Talk:Sino-French War

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[edit] Winner and Loser

This page[1] is certainly more accurate about the winners and losers of this war:

"While neither side could be considered to have a military victory in the Sino-French War, China was considered the actual loser. China had entered the war to prevent France from destroying the relationship of a protectorate that existed between China and Annam. The Chinese were also eager to avoid having France as a neighbor. China obviously failed in both of these goals. The relationship between China and Annam was severed as the treaties establishing Annam as a French colonial possession were recognized by China. France became China's newest neighbor."

What is the difference between a "de facto victory" and a "victory"? You might say that the first is assumed to be a victory while the second is declared to be a victory (or something else), but that is irrelevant and smacks of semantics. Even this article you gave basically says the French won, though I'm not sure about the part of military victory. After Foochow, French victory in the war was certain. The Chinese had success on the ground, but it was not decisive at all. The fact that they could not fully defeat the French on land, and Foochow of course, brought them to the table.UberCryxic 23:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Another user is trying to change the result again. I think it has been established that the French came out ahead in this struggle. They practically accomplished all of their objectives, especially politically. China essentially agreed to leave the area under French influence. It would not make sense to call the outcome anything but a French victory.UberCryxic 02:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The last user trying to change the result pointed out that a cease-fire favorable to the French does not mean that the French won the war. Ok, that alone does not prove that the French won the war, but the French won in spite of the cease-fire. They had full control of the seas as a result of Foochow and were holding on the ground despite being outnumbered overwhelmingly. Unless your definition of victory includes a French march to Bejing, which would have been logistically insane, then even militarily this is a French victory. However, that the cease-fire was favorable to the French reinforces the notion that this was, in fact, a victory for France.

Something else: normally we don't put diplomatic outcomes in the Result box. Writing "negotiated cease-fire" in this article is equivalent to writing "Versailles Treaty" in the World War I article. But as you can see for yourself, the first thing it says is "Allied victory," and then it proceeds to explain some things. In principle, I would be fine if for this article it read "French victory; negotiated cease-fire."UberCryxic 15:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Based on the current disputes and discussion, I have for now changed the wording to: "negotiated cease-fire; French victory considered by some people" for NPOV reasons. If everyone agrees French was indeed victorious in the war after the discussion, the phrase "considered by .." will be dropped.--64.231.79.66 22:32, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Saying if "everyone agrees" is almost certainly geared towards wanting or ensuring the failure of your proposition. Obviously not everyone will agree that this was a French victory. According to another user (or you maybe, I don't remember), the Chinese Wikipedia had a conflict precisely about this issue. In the French Wikipedia, it says this was a French victory. There is a conflict here, no need to deny it. But the majority view, at least in the West (and certainly in France), is that it was a French victory. In China I wouldn't be surprised if they thought something else.UberCryxic 04:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)