Talk:Slander and libel
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Parts of this text from 1911encyclopedia.com.
This text is obviously very Britain and US-centric. Could anybody please contribute something more on libel laws in the rest of the world, and their evolution?
Also, it'd be good to include a more detailed description of the star chamber, etc.
Moved Wikipedia-specific issues to a new page entitled Wikipedia:Libel -Dachshund
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This is info about libel and slander in a legal system not based on British Common Law. France would have similar laws, thou I have nothing approaching unimpeachable knowledge about present day Code Napoleon in France. The Quebec Civil Code (based on the Napoleonic Code) make libels against the dead actionable by their heirs. The Q.C.C. also provides stronger privacy legislation than virtually any jurisdiction, which can serve the same ends as a libel suit. User:Two16
It is under arts. 35-36 of the Civil Code of Quebec, however, I am not sure that it belongs here as Slander and libel are common law torts, the CCQ has created a separate right here, it is even distinct from the general right under art. 1447 for extracontracual liability which is hhistorically delicts and quasi-delicts. Shouldn't this information go on a page, Privacy law (Quebec)? Alex756
This article should also at least mention the concepts of "veggie libel" (of which there have been a few famous cases in the past decade or so) and "seditious libel". 18.24.0.120 03:01, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Be bold. — Alex756 04:38, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- I'm hoping that someone who actually knows something about the topic will do the writing, since the research required for me to write it is far beyond what I'm willing to put in on a topic I have no special connection with. 18.24.0.120 04:52, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The description of Australian law is inaccurate - Dow Jones v. Gutnick did not profoundly change the law but upheld existing principles. Dow Jones was arguing for a change in the way the law dealt with conflict of laws on the Internet, but the arguement was rejected.
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[edit] Curious wording
"Laws regulating slander and libel in the United States began to develop even before the American Revolution. In one of the most famous cases, New York publisher John Peter Zenger was imprisoned in 1734 for printing attacks on the governor of the colony. Zenger won his case by establishing that the truth is an absolute defense against libel charges. Previous English defamation law had not provided this guarantee."
It says he was "imprisoned", but then that he won his case. This makes little sense to me, unless by "imprisoned" it means "tried" or "sued". 207.69.15.250 15:29, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- I think he was imprisioned, then released after trial. DES 17:02, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Truth as a defense
I was reluctant to reverse somebody else's text, especially since law isn't my field, but UK law (along with that of other Commonwealth countries) does NOT require falsehood to establish libel. See e.g. [1]. If anybody has a reference to the contrary, I'll happily revert.
My understanding is that under British law, this avenue of defense requires not only that the statement be true but also that it be in the public interest, or some such - but I'll leave it to somebody better-versed in the law to fill that in.
I also removed 'defamatory' because that was essentially a circular definition. (Especially since I came to this page via redirect from 'defamation' :-) --Calair 23:13, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- On a similar note, I'm confused by the first sentence under the 'Truth' heading. It says for statements to be defamatory they must be true. Should that say 'untrue'? Or am I misunderstanding a distinction between libelous and defamatory? -- Nojer2 23:45, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Aha. User:Johorne just cleared up this section and answered both our questions. -- Nojer2 23:48, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Removed Varian text
Removed the following text (part of a user's attempt to infiltrate this case into as many articles as possible...)
"The California Supreme Court in Varian v. Delfino dismissed allegations of defamation as simply derogatory statements."
kmccoy (talk) 08:12, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Dead people
Does anyone know if the family of a dead person can press libel charges (in order to protect the reputation of the dead person)?
If so, can these charges be pressed for an unlimited time after death or is there a limit: e.g. if a person has been dead for 100 years, libel charges cannot be pressed (considered irrelevant and in the past?)
--Henry Hadlow 09:43, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The common law has historically been that any action in tort is extinguishedd on the death of the claimant, hence the maxim 'better to kill than maim'. However, in most jurisdictions there has been a move to allow some actions to continue after death. I think the action in defamation is very limited and any damages that could be claimed would be severly compromised. Orizon 08:58, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
In English law, no civil action for defamation can be brought in respect of someone who is dead. However, if the publication of defamatory libel of a dead person is likely to cause a breach of the peace, criminal proceedings may be brought against the publisher.
[edit] Wikipedia, Wikinews and libel
Has anyone considered the potential of libel action against Wikipedia/Wikinews? It seems to me that Wiki~ grows more high-profile, the potential for legal issues in addition to copyright issues increases. Is this something the legal boffins have considered? If not, should they? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.157.197.108 (talk • contribs) 04:25, 22 September 2005.
- I believe that information is covered at Wikipedia:Libel. --Kgf0 19:55, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
- See Communications Decency Act.Cuthbert11 08:59, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] current events question
OK, I have a question prompted by a story I read in today's Times Online. As an American, I have long been aware that British libel laws give much more leeway to the plaintiff and much less to the defendent than ours do; to grossly oversimply the difference, it's that (as I have always heard it) in America "I may have been wrong, but I tried to be responsible in my fact-checking; I wasn't just lying for fun or recklessly; I legitimately thought what I wrote was true and here's why..." is adequeate defense whereas in Britain it isn't. In Britain the best way to win a libel defense is to prove that your claims were true.
Now I read that a businessman has won a libel action against the Times over the word "shabbily." A Times columnist said that the businessman had treated an employee "shabbily"; and as far as I can see in the article, the facts of how the businessman treated that employee weren't under dispute. So my question: surely "shabbily" is a matter of judgement, not of fact. If I tell a falsehood about you (you're a Martian) that's libel; but if all I'm doing is expressing my opinion (you're pompous) how can that be libel? This goes much much much further than I had previously realized British plaintiff-favoring went. Doops | talk 23:24, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Expressions of opinion usually come into the category of whether the opinion stated would cause people to "shun" the claimant. It may be a defence that the opinion is clearly justified by the facts of the case, though, by it's nature, the opinion is not a fact. See Miller v Associated Newspapers (2005)EWHC 557(QB)[2]. In this case it was held that although the opinions stated were harsh the facts of the case lent them enough support to avoid them being libellous. In other cases the court may decide that an opinion is derogatary but not enough to meet the "shun" test. The most famous case is that of actor William Roache. A newspaper described him as boring and claimed that fellow actors couldn't stand him. Although the court did not find any of the opinions to be true, they did not consider that they would be enough to cause people to shun him. The case you mention seems to be incredibly wrong by any standard - it will be intersting to see if it stands up to appeal.user:badtypist
[edit] defamation laws and democratic rights
This article doesn't emphasise the apparent delicate balance between defamation laws and political rights of free speech, only mentioning it at the end. Singapore, for example, has routine cases where the government prosecutes any rampant political criticism as defamation. -- Natalinasmpf 03:07, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
The defence of free speech seems to be unimpeachable in a modern democratic world. In many cases though the defendants in libel cases are multinational news organisations and the claimant are just ordinary people. Free speech - in terms of getting your views across to millions of people - is not something that is equally or fairly distributed. In effect many defences of free speech come down to a defence of allowing rich and powerful organisations to say what they want about people who have no reciprocal right.
- That's a good point but you're forgetting unalienable liberty. No one has the authority to make the distinction between people who are in a better position to exploit their rights (in this case rich and powerful organisations) than people who aren't. Only a few people own a television network but being in a privileged position shouldn't mean a violation of your rights, rights transcend class. I concede that the élite should be on a level playing field in terms of getting a message across but making the distinction paves the way for more distinctions since the first distinction was a violation of total free speech anyway (which was the original intention). Every libel case is an infringement of the first amendment unless a referendum is called to change it to "Freedom of speech except when what you're saying is false." --Onias 22:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] McDonald's
I notice that there's a sizeable bit on McDonald's (McLibel) case under the 'Burden of Proof section', and although I imagine the case does relate to the article, the text itself does not seem to explain the connection. It does however spend some time repeating the claims that promted the case in the first place. The section sounds as if it's trying to disparage McDonalds, rather than inform the user about the burden of proof. TimTim 17:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] definition
I've removed the following line from the opening paragraph:
- Defamation is defined to be the tort or delict of "...publication of a false statement of fact, made with the requisite state of mind, that causes injury"[1].
This is only the american definition, which is very different from most other parts of the world. --PullUpYourSocks 15:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reversal of Burden of Proof
There seems to be a lot of confusion as to what "reversal of burden of proof" means. Those who wish to defend systems that employ such reversals, try to make it sound as if the courts are presuming the plaintiff innocent of the statement made of them, so that the burden of proof only appears to be reversed, but is rightly being imposed on the defendant.
That is a complete distortion!
The court is not presuming the plaintiff innocent. It is presuming that the defendant has not presumed the plaintiff innocent.
But you can't do that! You can't legitimately impose a burden of proof on someone else, because you can't read their mind. It is a false argument to equate the court's knowledge of whether the defendant has presumed innocence with whether the defendant has actually presumed innocence.
So the burden of proof is, in fact, being reversed. The defendant must prove that they did not honour the innocence of the plaintiff, whether they actually did or not. They are presumed guilty of not honouring the plaintiff's innocence, which really just amounts to a presumption of guilt of defaming. All this serves to do is make it more likely for plaintiffs to win cases - it does not impose a presumption of innocence on the public as it claims to. 24.68.180.163 22:28, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
It is not terrible helpful, I feel, to describe slander as a verbal defamation. Verbal means using words. Both slander and libel will generally (although note AP Herbert's amusing example using signal flags) use words. Oral would be better, I think. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.7.240.49 (talk • contribs).
An easier way to explain the supposed reverse burden of proof is to state what the plaintiff and the defendant are required to prove. The plaintiff only has to prove that the defendant has made a statement which has disparaged his reputation. However, it is a defence for the defendant to prove that the statement is true. Compare, for example, to a prosecution for murder. The prosecution has to prove the that defendant has killed the victim. It is a defence for the defendant to prove that he acted in self defence (if the defendant can't prove this, then he will be convicted).
(The immediately preceding paragraph appears to be an unsigned comment, or part of a comment that was signed in the middle rather than at the end.) I think the problem here is that the whole "Burden of proof on the plaintiff" section definitely needs a rewrite. I may take a stab at it later, but as it is now, it is a mess that needs carefully reworked. In broad outline, the whole focus on a "reversed" burden of proof states the situation poorly. In the US and other similar countries, falsehood is part of the prima facie case for slander or libel, in jurisdictions that follow the UK model, instead, it is an affirmative defense. In either case, the plaintiff has the usual burden of showing the elements of the prima facie case, and the defendant the burden for establishing any affirmative defenses. The presentation of this as a "reversal" of the "usual" burden of proof is confusing and inaccurate: having affirmative defenses which the defendant is required to establish is not in any respect unusual. The entire second paragraph seems to be a confused attempt to rationalize the idea of a reversed burden of proof based on the idea of a presumption of innocence, as best I can tell it ought to be removed utterly unless there is some source to support this particular kind of justification. Cmdicely 22:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Unremovable graffiti?
There seems to be a line of text at the end of the "truth" section that does not appear when the page is pulled up to be edited. Anyone know how to remove this?
[edit] Some minor questions/issues
- The article mixes British and American spelling (defense/defence offense/offence
behavior/behaviour. Wp:mos says that either is OK, but that the article should use the same dialect throughout. Barring objections, I will try to make it consistently American English. - Why is the Topics in Journalism box included here? It was added without explanation in the Revision as of 20:48, 5 September 2006 by User:Chivista. Barring objections, I'll remove the {{Journalism}}.
- I note that the {{TortLaw-I}} box also included in this article uses American english. That will not change if this article goes with British English spellings. -- Boracay Bill 07:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
- Made the above changes -- Boracay Bill 00:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
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New California Case on Cyberspeech
Shouldn't there be some reference to the newly decided case in Californa, which rejected a defamation claim involving Internet speech. I will get the citation.
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Justification of edit of introductory sentence
The preceding introductory sentence was modified by substituting 2 sentences and separating the remainder of the paragraph as a new paragraph. The earlier 1st sentence had 2 flaws:
1. It was structurally incorrect by defining “defamation” as a “right of action” when it really is the wrong which sometimes may be remedied by a right of action. The new sentences clarify this relationship.
2. The scope of defamation was incorrectly limited to reputational harm to individuals. Defamation law also encompasses (at least in some jurisdictions) reputational harm to business entities, groups of people, governments, and nations. Examples include, a business entity: Bose Corporation vs. Consumers Union of U.S., Inc. 466 U.S. 485 (1984) (alleged defamation of product of corporation); a group of people: Beauharnais vs. Illinois 343 U.S. 250 (1952) (criminal law prohibiting defamation of racial or religious groups); a nation: the recent trial of novelist Orhan Pamuk in Turkey under Article 301 of Turkish Criminal Code ("insulting Turkishness") for asserting 1,000,000 Armenians and 30,000 Kurds were killed in Turkey early in the last century. I don’t have ready at hand an example of a trial of a dissenter allegedly defaming his or her government, but I believe such occurs in the People’s Republic of China and in many other jurisdictions. The scope of the article should not be limited to defamation law of which we approve, but should encompass defamation law as it exists in various jurisdictions and how it has evolved through history. Ray Glock-Grueneich 00:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Ray Glock-Grueneich
[I inappropriately labeled the edit discussed immediately above as a "minor edit" because it only involved one sentence. Sorry to mislead. It won't be repeated.]Ray Glock-Grueneich 04:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
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I want to respond to the commentator who remarked this entry was "obviously Britain- and US centric" and requested material reflecting the content and history of defamation law in the "rest of the world." Since the "Slander and Libel" article is portrayed as being one of a series of articles on the law of "Tort," which in turn is part of a series on the "Common Law," it is quite understandable that the subject matter would be largely limited to England, the United States, and nations having the Common Law of England in their history.
Nevertheless, I am sympathetic to the criticism and request noted. Acknowledging the value of the article to one trying to learn about this aspect of the Common Law tradition, the problems presented by law attempting to cope with defamation, and the dangers to free speech as a foundation for democracy that are presented in this field, are universal and not limited to nations sharing a Common Law tradition. In my view, it better serves the purpose of Wikipedia as a general encyclopedia for us to strive to make this particular article as universal as possible, and to present particular cases as illustrations of how one particular nation (or historical period within a nation) has approched a problem with univeral implications. The current law and/or legal history of particular nations or groups of nations, such as those with an English Common Law tradition or a tradition of Code Napoleon or Soviet legal orientation, can be addressed in articles focusing on those jurisdictions
My own background is almost exclusively in the law of the United States, and so my contributions generally will reflect this limitation. But I enthusiastically welcome contributions that provide a more catholic perspective. In particular, I would like to see some material dealing with the Turkish experience with Article 301 of their Criminal Code, as an example of a nation enforcing a law prohibiting defamation of a nation. I realize this is a contentious topic sometimes brought into the discussion of the merits of the Turkish application for membership in the European Union. Yet, I think it would be possible for those exercising Wikipedia discipline to present a balanced view on the goals, problems and dangers of the concept of defamation of a nation. And such treatment, in my opinion, belongs in the instant article on "Slander and Libel."
It is my intention to attempt a number of edits which reflect an attempt to make this particular article as general as feasible, while still respecting the good work already contained within it.Ray Glock-Grueneich 22:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
