Talk:Singapore

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Welcome! This talkpage is to discuss the article Singapore only. Past discussions can be found within this archive. For discussion regarding Singapore-related articles and issues, please visit the talkpage of the SGpedians' notice board. Enjoy! =)

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To-do list for Singapore:

edit · history · watch · refresh

Improvement of Singapore article Mention urban planning and its significance and how land use and density is distributed and tie in with rest of content To include a section on Singapore Science & Technology Development of Singapore's sub-pages More detail on to South Indian Hindu empires (e.g. the Majpahit) that preceded the Malay Sultanates and influenced the course of history and culture for Malaya and Singapore. Expand and improve Government of Singapore (moving less prominent material from Politics of Singapore)which tends to come across as personal and subjective, and create a section to be integrated into the Singapore article and tied in with rest of content More balanced "treatment" (or coverage) of all races and religions rather than a centrism which focuses on one more than the others. More insight into colonial era British defence forces, including the Singapore Volunteer Corps, the Scottish regiment, the British Navy presence, the various batteries posted all over the island. Built in 1835, the Church of St Gregory the Illuminator was consecrated on 26 March 1836. For over 165 years, St Gregory’s Church has bonded the Armenian community of Singapore and helped preserve its identity. Reference http://www.amassia.com.au/church.htm Review & Revision, FAC Process Bring over references from subpages. Others as appropriate.

Archives
Archive 1
Archive 2

Contents 1 excessive fotos 2 Protection 3 Telugu TV Channels 4 Democracy 5 Why move it? 6 government-linked 7 Demographics 8 Singaporean Cuisine 9 Why are there scare quotes here? 10 This article was quoted in a local Saipan daily

[edit] excessive fotos

don't you think this topic putting too many photos? plus what you put are mainly unrelated photos. Please no more hard SELL70.52.74.204 00:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

to the user Rifleman 82, would you please explain to me why do you like to revert these photos that are not related to the topic of economy? thank you very much! 70.55.135.115 01:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

To the IP address(es), care to explain "why" those photos are 'not' related to the economy? Perhaps if you have bothered to give your reasonings those reverts need not have happened. Nic tan33 01:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I personally think that these photos are not related to the topic of economy. These photos I removed are basically good for the topic of tourism of Singapore. 70.55.135.115 02:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Is tourism unrelated to the economy?--Huaiwei 13:19, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protection

Due to edit warring, I've protected the page. Folks, please discuss the reasons for photos or removing them. (And, 70.55.135.xxx, your explanation above is not good enough. Please make a good faith effort to discuss.) --Nlu (talk) 07:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello? thanks for giving me to explain. The photos I rm is around 300X. It is quite big and I resized the photos. I wrote down on edit summary and discussion board. I asked the admin. Rifleman 82. However, as you see, he didn't answer me anything above (even from his talk page). He didn't give me any warning and simply send the request for block, I don't think it is fair and accurate. For me I don't object any admin block me, but I can't accept someone put false accusation on my part. Thank you for your attention! 70.55.135.115 07:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

70.55.135.115 is a known trouble-maker in Singapore passport [1], and his "improvements" to this article appear to be nothing more than childish reflex when his "downplaying of Singaporean hardsell" was twarted. Hardly surprising, therefore, that he couldnt give a better reason for removing some perfectly normal pictures here.--Huaiwei 15:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that not all pics need to be 300 pixels wide. The pictures themselves, however, are neither too many nor too few. They are just right, and appropriate for each section. -Amatulic 23:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe it would be fair to say that there is consensus for the article as it is, and the anon IP's changes are just flying against that, and should stop (even if necessary, by block for disruption). As far as I can see, no consensus to resize. IMO it's perfectly fine. – Chacor 11:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

what do you mean by consensus? did you ask them one by one and record them one by one? I told you, I fear no block, go ahead and block me. 70.52.72.7 13:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Consensus if you are genuinely interested to know just how concensus-building in wikipedia comes about. You need not interrogate any member on matters as basic as this. It would be most helpful if the initiative which drove you to remove pictures could be somehow directed towards gaining familiarity with how this place operates.--Huaiwei 15:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Telugu TV Channels

Telugu speaking community is second largest Indian community in Singapore. But there is no Telugu TV channels are available in Singapore to entertain them. StarHub has received numerous request to introduce Telugu TV channels. But StarHub has already introduced Tamil and Hindi TV channels. It will be happy if Telugu TV channels are introduced in Singapore. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.67.140.42 (talk • contribs) 21:15, 16 November 2006.

Well, I guess you could write to MediaCorp or StarHub about that. Despite rumours to the contrary, we lowly Wikipedia editors don't actually have the power to introduce new television channels. -ryand 16:23, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

According to the 2000 Singapore census, less than 14% of the Indian population speaks languages "other" than the official ones, and the Telugu percentage is likely much lower. Also this page indicates that only about 600 people in Singapore speak Telugu; hardly enough to warrant a whole TV channel. That number is very likely out of date, but it makes me skeptical that Telugu speakers comprise the "second largest" Indian community. -Amatulic 02:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Democracy

How democratic is Singapore? Find out in the Economist Intelligence Unit's new survey: http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/DEMOCRACY_INDEX_2007_v3.pdf (Answer: ranked 84th out of 167 countries in the world, below Albania and Malaysia but above Iraq. Any brave soul want to add this to main article?)

Wow.. congrat on the find! However, since the articles of the first ranked Sweden and the last ranked North Korea make no mention of their rankings, being somewhere in the middle of the ranking is hardly a thing to be excited about or noteworthy. --Vsion 08:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The survey has only just been published, so perhaps that's no surprise.

Singapore is not described as a "democracy", or a "flawed democracy" (like Malaysia), but a a third division "hybrid" of authoritarianism and democracy. That surely is noteworthy. Also, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, so it should have "encyclopedic" coverage of its subjects. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.117.143.29 (talk • contribs).

I added that information to International rankings of Singapore, I find it quite interesting myself. Nonetheless, Singapore is still a potential Feature Article candidate, and several reviewers have advised against adding most of these rankings into the article. The article does mention Worldwide Press Freedom Index (140th out of 167) which is more well-known.--Vsion 02:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Singapore is not a democracy, nor a hyrid of democracy and something else. Singapore has democratic elements. It is not an "authoritarian democracy", nor a "democratic authoritarian state". It is a dominant-party republic with little checks and balances. Think French Revolution, without the guillotine, and without the massive faction upheavals. John Riemann Soong 10:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations to Singapore for beating Iraq, which turned "democratic" thanks to American might! :D--Huaiwei 16:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I would hope (or expect) that between the 1st world and 3rd world countries in that "hybrid democracy" category, the 1st-world ones would beat the 3rd-world ones. What I find interesting is that Singapore shares this category with what seem (to me) to be mostly 3rd-world countries. -Amatulic 02:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Singapore's Senior Minister Goh Chok Tong himself mused that Singapore is "first world" economically, but "third world" socially.--Huaiwei 12:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

(reply to Amatulic) Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea were in similar situation not too long ago. The resistance to change the political system is somehow stronger in Singapore. Or, one can argue that there hasn't been a serious event in Singapore that would have prompted the change, unlike in the other three Asian Dragons (Lee TengHui's rule, 1997-handover, corruption, etc.). --Vsion 15:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Interesting observation. The 1997 handover of Hongkong might be a similar scale of event to the independence of Singapore several decades ago, but oddly the transformation from British rule to independence left Singapore's government in a more authoritarian state than the UK's. Maybe resistance to change is due to the one-party situation. Or maybe change simply isn't necessary because Singapore's current situation works perfectly well for them. And anyway, a "pure" democracy isn't necessarily a good thing if it means majority can trample on individual rights.

In my view, the only important thing sorely lacking in Singapore is a press free from censorship (and if Singapore were located in the European region, I believe the lack of a free press would disqualify Singapore from membership in the EU). On the other hand, when I visit Singapore, I find the Straits Times to be a remarkably unfettered newspaper (better quality than most US news sources), although overt criticism of the government doesn't really appear in it. -Amatulic 17:19, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

"Individual rights" wasn't the issue of the 1960s. Back then, British's overwhelming concern was that Singapore would become a communist state. That could easily have happened because of the Chinese majority and Singapore could have become the fifth column of communist expansion. This would be detrimental to Britain's interests in the region. For this reason, the British supported the "undemocratic" measure, Operation Coldstore, to arrest 100+ pro-communists under the Internal Security Act (ISA) in 1963. PAP's dominance started from there. I agree with your comments on local press, they virtually play no role in providing checks on government mismanagement and power abuse. --Vsion 19:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why move it?

Why has the page been moved from Singapore to Singapore (country)? It is the most important article named Singapore and I see no reason why this should be done (it causes redirects) --TheTallOne 16:23, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Reverted. Terence Ong 16:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Strong agree, please discuss such radical moves on requested moves and/or article talkpage. - SpLoT _{(*T* C+u+g+v)} 17:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

it is noted that the user who initiated the move is a relative newbie. Some form of guidance may be needed here.--Huaiwei 17:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe a clueless newbie, needs some help along the way. Who wants to guide this newbie? Terence Ong 17:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

In the United States, there are some towns named "Singapore"; I can't remember which exactly, but US towns have an apparent tradition of copying the names of international places. (e.g. Lebanon, Maine.) John Riemann Soong 00:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Then we should use a disambig page with Singapore retaining the main article, as per convention with Lebanon (Lebanon (disambiguation)). – Chacor 08:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] government-linked

"Government-linked corporation" is a propaganda term for state-owned institutions. I have not seen it in common parlance except among state documents and overzealous Straits Times reports. John Riemann Soong 10:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I already pointed it out to the user in question that it was POV, and he seems to have accepted our NPOV policy, per his reply to my talk page. – Chacor 10:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Whether it is NPOV is beside the point. This is the term used in Singapore to describe them. GLC should be used; if necessary explanatory notes can be used in parantheses or footnotes. --Rifleman 82 10:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

(To John) Did the propaganda office write this article: Government Linked Companies? I have seen the terms used by non-state publications and outside the Singapore context. "State-owned institutions" are different entities. "Government-linked companies" is more commonly used than "Government-controlled companies", probably because it is more precise. I suggest the change to "government-linked corporation".--Vsion 15:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Having to call them GLCs is like having to refer to North Korea as the DPRK all the time, despite the fact that we know the "democratic" qualifier (in our case, the "government-linked" euphemism) is generally just to honey-up the term. GLCs, among other things, are entities with significant stake (generally a majority) invested into them by the state corporation Temasek Holdings, which puts them under the umbrella of state industry. Let us not pander to government terms just because that's what the government wishes us to call them, or because it's stated in our textbooks, which are far from neutral. The last time I remembered, we didn't refer to the Republic of China as Chinese Taipei just because Beijing's textbooks said so. We have an article on Chinese Taipei, to explain its use, but that's another thing entirely. John Riemann Soong 12:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

On that PRK commentary, it really depends on where you are coming from. It has been argued, that Communism is also a form of democracy. Its only the liberal democracies, which happen to be the most popularised form of democracy (and which many assume, quite erronously, to be "true democracy") thanks to western democracies, who paint communism as anti-democratic.--Huaiwei 00:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Eh? I think most of the world communists have rejected Juche as one of their own as well as National Bolshevism. There would be a difference between a "Democratic Commune of Paris" (if it existed today) and the DRPK. John Riemann Soong 16:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

(To John) Government Linked Companies is a well-established term with fairly precise meaning and commonly used throughout the world, it even has a wikipedia article to explain it and the article doesn't say it is an euphemism. Where did you get the idea that it is a euphemism? I'm quite surprised you are confusing it with "state industry". Privatisation of services has been the hallmark of the PAP government for over 30 years. I guess the school textbooks forget to explain the differences. --Vsion 07:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Government-linked companies are government-owned companies. All companies under the hierarchy of Temasek Holdings are effectively government-controlled companes what. That'd be like calling the Straits Times not a state-run newspaper. There are distinctions - for example the editorial staff at Today - though under SPH - are considerably more lenient than the Straits Times and more disjunct from the establishment. (Bhavani actually had to write to Today in order to get mr brown fired, for example). But they are still all state industries. John Riemann Soong 16:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

That is outright inaccurate. "linked", "owned" and "controlled" are not synonyms, and each can exist without the other. If you consider all companies "under the hierarchy of Temasek Holdings" as "government-controlled companes", then I suppose the Bank of China, Standard Chartered Bank, Shin Corporation, Telekom Malaysia, etc, are all "Singapore Govenment-owned" companies? And yes, I will not call the Straits Times a "state-run newspaper".--Huaiwei 16:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It isn't a state-run newspaper? The ST is as about independent from the government as the Pravda was. Anyhow, my trouble is with calling companies in which the SG government owns the majority of the stock as simply "government-linked" when they play a dominant role in the economy. The companies in which the SG government just owns a small stake don't actually "dominate the economy", so I don't mind the term "GLC" for them. John Riemann Soong 23:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

When a company dominates an industrial sector or market, it is call a monopoly. The monopolising company can be a state-company, government-linked, public, or private. --Vsion 14:41, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Since Creative Technology happens to dominate the soundcard business, and Osim International dominates the message chair sector, are we supposed to call them GLCs next?--Huaiwei 15:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstood me. The significant companies that *are* controlled by the government, dominate the economy, that is most of the so-called GLCs in which the government have more than a 50% stake in them are really state industries. Besides Creative Technology doesn't really "dominate" the soundcard business, nor OSIM, not in the authoritative way that the SPH does over the others (through government regulation). John Riemann Soong 11:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Demographics

A change I made earlier stating Singapore is the fourth most densely populated country in the world is reverted, yet in the article Demographics of Singapore, the first sentence wrote "Singapore's demographics describe a population of 4.48 million, as estimated by the last census in 2005 and is the fourth most densely populated country in the world." So is it the second or the fourth? Mr.Clown 15:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Second, according to List of countries by population density --Vsion 16:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

But in List of countries, Hong Kong and Macao are included and in most international rankings, they are treated as individual countries, but i know their special status and relation with China. --Mr.Clown 02:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

And there must be a reason why that list states "countries and regions", and that Hong Kong and Macau were indicated in italics.--Huaiwei 13:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Singaporean Cuisine

I got the impression from a brief visit to Singapore that "Food is a national pastime," is kind of a nationalistic catchphrase in Signapore, but perhaps it ought to be quoted as such rather than stated as fact. It has always challenged my capacities of linguistic comprehension that the term "pastime" can be applied to an activity which an individual must engage in or die. Everyone in every country eats a lot of that country's own food. Several times a day. What differentiates the way Singaporeans eat their food from the way Americans eat hamburgers or the way Mexicans eat tacos or the way Northern Indians eat naan other than local pride? If nothing, then the phrase should only be included in the wikipedia article on Singapore as a localist catchphrase. --Techgeist 16:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

When the activity is referred to as a "pastime", it means it has become a daily activity which transgress mere "needs", but as a indulgance people partake in as and when they feel like it, and very often beyond normal mealtimes. And they get lots of company in this regard. It does seem true that the vast majority of social activities in Singapore revolve around food at every level of society.--Huaiwei 17:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Well for all you know other countries rely on IV tubes instead. :P But yeah, I get what you mean. I guess it deals more with the role that hawker stalls play in the culture. For example, (one can tell Lee Hsien Loong rarely eats at hawker stalls because he doesn't seem to know that hawker stalls generally do not serve mee siam without cockles. (Which in turn shows the establishment's disconnect with local culture.) John Riemann Soong 17:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Erm...I think its "do not serve mee siam with cockles". :D--Huaiwei 00:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Or perhaps "always serve mee siam without cockles". Double-negatve error, yeah. :D John Riemann Soong 06:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why are there scare quotes here?

Later, they became home to many Japanese generals after the "fall of Singapore" during World War II.

See what style guide has to say on the subject. patsw 22:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article was quoted in a local Saipan daily

"Moreover, according to an online encyclopedia, Singapore 'is aggressively pushing for the permanent assimilation of these foreign workers by offering easier processing time for permanent residency or citizenship.'" See http://www.mvariety.com/calendar/dec/07/editorialpage/editorial01.htm

C.m.jones 23:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)