lana. That's when she wants to be with Lana forever. Does anyone else want to confirm or disagree with this? I already know Bignole's stance on this. 8.04

This is true, but not in Season 1. In Season 1 she wants to kill Lana and become her, but after she escapes from the asylum she wants a relationship with Lana, but that is in the later seasons. Bignole
Ok, that is true. 8.04 03:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transition to individual pages

I'm starting the transion to individual episode pages as specified in Individual episode articles. This page can't handle detailed information for each like Pilot. Wikia is not a substitute, it should only be an external link . Please keep responses brief. - Peregrinefisher 19:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Why do you keep doing this? You don't get your way so you go to another page, or start another section to try and get a different response. The information that you want to include shouldn't be included anyway. You ARE NOT following the parameters for creating an article about a tv show based on a fictional universe. You are creating articles that detail each episode with quotes, huge plots, music and useless trivia. Try actually working on something before you try and change it to your way. Bignole 20:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Music

I think we need to remove all "lists" of music and have a music section and just discusses the music within the season. We can talk about how the show uses the music (really find a source that talks about it) and then just link to a page that lists the music for each episode. "Listing" is not good for an article, unless the entire article is about that list (i.e. List of Episodes). It's much better to turn it into a summary and then link to a list outside of wiki. Bignole 15:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

External links with each section is appropriate in this case, since this page is trying to represent each episodes as well as a list of episodes. The problem can be solved with individual ep pages, of course, but User:Bignole reverts any edits pertaining to that, so I guess they have to fit here. - Peregrinefisher 22:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Here are two Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links) and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings)#Nesting. Please note the placement of "External Links". Also Wikipedia: External links#Important points to remember. But you guys seem to want to play favorites here. You remove the header links per MOS, but then violate another MOS when you do it. Bignole 22:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I want to add relevant information to the smallville pages, such as the episode links. Where do you want them? - Peregrinefisher 22:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
You have two websites where you are linking to every single episode about 1 topic. Per the MOS for External linking, you should avoid this for linking to the best link, which is the main page for that topic. The MOS for nesting the External links section is at the very bottom of the page, but we have 22 of those, one for every episode. Bignole 22:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Three links per episode is excessive. The best solution is to have one link to each site at the bottom of the page that connects to the season summary, e.g.,

[edit] External links

Season 1 at Wikia.

CovenantD 22:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted the over-abundance of external links on the basis that Wikipedia is not a link repository. CovenantD's solution as shown above should be sufficient rather than linking per episode. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 22:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

So while I was writing about it, you were doing something - I love it when edits syncronize like that :) CovenantD 22:54, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article size

The article is of sufficient length at 30 kb. Please see WP:SIZE for sizing conventions. 32 kb is the threshold, and even so, crossing the threshold doesn't necessarily force the need to break the article down into sub-articles. Also, in regard to readability issues, "The 32 KB recommendation is considered to have stylistic value in many cases; if an article is significantly longer than that, then it probably should be summarized with detail moved to other articles." The article is nowhere near a significant length. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 23:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

This was Peregrine's purpose, to fluff the article so that he could use HIS individual episode pages which were supposed to be deleted, as a vote was cast with third party Admins telling him and Matt that most episodes cannot support an entire page by themselves. Bignole 23:10, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Can you provide a link to that discussion? CovenantD 23:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I want to add well formatted info to this page. Stuff like relevant links and cast lists and summaries that would make sense to a non fan. Every time I do this Bignole tries to delete and minimize it so the article doesn't get any bigger. - Peregrinefisher 23:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
You were adding a cast name for the "fencing instructor", how is that even relevant? How are quotes relevant, because you wanted to add those as well. How is listing every song in the episode relevant to the encyclopedia, or detailing everything that happens in the episode? You wanted to add a lot of fancruft to the pages. Bignole 23:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
It originated as a proposed deletion for List of Smallville episodes, which Peregrin set up a few months ago, after all the season pages had been established. But the topic turned to "individual episode pages" as Peregrine was linking the episodes to the individual pages he had created. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Smallville episodes, the result ended with the majority saying keep the "Lists" page, but link to the Season page, and "don't create the episode pages". Bignole 23:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion for redirect

Since redirecting this page to the list of episodes is disputed, the change should not be forced. A census must be reached. Please use this section to present your side of the argument. —Erik (talk/contrib) @ 19:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Adds my name to the census* - Matthew Fenton - Born: [CENSORED], Sex: [CENSORED], Age: [CENSORED], Location: [CENSORED] ;-) thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 19:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
1.Seasonal Pages are accetible methods of format for TV show articles.
2.Individual Episode pages rarely support themselves per Wikipedia's own policies and guidelines about articles size requirement, notability, etc.
3. Five Seasons of articles were up long before the "List of Episodes" was established, thus senority goes to the Season pages.
4.Votes carried out on other articles do not reflect that vote that already took place on this article. Bignole 19:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
See m:voting is evil. This process is following consensus reached at Wikipedia:WikiProject List of Television Episodes/structure and Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Lost episodes. - Peregrinefisher 19:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
How can you put a "voting is evil" link up, and then cite two instances where a vote was reached for a consensus. Also, Season Pages are not "List" pages, thus their criteria does not befall this page. Again, a consensus on "LOST" is not a consensus on "Smallville". Every page is different. Not even every Featured Article for a film looks the same. Bignole 19:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Why is it necessary to redirect this page? The article size is not of an inconvenient length. There's enough notable information per episode that's represented on this article, so it doesn't require creating episode pages. —Erik (talk/contrib) @ 19:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Probably because this page looks like a horrendous mess, it is all squishy and formatted badly. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 19:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Not a valid excuse to redirect a page. When a page is in bad shape, the ideal method is to improve it. —Erik (talk/contrib) @ 19:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Per a link that Peregrine referenced awhile ago Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes#Dealing with problem articles. It states that if an article is too small merge it into either the main article, the list article, or the season article. Since there is a lack of verifiable information for every single episode of this show, there is no reason to have an individual episode for every one. Putting a reference in the plot (like you did with Metamorphosis, Peregrine) does not mean you have "verifiable information". There is no need to merge a seasonal page that was here over a year earlier with a List page. Bignole 19:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The reason is that I want to add to each episode's info. For formatting reasons, the info doesn't fit well in the season page. For instance, links related to each episode, cast information, and better summaries. If I added 20kb of summary, will you agree to episode pages? I was hoping to get the linking worked out first, but if you'll give me a kb threshhold, I guess I can work with that. - Peregrinefisher 19:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
What are you referring to? We don't need an infobox for every episode. Per Wiki's linking policy, it isn't a repository of links, so linking every episode is irrelevant. You are attempting to add information that is either unnecessary or violates some guideline or policy. This "Hothead" is the third episode of the first season of the WB original series, Smallville. The episode was written by Greg Walker and directed by Greg Beeman. It originally aired on October 30, 2001." and quotes are the only extra bit you have on the episode pages. Other than that, you have a different format. You have an infobox and you make an actual section to "lists" songs in the episode (when we already have soundtracks listed on the main article) and to list every guest start on the episode (even ones that played busy bodies on the street and had no real connection to the plot of the show). Bignole 19:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The first stuff you mention is a page header. Cast, summary, and music info is what's verifiable about an episode. I guess your the magical judge of which cast member is important enough to go in a WP page, and my opinion doesn't count? - Peregrinefisher 20:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. It is simply not notable or encyclopedic to include even the most minor cast members. —Erik (talk/contrib) @ 20:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


I have an idea. You keep saying that you "want to do this and that" and this is your reasoning for dismantling the Season pages in favor or individual episode pages, but I have yet to see anything on the individual pages that supports the claim that it can be an article by itself. Why don't you do this, step back and go work on the Pilot (Smallville episode) and one of the other pages that you created. Get those two pages into the condition that YOU say can support an article. Then, we'll come back and discuss those pages in comparison to what could be on this page, or what could not be on this page, whatever the case may be. I say 2 episodes, because the "Pilot" is too easy, you should be able to easily find plenty of encyclopedic content to support that page, because it's the Pilot and it got more coverage than the rest. I can honestly see the Pilot and some other key episodes, like the 100th episode actually being able to support itself with actual encyclopedic content. I say do another episode because I want to see how much verifiable, encyclopedic content you can find for some plain episode that doesn't have the significance of being the Premiere or the Finale, or the 100th episode. This will give every an idea of what kind of things can be found for these pages. I'm talking real encyclopedic content, not trivia you digup on IMDb (i.e. Coach Arnold was possibly named after Dan Lauria's character on "The Wonder Years"). The pages must conform to the guidelines and policies of Wikipedia. If you can prove that it can be done, especially to some runofthemill episode, then you'll have a case to redirect the pages. Because, right now you haven't proved that these episodes can actually follow the rules of Wikipedia and still support themselves as articles without requiring to be merge with something else. Bignole 20:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The first six are pretty much ready to go: Hourglass, Cool, X-Ray, Hothead, Metamorphosis. All it takes to make an episode to large for the season page is External links, Guest cast, Plot, and Featured Music. I don't know what's so hard about that. - Peregrinefisher 20:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
That's all there is? I've looked at them. You have an expanded plot for a 40 minute show (unnecessary, Wikipedia is not a substitution for watching the show), what is the relevance of listing every song that appeared in the episode? How is that not fancruft(already on the season page anyway)? The point to listing every guest actor, even if they only appear for 2 second on the show, or listing the regular cast every time, even if they don't all appear in the episode? What external links? Linking to TV.com for every episode, when it can be accomplished by linking to the season once? Again, what is on your episode page, is already on the Season page. The big differences is that you make an entire section for 5 songs, and 2 guests, and an infobox for every episode that contains the same information on the Season page. Obviously if we can fit 22 episodes of the same information onto 1 page, and barely break 30 kb (when you it isn't even suggested to separate pages until you get to 50kb), doesn't that tell you right there that those articles cannot support themselves. See, this isn't a fight of what's right or wrong, or better or worse, it's a fight about what YOU like against what Wikipedia says. Bignole 21:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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