User talk:Silverwood

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[edit] Your edits at sadcore

Hi, just about the reverts at sadcore, I'm not sure that perhaps I misunderstand what we are talking about? Do you mean that Cat Power, Shannon Wright and other female singer-songwriters are the lead exponents in terms of quality, prolificness or sales? I don't really know if the latter two qualities are verifiable anyway, but if you mean the first, then this is clearly not in line with Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Would it be okay for me to remove this sentence? -postglock 11:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Sadcore is either a:) a very wide definition and not very useful (i.e. better classified as alt.country etc) or b:) an evolving and very specific new subgenre.

If we take it to be a very specific subgenre then there are actually very few really solid examples of sadcore artists. I take exception with at least half of the "sadcore" artists listed on the page but you can't remove them without them coming back so you have to bow to consensus.

Catpower and, perhaps more justifiably, Shannon Wright, embody all of the elements discussed (dissonance, lyrical traits, tempo, artistic inheritance etc). Sadcore is the best label for both of them (something we cannot say about other examples given). Furthermore, they are both developing the sound and contibuting directly to the potential of the subgenre (for example Wright's work with Albini and the use of samples) without crossing over or diluting the sound.

Quality is obviously subjective. Whether an artist is prolific hardly seems relevant, although I have chosen artists who are at least active and have recent releases. Sales is quantifiable and could be used to describe a leading exponent, however, we would have to be certain of a comparitive analysis of artists who are properly sadcore and not just indie/alternative. I think Catpower (popular artist) and Wright (less well known) are a good example because there is a a balance between sales and critical opinion.

So I dispute the NPOV charge and would rather someone came up with a good justification for a replacement of artists than just deleting the line as I think the article needs to be specific rather than just ending with a vaugely catch-all list of downbeat alternative artists.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Silverwood (talk • contribs) .

Hi! I suppose the thing is that I agree with the article in considering Sadcore as a pretty loose definition. I am not familiar at all with Shannon Wright, but to tell you the truth, I had never ever considered Cat Power a sadcore artist. I have always considered her roots to be more folky. IMO, the definitive sadcore band has always been the Red House Painters (obviously now defunct), but if slowcore and sadcore are considered synonyms, then I would have said Low. If you mean that "leading exponents" refers to bands that are "developing the sound and contibuting directly to the potential of the subgenre," then I still find the reference a little POV. Even if Shannon Wright is doing this, then I can think of many other artists, mostly not female singer-songwriter, that also deserve to be here. Ultimately, if artists in general were not considered to be "developing the sound" of the genre to some degree, then we would not consider them a quality; that is kind of inter-related. I could come up with a list of reasons that I think a band like Low should merit inclusion here, but I am not sure that this is the point. I just think that this statement is inherently POV, as it makes a quality judgement of the artistic integrity of the artists. (BTW, if you type -~~~~ after your name, it will automatically sign as right. Thanks!) -postglock 01:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Postglock,

It would be useful to get some other input on this point so it's not just the two of us but anyway I think a key point here is whether sadcore and slowcore are synonymous. Although very similar labels, I always thought they had developed the capacity to describe distinct styles. If it was up to me I would separate the two so we could talk about Low as slowcore and other artists as sadcore. I don't think either of these labels describes the totality of any of the artists considered but they are terms with currency and I thought we should get the best definition possible.

I agree with your point about female singer-songwriters: this is not what I meant but I can see how you would take that from the way I worded it.

I still don't know about the possible POV charge though. When I wrote "leading exponents" I think I wanted to talk about bands who were actually leading the field and "developing the sound" -I know what I mean by this phrase but I can explain it in more detail if you think it is too vague. It's not really a value judgement as the demonstrable use of new technology (samples, loops etc), stylistic influences (world, postrock) and experimentation whilst still remaining within the generic limits is a bit more objective and verifiable than that. I really don't see how this is making a judgement about "artistic integrity" as such either, although yes it could imply something by default about bands who are more slavishly confined to the pre-existing sound.

Do you think we could restore balance by removing reference to "female singer-songwriters", perhaps finding a better term than "leading exponents" and then including a line following this about a band such as Low who are a better known (if not necessarily generically progressive) example?

Thanks for the tip about signing BTW, I'll try it out now!

Silverwood-Silverwood 12:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Hehe, sorry, I gave you wrong information about signing your name; you just need to type -~~~~ by itself. Getting more input from other editors is always great, but I have had problems in the past getting people to motivate about specific articles, and ... well ... slowcore/sadcore is pretty niche anyway I think. :)

My personal view has always been the (rather simplistic) one that sadcore is the sad version of slowcore. I've always thought Low (for example) were more euphoric rather than depressing/nihilist, and hence never fit into the sadcore bucket. I suppose I've always thought that sadcore was a subgroup of slowcore. But I don't really know. I know what you mean by currency, no band likes to be pigeon-holed (and rightly so), but terms exist for convenience.

I am in total agreement for the proposed changes. I see how i mis-interpreted the female singer-songwriter bit now. I do like the idea of mentioning a few bands, just to present broader examples. Perhaps we could phrase it in the form of a summary, i.e. Cat Power does this, Shannon Wright likes to include these elements, Low do that, etc.

-postglock 15:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)