Talk:Silphium
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[edit] The spelling of lasarpicium or laserpicium
The change of lasarpicium to laserpicium doesn't match the spelling of the word in the translation Catullus 7, also the search word/link? was not changed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=lasarpicium&fulltext=Search
If you are going to fix the spelling fix it everwhere. Kurt Baty 23:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- In fact it is spelled both ways in Latin, so honestly I don't think it needed to be "fixed" at all. --Iustinus 01:01, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] A statement about Jews
This page says that "Another possibility is that marauding Jews who disapproved of the Cyrenaic philosophical school of hedonism came through and massacred everyone who knew how to make the silphium resin, and possibly destroyed all the crops as well, throughout the region. There are records of Jews killing large numbers of people in this area, but it is not known to be related to silphium.". Is this verifiable, or is this merely anti-Semitic propaganda? Anthony Appleyard
- Sounds suspect. Unless there's a citation of a repudable source stating this, I'd remove it. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 12:53, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
- I wondered about that too. It was added by the same person who added a number of other theories of Silphium's extinction. That ip-numbered user hasn't made any other contributions. I left it in because the contribution as a whole looked 'serious'.--Srleffler 03:50, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
- If it was sourced and made some kind of sense I wouldn't have a problem with it, but there is no source listed, and I'm not aware of one. It also doesn't seem to make any sense to me, I'm generally pretty well versed on ancient history, and I've not only never heard this theory, I'm not aware of any instances of 'marauding jews' around that time and place. I'd have to say, unless someone can source it, it should go. Arker 04:02, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
- There was a big Jewish revolt in Judea in 66, and there seem to have been Jewish revolts in Cyrene in 73 and 117 (see Cyrene, Libya and livius.org). The Cyrene page says that 200,000 Romans and Greeks were killed in the latter revolt, and that "Libya was depopulated to such an extent that a few years later new colonies had to be established there, according to Eusebius". Perhaps one of these incidents was intended, but was poorly described.--Srleffler 07:06, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
- I thought it was still be produced quite a bit later than that though. Can't seem to find a date on when it was last known to be produced now that I look, so I might be wrong on that. Arker 03:05, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
- After further research it seems that the stuff was already endangered in the first century BC, and the last root was supposed to have been presented to Emperor Nero. This would put it before either of the Jewish Cyrenaican revolts. Still haven't found any source to link them, so it seems this was just nonsense. Arker 03:36, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
- The page states that "[t]here are records of Jews killing large numbers of people in this area..." but does not reference the records in any way. Unless that reference can be provided, along with some details about who these 'Jews' were, I would like to see this entry removed. Lee Goddard, 13:39, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
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- Preposterous. Deleted.--Wetman 23:26, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Libya
"Cyrene is in modern-day Libya, which makes doing archaeological research there difficult." - And just why do you say this? - 28 december 2005
[edit] Heart-shape
"the fact that the seeds of silphium are shaped like a heart, leads to speculation that the character for ab may have been derived from the shape of the silphium seed." If Silphium is extinct, how is this "fact" determined? --Wetman 23:26, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
- Well, from representations in art, presumably. But all the representations I've seen have shown the entire plant, and it's a pretty silly theory in any case:
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| Silphium | ỉb |
- Yes, from the coins of Kyrenaica:
- Kurt Baty 00:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
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- Well done, that does indeed look like the modern "heart symbol." It doesn't strike me as very similar the the Egyptian ib sign though. --Iustinus 00:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
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- Bravo, Kurt! The photo you have added is great, but we need to figure out the copyright status. I'm sure the copyright on the coins themselves is long expired, but the photographer probably still holds copyright in the photo unless he/she has sold it. (Wikipedia is fussy about proper copyrights for all photos used.) About ỉb: I don't know anything about hieroglyphics, but often the way a symbol is written evolves over time. Perhaps earlier versions of ỉb were more heart-like. --Srleffler 02:07, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
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- About the ỉb I can't say, but the discussion about it should be on the Heart (symbol) page/entry. To my knowledge, other than it's shape, there is no direct connection to the silphium plant. However the Human heart organ is part of a different hieroglyph "nefer". Kurt Baty 03:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
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- The ỉb sign is usually considered a stylized representation of an actual heart (even though to modern eyes it looks like some sort of pot). If you look carefully at the nfr sign, you will see a similarity to the ỉb sign. --Iustinus 18:07, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Gilbert's theory
The theory by J.S. Gilbert, mentioned in the article, needs a citation. This was added by the same anonymous user who made the comments about Jews and Libya, which have been deleted. This doesn't automatically make the information suspect—it's a reasonable enough hypothesis, and the description is fairly detailed. My main concern is that this might be "Original Research" (WP:NOR). If this has been published somewhere, we need a reference citation to that.--Srleffler 00:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Since this paragraph has remained uncited (and unverified) for some time, I have removed it from the article pending verification. If someone can find a source for this material, please provide a reference.--Srleffler 01:41, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Material removed from article
Another theory, by J. S. Gilbert[citation needed] , is that the silphium resin the Cyreneans exported was not derived solely from the plant itself but also incorporated insect parts containing the chemical cantharidin. In order to make the exported product palatable to Greek tastes, the insect component was not advertised. When Roman governors took over they brought in slave labor to handle the production of silphium, but the slaves did not know how to make the proper gum, and so the medicinally effective silphium "went extinct". Cantharidin is toxic to humans and, much like pennyroyal tea, the ingestion of a small amount of it would not necessarily kill a grown human, but it would certainly kill a developing embryo.
