Talk:Sirikitiya Jensen

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to Sirikitiya Jensen. It is obvious everyone wants to include a surname. Mai vs. Sirikitiya can be discussed more if wanted, but I would just not get into that: it's not that important what the article is titled as long as it's correct, not POV, and there is a redirect from one to the other. —Mets501 (talk) 01:46, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Sirikitiya → Sirikitiya Jensen – Conventional firstname lastname titles for non-royal biographies, as per above discussion. New discussion so as to use the template and follow WP:RM Paul C 11:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Delete as non-notable. Failing that, support move. This is just an ordinary American, with an ordinary American name. Gene Nygaard 15:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

• Failing that, oppose move and support move to Mai Jensen instead. This is an ordinary American whose ordinary American name, according to the article, is Mai Jensen. Gene Nygaard 17:34, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

• Support. Notable. Officially not a royal so article name should be Sirikitiya Jensen. -- Lerdsuwa 16:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

• Her name is "Mai", so it shouldn't be "Sirikitiya" with or without a surname, royal or not. Gene Nygaard 19:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

• Support move to Sirikitiya Jensen. Notable (see Discussion below). Her official name is Sirikitiya, not Mai (see Discussion below).

Not the applicable standard. See below. Gene Nygaard 02:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

• Relisting. --Dijxtra 08:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

• Her real name is Sirikitiya Jensen, and this should be the title of the article. Even though for Thais, use of the nickname is fairly common, it is never used for Wikipedia article titles (e.g., Bhumi Jensen vs. Phoom Jensen, Ai Karn Yao Panyachatraksa vs Prapat Panyachatraksa, Kathaleeya McIntosh vs. Mam McIntosh, etc.). Patiwat 22:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

• No. Her real name is "Mai Jensen", though that isn't the standard for Wikipedia:Naming conventions. Rather, the standard is how she is best known in English (Bill Clinton, e.g.): once again, "Mai Jensen". Gene Nygaard 02:28, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, her real name is Sirikitiya Jensen, and she is most commonly known as Sirikitiya Jensen. I believe the editor who refered to her as "Mai" might not have used the most common way of referring to her (it is hard to tell, because that person never supplied any references). The Nation, one of Thailand's two english language daily newspapers has 4 mentions of her, all of which call her 'Sirikitiya Jensen' [1] [2] [3] [4]. Another 2 mentions of her call her 'Sirikitiya “Mai” Jensen' [5] [6]. Nowhere is she called simply 'Mai Jensen'. The Bangkok Post, another english language daily, requires registration for search and payment for text beyond the first sentence, so you might have to take my word for it that it contains 12 mentions of 'Sirikitiya Jensen' or 'Sirikittiya Jensen' and none for 'Mai Jensen'. Patiwat 09:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Relevance? What does her student ID say? Her driver's license? I don't know the answer to that, but can get a pretty good guess from this verifiable quote from a reliable source, indicating quite clearly that she appeared as "Mai Jensen" in her high school yearbook: "Katie Donahoe, who graduated from Torrey Pines in 2000, said Poomi was not listed in the index of the 1999-2000 Torrey Pines yearbook, though his younger sister, Mai Jensen, appeared as a member of the school's freshman class." NC Times.com (online edition of North County Times of Escondido and several other California cities)[7], 28 December 2004, accessed 4 October 2006. Gene Nygaard 12:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I wont question the validity of NCTimes, nor will I undertake original research on this matter. But note that in addition to the 18 references mentioned above, the Chiang Mai Mail newspaper also calls her Sirikitiya Jensen [8], while the Alpha Lambda Delta honor society knows her as Sirikitiya Mai Jensen [9]. Not Mai Jensen. Given that only one media source has been identified that calls her Mai Jensen, I really doubt that she is "best known in English" as Mai Jensen. Patiwat 05:34, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

That honor society listing is like many graduation rolls; all given names in addition to last name. It isn't a very reliable indication of what she is known by. It is an indication that the Mai is likely a given name she has had since birth, not a "mere nickname" as some have dismissed it here. Gene Nygaard 14:58, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• She is notable. She is one of two surviving children of the eldest child of the current monarch of Thailand. According to the primogeniture principle established in the 1924 Palace Law of Succession, the throne goes to the eldest son. However, the 1974 Constitution allowed female monarchs. In theory, without the appointment of a heir apparent by the King, that would make Sirikitiya's mother next in line to the throne. In practice, her younger brother was appointed heir apparent, and she was rejected from the royal family. But the Chakri/Saowabha/Savang Vadhana/Sukumala lineage is "thin" - there aren't that many potential successors. Thus, even people who might not seem significant warrant articles. Patiwat 22:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Having a notable ancestor doesn't make her notable. She's just a non-notable American college student. Gene Nygaard 02:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ. Even though she is just a college student, she is theoretically a potential heir to the Thai throne. Even Japan's Kako and Mako of Akishino have articles, and they're just Japanese junior-highschoolers who happen to be Emperor Akihito's eldest grandaughters. And Japan doesn't even allow females to the throne, so their notability is just that they carry royal blood and are fans of Puffy AmiYumi. Even Beatrice of York warrants an article, and she's just a dyslexic highschooler. Patiwat 10:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

She is notable in Thailand. She received enough press coverage to meet the Wikipedia:Notability (people). -- Lerdsuwa 15:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

She had a marginally notable brother (in line for the throne, perhaps a Darwin Award candidate for jet-skiing in a tsunami). Most of the mentions of her in the Thailand press are in connection with attending his funeral, aren't they, just as the one in the American press was? Attending a funeral is hardly something to make one notable. Gene Nygaard 15:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's please keep this focused on the subject of the article, not her brother. If you have a beef with the Thai royal family, there's bigger and more worthwhile fish to fry. From the references noted above, she has done various royal activities like attend store openings, high-society functions, and hand out certificates, other stuff. That being said, would you like to extend this discussion of non-notability to various other figures, like the above mentioned Kako, Mako, and Beatrice? Because if Sirikitiya isn't notable enough for an article, then Kako, Mako, and Beatrice definitely don't deserve articles. Patiwat 09:28, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.