Talk:Singapore Changi Airport

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Here are some tasks you can do:
  • Requests: Trim down lead paragraphs, as per WP:LEAD. Please discuss on talk page first!
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  • NPOV: Double-check 2nd and 3rd lead paragraphs.
  • Other: Possibly remove "commercially important persons" from 3rd lead.

Archive 1: December 2004 to September 2006

Contents

[edit] Names in multiple languages

Currently, Changi Airport's many names in many languages are listed both in the infobox and in the first sentence. Why is this necessary? Can't we just list them once in the infobox, where they don't disrupt the flow of the text?

(Please note that "some other articles do it this way too" is not a valid argument in my book; see also [1].) Jpatokal 04:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as folks in some wikiproject are concerned, however, consistency in presentation does preoccupy alot of their time. To dismiss the fact that other articles may also include an extensive list of names in the introduction (with each language clearly indicated) seems a little disjointed from the community direction here.--Huaiwei 13:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
WP:AIRPORTS is neither here nor there with this issue, so lets not flog that horse again! The relevant guidelines are WP:LEAD and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)#Include alternatives. A useful quote from the former:
"If there is a significant number of alternative names or forms it may be helpful to keep only the most common two or three in the first paragraph and a list of them in a separate section or footnote to avoid cluttering the lead; see Freyr for an example of this."
I understand the intent of that policy. But mind tell us which name is "most common" in this context then?--Huaiwei 17:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Um, English? Jpatokal 09:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh really? So are you suggesting English is the "most common" language used in Singapore?--Huaiwei 15:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
This would seem to be pointing out the obvious, but yes?
Please provide any statistical evidence stating that English is the "most common" language used in Singapore.--Huaiwei 15:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I can only presume you think this is funny. You will note that, for example, Languages of Singapore notes that English is "the business and working language" and is "used to teach all academic subjects in primary schools". SingStat [2] notes that 71% of Singaporeans are literate in English (meaning that an even higher percentage can speak it!), as opposed to 65% for Chinese. Happy now? Jpatokal 06:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Why you should find humour in a serious topic as this is beyond me. Let me stress, that the "most common" language used in Singapore is not neccesarily correlated with literacy. I may understand English, but that dosent mean I want to use it. Census statistics from the same source clearly shows that "Vernacular languages continue to be the most common languages spoken at home by the three main ethnic groups", and not English. Wikipedia is based on common usage, and not literacy.--Huaiwei 17:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Naturally each ethnic group has its own mother tongue, but what's the one language that binds them all together? English. What language would a Chinese person speak to an Indian? English. If signs or literature are written in only one language in Singapore, what language is used? English. Therefore, English is the most common language in Singapore. I've given my arguments and presented the facts, now it's your turn: if it's not English, then what language is more common? Jpatokal 10:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I would be greatly amused if National Education worms its way into wikpiedia in this manner! ;) A "binding language" is not neccesarily the most "common language". What you just wrote is only what you assume is correct hypethetically. Do you have statistical data to support your claim, which I have, and which already answers your last question? Meanwhile, may I just point out, that the "binding language" for Singaporeans is not just English. Malay (or more specifically, Baba Malay) happens to be the lingua-franca for Singaporeans for centuries, and remains so for most Singaporeans in their 40s onwards. I am beginning to wonder just how familiar are you with Singapore not to be aware of this basic fact?--Huaiwei 10:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Let's stick to the facts instead of going into ad hominem, and I'll stay quiet about your spelling and grammar mistakes. Remember, this is an encyclopedia, so the target audience is literate readers, and the stats above are perfectly clear on the point that the language Singaporeans are most likely to be literate in is English. Do you dispute this? If yes, where is your evidence? Jpatokal 04:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I draw my comments from the same facts you tried to use, and which you obviously cannot utilise properly. This is Singapore, and if you want to use Singaporean statistics, you have to apply it in the Singapore context. You basically ripped out information from one section on literacy, and proclaims that language as the most commonly used language. The exact same source counters this assumption with statistical facts. You also fail to notice, that in subsequent statistics, there is higher literacy in Chinese and Malay for their respective ethnic groups by significant amounts, both of which also make up a far larger proportion of Singapore's total population. So I throw the question back at you. Are you ignoring certain sections of that same source in order to fit your agenda?--Huaiwei 11:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
That was a yes or no question. "The language Singaporeans are most likely to be literate in is English. Do you dispute this?" Yes or no? Jpatokal 14:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I dispute your understanding of the relationship between literacy and common usage. I am not compelled to answer a question I deem inappriopriate in this regard.--Huaiwei 16:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Just to make this crystal clear: I'm fine with keeping the other official languages in the infobox, but this is the English Wikipedia for an English-speaking country and there is no point in cluttering the first paragraph with the rest. Tell me which is more important for the average Wikipedia reader: the fact that Changi is "a major aviation hub" (now on the third line in my browser), or that the Mandarin pinyin reading of its hanzi is "Xīnjiāpō Zhāngyí Jīchǎng" (now on the first)? Jpatokal 08:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Relative importance is but a matter of personal tastes. I personally consider the name of an entity the most important element over its quality and characteristics. And here in Singapore, where there are four official languages, it is only proper that all four names should be included as local languages in the introduction. It may add clutter for the unitiated, but is vital in multi-cultural Singapore.--Huaiwei 15:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
So should we also list the names of Changi Airport in Icelandic, Telugu and Proto-Quechua? This is an article about an airport, not multi-culturalism, and its audience is not just four million Singaporeans with axes to grind, but eight billion people in the entire world. Again, what is wrong with listing the languages only in the infobox? Jpatokal 06:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Are Icelandic, Telugu and Proto-Quechua official languages in Singapore? I can only presume you think this is funny. That official languages are added to an article related to that political entity is not confined to Singapore-related articles. Would you like to propose removing all non-English titles in all articles across wikipedia, instead of choosing to nitpick on this one? I have already stated why I object to using an infobox compared to inline-texts. You only need to open your eyes and read and type less often.--Huaiwei 17:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The only argument I see from you is that it's "only proper" to keep the names in the lead, which is a non-sequitur. (In my opinion, it's "only proper" to keep them out!). Again, I have nothing against listing the official languages in the infobox, but they are not of primary importance for this English-language article.
Incidentally, would you be in favor of listing the names of Delhi Airport in India's official languages in the first paragraph -- all 22 of them? Or you would find that kind of silly? Jpatokal 10:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
India has 23 official languages, but only Hindi and English are stipulated for official usage by the Central government. In Singapore, however, all four languages enjoy the same privileges in official capacity. While I explained why it is "proper" to add all four official languages, your only reasoning for their removal is nothing more than "removing clutter". NPOV vs presentation. Who prevails? The answer is obvious.--Huaiwei 10:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Sigh. I agree that it's obvious, and have solicited third opinions from Wikipedia talk:Lead section in the hope that they'll enlighten you too. Jpatokal 04:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
When we have someone who actually thinks Singapore is in China, I suppose that's third opinions for you. Perhaps the path of enlightenment goes the opposite way than what you intend.--Huaiwei 11:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Resetting indentation... I agree that the alternate names should only be in the infobox. English and maybe one other should be in the first paragraph. This is the English language WP, so English should be the first thing listed in every article. In the Chinese WP, Chinese should be listed first, and English can go in the infobox if that's what the editors decide. Having too many languages clutters up the paragraph, and if they're in the infobox, they are still prominent and at the top of the page. A better example than India is South Africa, with 10 or so official languages, all of which actually are "official". Should Johannesburg Int'l have all of them in the first paragraph? DB (talk) 15:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
As far as I can see, the English name does lead this article, so I do not see it contravening your first assertion, and your comparision with non-English sites. What constitutes "clutter" is but a matter of astetics and personal preferences. You need not compare Singapore's case with extreme examples such as India or South Africa, because Singapore-related articles arent bounded by naming conventions for their respective articles. Could you show any wikipedia-wide convention directly ruling out the possibility of having multiple official language names in the introduction?
After so long, this has been the first time any wikipedian has attempted to argue against the Singaporean practise of displaying all four languages. Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore) went through countless reviews and reached FA status, but no one complained about its multi-lingual introduction. Some other airport pages, including Hong Kong International Airport, have an even more unweldy introduction (and Hong Kong, an FA, has almost the entire first paragraph to itself just on various versions of its name alone), yet I dont see either editor here complaining. So care to explain the sudden keen interest in this and other Singapore-related articles?--Huaiwei 16:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I never really thought about it until this discussion came up. Now that I look at it, the Hong Kong one looks crappy too. DB (talk) 23:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
And why arent we surprised by that comment? ;) It would be interesting to observe how a tiny number of individuals are going to go round telling others how to present their articles over and beyond the MoS...with "looks crappy" being the main source of contention.--Huaiwei 17:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Daddy mack, the reason I've editing on Wikipedia for three years and counting is to make this a better, more informative and more readable encyclopedia — and I presume this drives you too? I think the current opening sentence with its slew of names violates WP:LEAD, and so far the numbers are four in favor (me, DB, Circeus, Sebastian) and two against (you and wangi). Jpatokal 02:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Lord justice, since you are so inclined to WikiLawyering, may I seek your enlightenment on just how the current opening sentence violates WP:LEAD? The closest I could find were the words "clear and accessible style", which is, of coz, purely subjective. The same guideline specifies that the lead "may include variations," which aptly descripes what this article does. If these articles are indeed a violation of WP:LEAD, then care to explain how they could reach FA status, and how this could become a GA? And you can spare your effort finding "concensus" through numbers. Is Wikipedia an experiement in democracy? yes? no?. You go check it up yourself.--Huaiwei 12:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
You know, I really haven't been argumentative here, and the admins are already annoyed with you for picking fights with people. You might want to watch how you phrase your replies. Any time someone points out something that should be changed in a Singapore-related article, you seem to take it as an attack on the entire country. DB (talk) 05:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe there is a distinctive difference between disagreeing over facts/presentation and picking a fight. Would you mind showing evidence for this accusation, and could you please list me the specific admins who were annoyed at this? It appears that I arent the only one who needs to "watch my phrasing", because "picking a fight" certainly does not sound very cordial. If you think I take your actions as being targetted against an entire country, then that is merely your deduction. I do, however, have an issue with individuals who choose not to appreciate the fact that there ARE location-specific articles who attempt to keep to a certain standardised presentation format (as is the case for sg-related and hk-related articles), just as you insist on keeping all aviation-related articles to another format. So in what way do your "standardisation rules" overide that of other "standardisation guidelines"? What utter hypocrisy.--Huaiwei 12:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Skimming your talk page for block notices, I found that Joelito, WinHunter, William M. Connolley, and novacatz all blocked and/or chastised you for fighting or edit-warring. And yes, whenever someone starts pointing out parts of a Singapore-related article that should be changed, you immediately respond very defensively by asking why they are trying to invade Singapore-related articles. It's not all articles about Singapore; it's this one. Furthermore, overarching WP-wide guidelines (such as how to format the lead paragraph) do override specific content guidelines on articles for individual countries. In case you didn't notice, no one has just gone through and removed the text in question. We are trying to say why it should be removed, though. These aren't my guidelines. The paragaph was tagged for fixing by someone else. DB (talk) 15:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Lets put things in perspective here. Are each of these admins "annoyed with me for picking fights with people"? Did you solicite their opinions? These admins were trying their best to contain a long-drawn political dispute I have with another specific individual, so in what way does that amount to holding a personal annoyance against me as a person? Seriously, if you are just trying to say you are the one feeling annoyed, just say so. There is no need to implicate others. And of course. In what way is that dispute related to this dispute over here?
You comment that "whenever someone starts pointing out parts of a Singapore-related article that should be changed, you immediately respond very defensively by asking why they are trying to invade Singapore-related articles" followed by "It's not all articles about Singapore; it's this one." Very interesting and amusing. I would certainly love to see you justifying that statement above with all relevant diffs. And yes, I would safely assume "whenever" equates to "every single time". Show it. Oh, and care to comment why this seems to happen only in this article?
You comment, that "overarching WP-wide guidelines (such as how to format the lead paragraph) do override specific content guidelines on articles for individual countries." Is this an assumption, or is this based on relevant guidelines? Show it.
As for the final statements, what makes you feel they are neccesary? Are wikipedians not entitled to comment on a proposal until they have come into effect? Is there a need to remind that this is merely a proposal, as thou others are censored from commenting until it is too late? As for what constitutes "your" guidelines, I dont suppose its an entirely alien concept for you to assume "ownership" of wikipedia's assets? I am still amused by your comments on the order of continents in Airline destinations, for some reason. ;)--Huaiwei 16:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Interesting you bring that article up, since your reply to my comments on the Continental Airlines destinations article got you blocked for a week. DB (talk) 23:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Resetting indentation...

And I tought I brought up Airline destinations, not Continental Airlines destinations. But since we are at it, are you suggesting the said admin blocked me for a week because he was "annoyed with me"?--Huaiwei 07:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd been very careful not to state anything here until there was a greater consensus and the hostilities had ended, but apparently that's not going to happen. I suppose it's time to the throw the proverbial hat into the ring. While I do see the importance of having the name in multiple languages, namely the locally important ones, I have to say that having them in the infobox serves the exact same purpose just as well. The only thing that's different is the name of the language which it is in does not show up in the infobox. However, if you don't understand Pinyin, for example, it does no good to be told that the name is in fact in Pinyin. Almost everybody skips over the names in languages they are unfamiliar with anyway and Singaporeans are no different. If we were to add the name in Spanish, French, German, etc. we'd see them speedily removed. On a side note, I was the one that put it in the To-do list to trim down the lead paragraphs. They are fairly choppy to read and even I could not make out all of what it says in the first reading. As per WP:LEAD:
The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and describing its notable controversies, if there are any. It should be between one and four paragraphs long, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, and should be written in a clear and accessible style so that the reader is encouraged to read the rest of the article.
Do the lead paragraphs in this article meet that? Not that I can see. I'll be soliciting the opinions of other editors who have contributed to this article in order to get their feedback here, and possibly a few admins as well. The only thing I can say is that this sounds like a violation of WP:POINT. thadius856talk 16:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I do not think we should only have the alt names in the infobox. Thanks/wangi 13:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Can you explain your reasoning? Jpatokal 16:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

--- observations by an Admin there is a consensus to remove some of the titles in other languages. As a lot of uses do not have east Asian character support most people see the Chinese and Tamil versions would appear as ???? to most users. As per wikipedia standards wikipedia should not be browser or extension specific it should be readable to every one. And as such I am going to remove the said material. please do not go against wikipedia standards and consensus and re add them Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 16:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I do believe that Huaiwei may be somewhat confrontational. That's not a good thing. I also note that there are about 3 or 4 editors who have voiced their rather strong opinions about the other languages. I personally don't think the other languages should be in the text if another place could be found to put them. However, it is important to note that most articles tended by SGpedians consistently have the names in the other languages. This issue should not be discussed alone in this article; it should be discussed as a whole. Until the issue can be resolved, and unless the presence of the other names explicitly violates rules, the status quo which has existed for several reviews should remain. --Rifleman 82 17:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
There is no concensus to remove only Asian-script text in this article, and is it not a wikiwide-concensus to do so too. Removing them at this time by claiming "standards and concensus" when they do not exist goes against wikipedian guidelines.--Huaiwei 02:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I came across this article as I noticed the reversion and have some thoughts. What is the airport called on the road signs to the airport ? - Do the various different languages exist on all the roadsigns and on the terminal building. If so, then leave the article as is, but if not, then simply display the name displayed and any English translation as necessary. London Heathrow Airport has potentially dozens of different names around the world, including at least 4 additional different names in Britain & Ireland alone (the Scots, Gaelic, Welsh and Irish). Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 18:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Although I am not a native Singaporean, can I add that Singapore holds all 4 languages as her official languages, and this itself is a good enough reason to have the name of the airport in its four different languages listed here. On another note, for naming problems, wouldn't it be better for the locals to hold a general concensus on what is best for the page; after all, it is a reflection of Singapore and her image. le petit vagabond 18:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
In response to User:Heligoland: I cannot recall what *exactly* is written at Changi Airport. However, to my knowledge, all government-owned buildings (schools, community centers, ministries, police stations) have their names written outside in all four languages. English is the most prominent, but I must emphasize that all four languages are included. On the streets, only English is used, with certain exceptions such as Chinatown, and more touristy spots where Japanese may occur. --Rifleman 82 19:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Sg-related articles are actually working towards a presentation style which mimics that of some government buildings: Four official names proudly displayed at or near the entrance, but the main building name in English for all to see from afar. Thus, wikipedian articles have their article names in English where appriopriate, but show the other official languages in the leading sentence. Wikipedia is not a road signboard, and is not restricted by the amount of metal space, just as it is not paper and is not restricted by a physical page.--Huaiwei 02:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." -William Shakespeare
As I see it, the fact that government buildings in Singapore have multiple languages on them is unimportant. Where I live, in San Jose, California, the demographics show a very broad racial makeup. Many of our restaurants and businesses have names in English, Spanish, and at least 2 Asian languages (Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Cantonese, Tagalog, Mandarin, etc etc!). Even more impressive is that you'll very rarely find a car dealership in the region that deals in less than 15 languages/dialects or doesn't advertise this. Does that mean an article on one of them should include all of the names? No! Perhaps they might be useful in an infobox, but the names in other languages are largely unimportant and are definitely undeserving of being placed in the lead itself as implied in WP:LEAD and complicates matters regarding WP:0.5. While Singapore and the United States may have different official languages, common usage is more important than what is and isn't officially recognized. Open the article I linked above and you'll notice that the proper name of my city is The City of San Jose, though it's rarely spoken or written; the title reflects this and it's only mentioned as a blurb at the end of the lead. thadius856talk 22:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
But the difference is we are not asking to list 15 languages, nor are we listing every language which appears in roadsigns anywhere in Singapore. We are listing names only in the four official languages. Yes, common usage is important, but that is precisely why the article name itself conforms to this standard. Are there any wikipedian guidelines which specify less common names must be removed from the leading paragraphs?--Huaiwei 02:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
From WP:LEAD:
"The relative weight given to points in the lead should reflect the relative weight given to each in the remainder of the article."
"A significant argument not mentioned after the lead should not be mentioned in the lead."
From WP:PERFECT:
"A perfect Wikipedia article...
..."starts with a clear description of the subject; the lead introduces and explains the subject and its significance clearly and accurately, without going into excessive detail."
..."is engaging; the language is descriptive and has an interesting, encyclopedic tone."
In WP:1.0, it has been proposed that only the lead section of most articles be included, unless they are of higher importance, which this airport is not in the grand scheme of things. Do you not agree that if this were to happen, the current lead would be a disservice to most readers? thadius856talk 05:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
All relevant points you sourced from the above two are once again a matter of personal tastes, and does not directly rule out current practises in this article. What you pointed out from WP:LEAD refers to what factual points or argument should be discussed in the leading paragraphs. The various names of a specific entity hardly amount to being a "factual point" or "argument" in my book, even if you consider them as such. WP:PERFECT talks about being informative "without going into excessive detail". What you consider as being "excessive" may be considered "informative" for another reader (and I do notice folks who usually consider it "excessive" are North American individuals who also happen to find no reason to install any language reader for any language outside the Euro-American sphere. WP:BIAS seems relevant here as well). But how is WP:1.0 relevant to this discussion, anyhow?--Huaiwei 07:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Personally I think the English and Chinese names should be in the lead, with the other official names as a footnote (compare with SIN's offical website which only has those languages available). However I don't really think there's anything wrong with having all the official names in the lead... /wangi 23:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd have to agree with you, Wangi, that Chinese should remain—I'm not sure that was ever contested by anybody. But pinyin, Tamil and Malay are not needed. thadius856talk 05:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Strongly disagree. Why should Chinese be included, but not the other two? As Vision says, doing so introduces a grave bias as far as local context is concerned. In fact, I have to point out ethnic Malays did express unhappiness over the sole inclusion of Chinese translations in some sg-related articles early on in the project, and went about adding Malay names. This is only understandable, and the subsequent practise of having all four names included should be sustained.--Huaiwei 07:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
As stated above, I've no problem with keeping all four (hang me now, "WP:AIRPORTS" and on the same "side" as Huaiwei! ;). However the airport's website itself only has options for English and Chinese - do they devalue the other official languages of Singapore? BTW, what's shown in the airport on signs, all four/five languages? Thanks/wangi 00:03, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Keep all 4. It only takes 150 Bytes, no big deal. All four are official names, and removing any one (or two) constitutes systemic bias. Bear in mind that these are useful information, especially to non-native-english and multilingual readers. I personally find the inclusion of Chinese name very helpful. And since it has an official chinese name, it should be presented upfront, following the english name; same for Malay and Tamil. It may not be useful to all of you, but please be considerate to other readers and fellow contributors. Again, it only takes 150 bytes; after all, we presented the entire La Marseillaise in French without any complaints. --Vsion 06:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
While this page only has 4 languages and may or may not look cluttered (personally, I think it does), there are other countries with even more - such as South Africa, which I mentioned - so the question is where to draw the line. I don't think the people here support listing all 10 of South Africa's official languages on all the articles, so how many is too many? DB (talk) 20:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Unless you (or anybody) wishes to go on a crusade to purge wikipedia of undesirable alternate language names, and unless there are wikipedia-wide rules which specifically prohibit these names, I think that the presence/absence/line drawn should be dictated by a consensus of the people in those wikiprojects tending to the articles. Uniformity and consistency is definitely a good thing but these policy issues really shouldn't be discussed in this page: Talk:Singapore Changi Airport, with this limited number of respondents. Side note: I think the pinyin should go because pinyin isn't one of the 4 languages in Singapore. Merely a representation. --Rifleman 82 20:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Not particularly. I was also under the impression that WP:LEAD dictated that multiple languages shouldn't be listed. It looks like there's a proposal for that on the talk page, but until that's officially added to the Manual of Style, I guess it makes sense to evaluate on a case-by-case basis. I agree that Pinyin should be dropped though. Maybe a compromise here? DB (talk) 22:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I was also under the impression that WP:LEAD dictated that multiple languages shouldn't be listed. I challenge you to quote the specific guideline which specifically rules against the inclusion of multiple languages as alternative names in the lead sentence/paragraphs.--Huaiwei 23:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
"I think that the presence/absence/line drawn should be dictated by a consensus of the people in those wikiprojects tending to the articles."
The only objections here to removing the names, so far as I can tell, are not members of WP:AIRPORTS. Huaiwei has openly and publicly stated that he has no desire to ever join the project, on the project's talk page no less. Have you conceeded mistakenly, or are we finally coming to somewhat of a close? By the way, the proposal was never to rid the article of the alternate names anyway, but simply to have them in the infobox only, at least as far as I see. thadius856talk 22:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Neither. While WP:AIRPORTS tends this page, so does SGpedians, and the Architecture group as well, from the banner. I don't know why the SGpedians haven't placed their banner here, but the presence/absence of a banner is not definitive. What I can note is that looking at the article's revisions, prominent members of SGpedians such as User:Mailer Diablo, User:Sengkang, User:Terence Ong, and User:Vsion have made contributions. Think about it this way. It would be rather upsetting if people belonging to the Singapore group not to have a say in how the article of a Singapore airport works. --Rifleman 82 22:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Apparently we had a misunderstanding on that one. I was trying to communicate how I find it ironic that you say it should be handled by the WikiProject with jurisdiction, yet then move it yourself to SGpedians instead, which is not a WikiProject. I wasn't saying that SGpedians should have no say in this. Are we clear(er) now, Rifleman? thadius856talk 23:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I am clear now, that you find it ironic because SGpedians is not a wikiproject, while Airports is. That's my mistake for not knowing the difference. (I still don't know the difference beyond the semantics.) That said, my whole point was that the inclusion/deletion/modification of the names in other language in the lead paragraph should be synchronized with all the other Singapore articles, hence this is not the right place for discussion. --Rifleman 82 23:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Ideally, it should be at the center of a discussion for a policy on this across all of en.wiki. But since we know that probably won't happen any time soon, I agree that SGpedians is probably the best place for the time being.
I've raised this issue at Wikipedia talk:SGpedians' notice board; if you or any other interested party is interested in a productive discussion, do drop by there. --Rifleman 82 22:39, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
As per my post over in Wikipedia talk:SGpedians' notice board: I find it nonsensical that jurisdiction over articles is now being fought over based on nothing but project banners. I remember there was a time disagreements were so heated over the content of the article that the Singapore Changi page was even removed from the Airport project. Would you like us to go down this path once again? We very well might if this kind of provincial thinking persists. Wikipedia is a SHARED project. Try arguing against that.--Huaiwei 23:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I don't see how a trivial matter has turned into a hairsplitting issue. --210physicq (c) 23:20, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Huaiwei has openly and publicly stated that he has no desire to ever join the project, on the project's talk page no less. Could you find the relevant quotes stating that I wont ever join that project? I hope you arent making such definitive decisions on my behalf, but without my consent.--Huaiwei 23:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
How am I making any "decisions" on your behalf, Huaiwei? You posted it yourself, reading: "On the other hand, I do not feel welcome here, and chose not to be part of this project despite my long extensive study and keen interest in aviation-related topics." in this [3] edit.

This is my take on the issue: WP:AIRPORTS deals only with the structure of airport articles, and hence the article should reflect that. But the language and text of the article, including the inclusion or noninclusion of the multiple names, is the decision of the SGpedians, and the article should reflect that. My real opinion is that there would be middle ground on this issue (I see no American airports running into issues with WP:USA), but if we have to split jurisdiction (and I do NOT want to see this happen), here is my proposal. --210physicq (c) 23:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any arguments that WP:AIRPORTS should have jurisdiction here, so I'm not sure why it keeps coming up. DB (talk) 23:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
The proposal is extremely divisive, I admit that. I don't want to go down that road. It is only a proposal of last resort, when this dispute becomes so heated it becomes an ultimate joke. --210physicq (c) 23:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the word "jurisdiction" has some sort of WikiConnotation I'm unfamiliar with? Let me try to explain what I was intending to mean. For example, William III of England would fall under WP:BIO, WP:UK and WP:MILHIST. Is there something I haven't been told here? :\ thadius856talk 00:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I hope WP:AIRPORTS is not forming the dogma that it can dictate the editorial decision of other contributors. The aim of Wikiproject is to establish guidelines, not rules and regulations. --Vsion 02:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
You're entirely correct, Vsion. However, just because some of us who have chipped into the discussion are participants in the project does not mean that we are speaking in an official capacity or that our opinions reflect concensus on the part of the project. I know I'm not speaking for anybody else. thadius856talk 05:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

A mediation cabal case has been opened, could involved parties please state their stand regarding the dispute, and why you think the names should stay/go? Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-11-18 Singapore Changi Airport#Discussion, please. Thanks. – Chacor 02:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peer Review

I requested a peer review yesterday and was glad to see that an automated bot trolled the article and gave some general comments on the subject. I not only proofread and copyedited the article through the Ground Handling section (too long for one sitting), I also corrected its suggestions throughout the entire article.

Criteria of the automated review I have addressed include:

  • Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:MOSDATE, months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.
  • Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:BTW, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006, but do not link January 2006.
  • Per WP:MOS, avoid using words/phrases that indicate time periods relative to the current day. For example, recently and previous [day/week/month/year] might be terms that should be replaced with specific dates/times.
  • Temporal terms like “over the years”, “currently”, “now”, and “from time to time” often are too vague to be useful, but occasionally may be helpful. “I am now using a semi-bot to generate your peer review.”
  • Per WP:MOSNUM, there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 18mm, use 18 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 18 mm.
  • Per WP:MOSNUM, when doing conversions, please use standard abbreviations: for example, miles -> mi, kilometers squared -> km2, and pounds -> lb.
  • Per WP:MOSNUM, please spell out source units of measurements in text; for example, "the Moon is 380,000 kilometres (240,000 mi) from Earth.
  • Please alphabetize the interlanguage links.
  • Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) may be too long- consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per WP:SS.*As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space inbetween. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2]

If anybody else would like to pitch in, there are more issues to be addressed. Please see Wikipedia peer review or the WikiProject Airports Peer review department for more information. thadius856talk 06:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Air Traffic for 3 runway configuration?

for 2 runway planes for each runway can turn in opposition direction to from a ciruit. how would it work for 3 runway, does the center runway fly straight until it is clear of the traffic on both sides? ;P Akinkhoo 14:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, the center runway (02C/20C in this case) is only for straight-in approaches. You can't run traffic patterns on a center runway unless one of the others is closed. thadius856talk 18:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article Review

Reasons I passed this article:

  • The article contains a lot of high quality information, which is written in a simple enough form.
  • The article covers a large scope of information.
  • The article is well referenced and sources are used throughout.
  • There are numerous images and photographs which compliment the article well.
  • The quality of the article more than justifies its length and size.

The article can be improved further by finishing off the 'To-do' list at the top of this page - it covers several minor things. --Sagaciousuk (talk) 22:06, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Names in multiple languages (Reprise)

OK, as per this mediation cabal (There is no Cabal) case, can someone please leave only the English name of the airport in the lead, moving the other names into the infobox? (I'm assuming that the case is closed as no one has posted there for a while, and several people have agreed to this idea. Of course, if you wish to dispute this, just leave a message below this one saying that you wish to dispute, and then actually dispute it in the Mediation Cabal case page). I'd do it myself but I don't want to start another edit war... Thanks. The Duke of Singapore Changi Airport 22:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

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