Talk:Sioux Uprising

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Contents 1 Origins 2 Page name 3 Death toll? 4 Merge 5 Concentration Camp or Fort Snelling stockade? 6 A Comment on Revisionism and Titles 7 References and Citations

[edit] Origins

I live near where the "Sioux Uprising" took place. I have many times heard a story about how the war started over a few potatoes. The story goes (and I don't remember the important detail) but either natives or some soldiers were hungry and dug up some potatoes. An argument erupted over the right for the potatoe taking party to take the potatoes. Soon after that the violence began. Has anyone else heard this story? Andercee 06:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page name

Just curious if anyone thinks there is a better name for this article. I researched this a tiny bit a while back, and some Native American articles I saw on it had a lot of disdain for the name "Sioux Uprising", as it seems to be somewhat biased (particularly since some Dakota/Lakota still seem to consider the name "Sioux" to be an insult, even though others like the Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux are comfortable with it..) Anyway, I'd been using the name U.S.-Dakota Conflict to refer to it in some earlier articles. I suppose U.S.-Dakota War of 1862 might be somewhat more common, though it's hard to say if these events work out to be a "war" or not.. —User:Mulad (talk) 15:19, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

I think "Sioux Uprising" is still the most commonly used name for that conflict. I know some people have concerns about it and try to promote different names, but there doesn't seem to be one settled alternative yet. Some people dislike the name Sioux, but I have also heard people use it as a term of pride to describe themselves. Jonathunder 15:48, 2005 Apr 26 (UTC)

I'd also note both references for this article use "Sioux Uprising". If we found Native American sources (and we should), they may not use that. I did create some more redirects I hope may be helpful. Jonathunder 16:08, 2005 Apr 26 (UTC)

I added a link to an extensive annotated bibliography on the Minnesota Historical Society website, which I think will be a really good source of both primary and secondary references. It calls the event the "Dakota War of 1862" or "Dakota Conflict". Jonathunder 16:56, 2005 Apr 26 (UTC)

The event, at the time that it occured, and for the subsequent 110 years, was called the Sioux Uprising in all English-language sources yet extant. Works covering the topic since the 1970s have, in some but not all cases, used other terminology, though as noted above there is no agreement as to the exact form this other name should take. I consider this to be revisionism of the worst form, because regardless of the objections (some valid) to the name "Sioux Uprising," and the horror of the event itself, the historical record has already chosen for us. Schulz (see references on article) uses the term "Sioux Uprising" and he is hardly an apologist for the Federal government. I also note that opposition to the use of the word "Sioux" to describe the Dakota/Lakota people is not universal. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:23, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• I have to agree - the Manual of style makes clear that we should use the most commonly used name for the article title to facilitate google searches, etc. I encountered a similar dilema on a page I have worked quite a bit on — Red River Rebellion — which is considered by many now not to have been a rebellion at all in the strictest sense of the term. Nevertheless, that is the name that has come down to us and is what the overwhelming majority of people probably use as a search key. Fawcett5 21:51, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Well, I think "revisionism of the worst form" is a bit harsh, hopefully reserved for periods when history is intentionally invented or destroyed. I'm definitely interested in seeing facts rather than propaganda. Anyway, I'm not going to be too picky about the title as long as there are appropriate redirects; I was just looking for some general opinions. —User:Mulad (talk) 17:01, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

• The historians at the Minnesota Historical Society (presumably in cooperation with other historians) use the term "Dakota War of 1862" to describe the conflict. There's not likely to be a label acceptable to everyone, but the purpose of a label is to provide a descriptive summary that's useful.

One one hand, the old label "Sioux Uprising" is familiar to us old folks who grew up with it. The question is whether that is an accurate and useful label. The word Sioux has been adopted by some American Indian groups, but fervently rejected by others. Dakota comes much closer to being a generally accepted name among my acquaintances. If what we're debating is who has the power to label the event, then perhaps there ought to be multiple articles, one from the main stream historians, one from the Dakota, and one from populist history buffs.

What used to be called an "uprising" was a label that laid blame on those who took action and absolved those who were attacked of any complicity. The settlers who were robbed and killed by the Dakota in 1862 may have been totally innocent victims, but the society to which they belonged was complicit in creating the situation in which the killings took place. I'd argue that "uprising" is an inappropriate label. I'm not sure "war" is appropriate either, but it was adopted by the historians who, I presume, have given a lot more thought to the issue than I have. "Conflict" is pretty vague and really doesn't describe a series of events that includes several military (and military-type) battles. Lacking a better term, I'd advocate following the example of the MHS and using "Dakota War of 1862" as a title. BartBee 15:36, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

• As for the most common name for the series of events, while older sources use "Sioux Uprising" (see the dates of citied sources), any students who have used the Minnesota Historical Society textbooks in the past 20 years (which includes nearly all Minnesota students) will know the "Dakota War of 1862" and not the older label. -BartBee 21:32, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Check the list of sources again. There is a book published this spring which uses "Sioux Uprising" in the title. Jonathunder 00:12, 2005 May 9 (UTC)

• As to the use of "Sioux" by Native groups, the Shakopee Mdewakanton use the word, but only sparingly (perhaps as part of marketing their casino to non-Indians).

Their web site URL is http://www.ccsmdc.org/, part of which ("smdc") I assume stands for the Shakopee Medweakanton Dakota Community. The main page title is "Welcome to the Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux Community."

The Mendota Mdewakanton web site is at http://www.mendotadakota.org/, and the title of the main page is "Mendota Mdewakanton Dakota Community." The word "Sioux" cannot be found on the site.

The Prairie Island community web site is at http://www.prairieisland.org/. The main page title is, "Prairie Island Indian Community." That page says, "..the people of Prairie Island welcome you. Our Mdewakanton Dakota community is..."

I got to know members of that community when I lived in Red Wing. "Sioux" is often used as a term of pride, particularly by younger members. Jonathunder 00:12, 2005 May 9 (UTC)

The men I knew on the Intertribal Council 25 years ago when I worked on archaeolgoy projects at Hamline University would roll their eyes at someone who naively used the term "Sioux." They were genuinely offended when someone who knew better used it. The French term was an insult. BartBee 02:34, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

The Upper Sioux Community has a web site at http://www.uppersiouxcommunity-nsn.gov. The title of the main page is "The Upper Sioux Community Pejuhutazizi Oyate." It uses the Dakota name (Pejuhutazizi Oyate) about as often as it uses "Sioux."

The Jackpot Junction web site, on the "Our Culture" page, http://www.jackpotjunction.com/culture/, says, "While Lower Sioux was the name given to our band and our home after treaties with the United States in 1851, members of the Lower Sioux Community are part of the Mdewakanton band of Dakota. Dakota is a word that means "friend." We traditionally called this area Cansa'yapi ("where they marked the trees red")."

The Minnesota Indian Affairs Council web site is at http://www.cri-bsu.org/IA_web/htdocs/tribes/index.html. It uses the term "Sioux" to identify the communities at the Upper and Lower Sioux Agencies: "The four Dakota Communities include: Shakopee Mdewakanton located south of the Twin Cities near Prior Lake; Prairie Island located near Red Wing; Lower Sioux located near Redwood Falls; and Upper Sioux whose lands are near the city of Granite Falls." -BartBee 23:39, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Death toll?

I don't have a dead-tree reference handy, but is there a good accounting of the overall death toll (preferably separated into the Native Americans, civilians, and US troops if any)? I only ask since the Native American massacres page currently says "As many as 800 settlers killed" which seems off by about an order of magnitude, unless I missed something pretty major... —User:Mulad (talk) 17:01, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

The available figures are inexact, in part because the uprising had no clear and obvious beginning point, and in part because many who were wounded later died from their wounds. I've seen estimates of whites killed between 500 to 800. About 150 were killed in major battles:

1. 40 killed in Spirit Lake, Iowa, May 6, 1857
2. 5 killed in Litchfield, Minnesota, August 17, 1862
3. 44 killed at the Redwood Agency, August 18, 1862
4. 16 killed in New Ulm, Minnesota, August 19, 1862
5. 34 killed in New Ulm, Minnesota, August 23, 1862
6. 13 killed in the Battle of Birch Coulee, September 2, 1862

There were also some whites taken captive, who were later executed, particularly at Spirit Lake.

But the greatest number killed were isolated farm families and townspeople in the area surrounding New Ulm in the period from August 18-August 23. Some sources estimate that as many as 400 were killed, many of them women and children. It was this sort of banditry, moreso than the battles themselves, that incited such outrage among settlers; and the Sioux who were ultimately executed were those who the government believed were culpable for the murder of settlers outside the context of any of the battles.

[1]

The Uninvited Co., Inc. 20:37, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

There are now three separate articles on this one conflict. Each has some content the others do not. This one has an edit history going back to August 31, 2004. There is also Minnesota Sioux War 1862 (first edit February 18, 2005) and Dakota War of 1862 which I created as a redirect on April 26, 2005 but which for the past few days has been turned into a fork, basically, of this article. We need to fix this. Jonathunder 02:43, 2005 May 11 (UTC)

I have now merged the articles, though someone who has studied this more heavily will probably have to do some fact/timeline checking. If someone still really wants to move the article to a different name, at the moment I would recommend U.S.-Dakota War of 1862. The good things: the name shows both parties involved, plus the date. It calls it a war, and I think that the number of casualties and the fact that multiple named battles comprise it support that idea. The U.S. never declared war, though arguably the Dakota did (also see these comments at MPR about naming). That page also doesn't have an edit history yet ;-) The bad thing: it's not the most common name (though it isn't vague, which is good, IMHO). —Mulad (talk) 05:48, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Concentration Camp or Fort Snelling stockade?

In the "Aftermath" section the term "concentration camp" is used to describe the confinement of some of the Dakota people after the war, in the winter of 1862-63. I find this not to represent the "neutral point of view" which Wiki articles are supposed to follow. The Wiki article on the term 'concentration camp' says it was not coined until the 1902 Boer War, so no one at the time could have used it to describe the 1700 men, women and children being confined in the stockade at Fort Snelling. Schultz (Duane Schultz, author of "Over the Earth I Came-The Great Sioux Uprising of 1862, St. Martins Press, 1992) says they went there willingly for food and shelter, as well as protection from the whites who had survived the massacres. And if they had used the term 'concentration camp', it would not have had the connotations of Dachau and Auschwitz which it acquired in the 1940's. The facts, presented objectively, are a grim enough indictment of their treatment, without using a term which calls up anachronistic images of Nazi guards, or of British guarding Boers in Africa. I propose that the article say that approximately 1700 Dakotas who had not been convicted of crimes were confined in the Fort Snelling stockade for several months in the winter of 1862-63, and that 300 of them perished of measles and other diseases, before they were shipped west to a reservation where another 300 died over the summer, mostly from lack of food (Schultz, pp 276-284). The term "Sioux Uprising" was the only one used by members of my wife's family from Minnesota. She had an ancestor and other relatives who were captives in the Dakota camp for several weeks in 1862, who survived long after and did not harbor particularly hard feelings. I recommend anyone who really wants to dig into this visit the New Ulm Historical Society, as well as the Minnesota Historical Society, which has the writings of Marion Satterlee. He wrote to many of the white and Lakota survivors years after the events, and collected their reminiscences.He also documented where many of the battles and attacks occurred, right down to the quartersection. Edison 04:05, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Comment on Revisionism and Titles

I have added a necessary postscript concerning the aftermath of the Sioux uprising from a Euroamerican viewpoint. The Minnesota conflict of 1862 is almost unique in being a series of depradatory Native American attacks across a wide front on Euroamerican individuals and families who, with minor although notorious exceptions (Myrick, for example), were not personally responsible for causing any of the official and unofficial acts that gave rise to the legitimate grievances of the Dakota leading up to the uprising. That these innocent parties may have benefitted, at least indirectly, from the policies and crimes that gave rise to the ethnic hatred which precipitated the attacks cannot be denied. Whether the sins of the white race, as a whole, legitimated the admittedly racist attacks on unprotected civilians that followed, also may be a fair subject for debate among ethicists, although I would disagree if the conclusion is that the attacks were justifiable. The ferocity and inhumanity of the attacks cannot be ignored or denied as a matter of historic fact, and to call a series of such attacks, and the reactionary response, a "war" implies a bilateral ambition to join a battle that in fact did not exist. This was an "uprising", regardless of cause, and the popular and official demand upon the U.S. Government to neutralize the Sioux following the uprising was a fair and provoked response to a series of real and reprehensible attacks. For anyone now to bowdlerize descriptions of the acts of the perpetrators is dishonest, as would be any claim that the Dakota, as a whole, were responsible for the attacks. It was recognized at the time, not only by Abraham Lincoln but by others, that the response of the "authorities" in rounding up nearly a thousand "suspects", holding a kangaroo mass trial, and sentencing most of them to death, was an overreaction and an injustice of the first order. This injustice was not allowed to be carried out. While the 38 executions probably were excessive and injust, so were the attacks on the innocent in the first place. (Elcajonfarms 04:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC))

[edit] References and Citations

The citations in this article really need to be cleaned up. Although several good source books and web sites are listed, the statements attributable to each are not cited. And some on-line citation links that do exist, link to an ISD77 web site that is not sourced, and likely not peer-reviewed, as a legitimate source should be. This article needs major work. Appraiser 17:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)