Talk:Sign of the cross
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[edit] Two fingers
Which two fingers were used in Russia? Index and thumb? Or index and middle while thumb is folded over the palm?
Index and middle - look at Old Believers' ways today. Rdmauriello 02:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Bosnian war
This:
- During the Bosnian war, Serbo-Bosnian troops raised two fingers in a sign of victory, Bosnian Croats raised three fingers and Muslims raised one (after the strict monotheism of Islam).
...is wrong. It was Serbs who raised three fingers, while Croats raised two. Raising three fingers is almost certainly related to the Sign of the cross. Still, I'm unfamiliar with the Bosniak gesture of raising one finger - can somebody check it up? GregorB 21:44, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Double-cross
"The actual origin of the expression "double-cross" which dates in English from only 1834, has to do with "fixing" a horse-race in a pre-arranged swindle that is only very loosely connected with the sign of the cross."
Besides only being tangentially related to the article, this contradicts the Double cross page (which, according to the Jonathan Wild article, is wrong as well). Can we just remove this sentence entirely? 12.217.177.151 03:00, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] right to left
I can not find why the Orthodox go right to left. What is the true reason?
The reason is that the Son sits to right side of the Father. The Son died, rose and sits to the right of the Father, hence the hand goes from the head to the stomach (or chest) which represents the Hades, and then to the right of the head, or right of the Father.
I grew up (Melkite Greek Catholic) learning that it also mirrors the "Be on my mind, in my heart, bless my good works, and forgive me my sins" ditty that you teach kids. Personally, I'd think it has to do with aversions to things of the left. Thus, one goes to the right shoulder and then the heart, not the left shoulder. Rdmauriello 02:16, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Disputed
I can't find anywhere online (granted, it's at a late hour and I'm not looking quite as hard as I might at an earlier time) that substantiates the article's claim as to why Western and Eastern Christians make the Sign in different directions (left-right vs right-left). So I decided to be cautious and put up a dubious tag. -Penta 07:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
It isn't correct at all. The difference is a mix-up that comes from mirroring the bishop or priest when he blesses the congregation. It became western practice over time, but as I was taught in seminary, right-to-left was still common up until about 200-years ago.
-User:rdmauriello 17:29, 22 May 2006 (EDT)
If you look at the online Catholic Encyclopedia (the link is already attached to this item), it says the following:
At this period the manner of making it in the West seems to have been identical with that followed at present in the East, i.e. only three fingers were used, and the hand traveled from the right shoulder to the left. The point, it must be confessed, is not entirely clear and Thalhofer (Liturgik, I, 633) inclines to the opinion that in the passages of Belethus (xxxix), Sicardus (III, iv), Innocent III (De myst. Alt., II, xlvi), and Durandus (V, ii, 13), which are usually appealed to in proof of this, these authors have in mind the small cross made upon the forehead or external objects, in which the hand moves naturally from right to left, and not the big cross made from shoulder to shoulder. Still, a rubric in a manuscript copy of the York Missal clearly requires the priest when signing himself with the paten to touch the left shoulder after the right. Moreover it is at least clear from many pictures and sculptures that in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries the Greek practice of extending only three fingers was adhered to by many Latin Christians. Thus the compiler of the Ancren Riwle (about 1200) directs his nuns at "Deus in adjutorium" to make a little cross from above the forehead down to the breast with three fingers". However there can be little doubt that long before the close of the Middle Ages the large sign of the cross was more commonly made in the West with the open hand and that the bar of the cross was traced from left to right. In the "Myroure of our Ladye" (p. 80) the Bridgettine Nuns of Sion have a mystical reason given to them for the practice: "And then ye bless you with the sygne of the holy crosse, to chase away the fiend with all his deceytes. For, as Chrysostome sayth, wherever the fiends see the signe of the crosse, they flye away, dreading it as a staffe that they are beaten withall. And in thys blessinge ye beginne with youre hande at the hedde downwarde, and then to the lefte side and byleve that our Lord Jesu Christe came down from the head, that is from the Father into erthe by his holy Incarnation, and from the erthe into the left syde, that is hell, by his bitter Passion, and from thence into his Father's righte syde by his glorious Ascension".
TJHudson 17:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This doesn't really say anything. My understanding is that it the Greek way is the original way, and that the differences come in the way that the actions of the priest were mirrored by the congregation -- in the West, the tradition arose to simply mirror the hand of the priest when he made the benediction, in the East, the tradition arose to make the same gesture that the priest was making. Eventually, in the West, the priests started doing what the congregation was doing. At any rate, it is certain that the reason for the difference is not a papal decree, but a gradual process. Therefore, I am going to note this.
[edit] Lutherans and the sign of the cross
Lutherans do this? Really? I'm Lutheran (ELCA) and I've never once seen it done in church. PeteJayhawk 20:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- It's probably on analogy with the Anglican church which does it. Or maybe there are Lutherans who do it? -- the GREAT Gavini 06:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Catchphrase
I have never heard this used outside the middle school playground, and it's not particularly relevant or noteworthy, thus, erasure. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.150.192.197 (talk • contribs) 05:11, 2 August 2006.
- You state that this catchphrase is acceptable practice for Roman Catholics. I would ask you to show the source for:
- 1) The Catchphrase itself
- 2) The fact that this 'catchphrase' is acceptable for Roman Catholics.
- In fact, there is no official catchphrase and the section should be deleted. --Ologgio 18:54, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
- Come off it, that's not hard. You will find the phrase used in the film Austin Powers The Spy Who Shagged Me and here is a citation of that mentions it.
- The phrase also features in a scene in Nuns on the Run in which Robbie Coltrane's character teaches the sign of the cross to Eric Idle using the mnemonic (and a citation). You should also note that Coltrane is a lapsed Catholic.
- It really isn't that uncommon, and I'm rather surprised to find so many editors hiding behind anonymous accounts and trying to supress it. Here is another citation that suggests it originated in 1965, but I suspect its older. Here is another example of someone using the phrase informally to educate a Jewish friend.
- You could of course go down to you local Catholic church and try asking the choristers after the service to see whether they know what the phrase means - let me know if they are all bemused. -- Solipsist 08:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Difference on difference
The article says:
"the most accepted is that in the West, when the priest made the Sign over the people to bless them, the people mirrored the direction of his hand, rather than copying the motions, thus, they moved their hand left to right, the direction that the priest's hand moved from the point of view of the congregation. In the East, the people simply continued to make the same sign."
I have heard the complete opposite explanation, according to which Eastern Faithful mirror the motions of the priest, while Western Faithful copy the priest's motions. This also makes sense, as the above version is contradicted by actual practice in the Western rite (with which I am familiar): the sign of the cross is not mirrored, rather both priest and faithful move from the left to the right.
Are there any objections to changing this?
Str1977 (smile back) 19:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
