Talk:Shrine of the Three Kings at Cologne Cathedral

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What are "unknown facts"? Are they anything like "known unknowns"? Hotlorp

For my part, I'm just mystified by this article. The first sentence should declare what the article is about (I had to use "what links here" to get a clue - it's a reliquary, right?), and some explanation of the English-only reader needs to see the long quotes in foreign languages that he/she won't understand anyway... Stan 03:41 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)

Visiting Cologne and trying to find out some info on the shrine of the magi... could someone please translate this? Maria Hale. 21.11.04

See also: in other languages, Deutsch, and see also: www.google.com, Language Tools ... could someone please translate this unknown facts?

Dietmar Scherm 23:24, 24.11.2004

I'm adding a cleanup notice to this article, it currently needs quite a bit of work. I don't know enough on the topic to do it justice, all I know is that the remains were first discovered by Helena of Constantinople. Rje 01:56, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've translated the german quote of 1864 - trying to stick closely to both words and ductus of the original, but I'm not educated in 19th century english, so might not have made a match of contemporary english at all. Unclarities in the original are mentioned expressis verbis: "rotten or moulded" could be either or both; a generic term was used for "the crosier (bishop's crook)", so I assume the coin does not allow distinction --Purodha Blissenbach 2005 July 6 11:23 (UTC)

Provable facts about the clothing in the Cologne cathedral treasure room, taken out of the shrine of the Three Kings: Dr. Walter Schulten is writing: Eyewitness bishop Baudri had seen and is writing in 1881, a piece of material for the treasure-vault was taken out of the shrine of the Three Kings.
"1881 schrieb der Kölner Weihbischof Baudri, der 1864 ebenfalls bei der Umbettung der Gebeine zugegegen war (Anmerkung von Dietmar: Sein Name steht unter dutzend anderen auch im Eröffnungsprotokoll des Schreines von 1864), daß man ein Stück eines alten byzantinischen Gewebes von Byssus (Bezeichnung für feines Leinen- oder Seidengewebe der Antike) für die Schatzkammer des Domes entnommen habe. Und: Kenner führen die Zeit dieser byzantinischen Textur in die früheste Periode der byzantinischen Herrschaft zurück. (Anmerkung von Dietmar: Insbesondere durch Franz Bock, sein Name steht auch im Protokoll.) Tatsächlich ist inzwischen der Nachweis gelungen, daß die Stoffe, in die die Gebeine gewickelt wurden, mit Sicherheit im 2. Jahrhundert, möglicherweise sogar noch früher, in Syrien gewebt worden sind.", in: Bayer-Berichte Heft 47, Leverkusen 1982, Seite 17, Autor: Schulten, Pater Dr. Walter, Der Kölner Dreikönigenstoff, Aus Seide im 2. Jahrhundert gewebt, Seiten 14-19. Pater Dr. Walter Schulten hatte ich 1992 noch persönlich im Kloster Knechtsteden gesprochen, und er sagte mir, die Stelle findet sich in der Bibliographie des Baudri über den Kölner Erzbischof und Kardinal Johannes von Geissel. 1881 hatte er nur folgendes Buch geschrieben: Baudri, Johann Anton Friedrich, Der Erzbischof von Köln Johannes Cardinal von Geissel und seine Zeit, 1881.
Other very important documents about the little pieces of clothes:
2. Bayer-Berichte Heft 47, Leverkusen 1982, pages 20 - 23, Zieleskiewicz, Paula Maria: Der Kölner Dreikönigenstoff, Fadenzählen für die Forschung
3. Bayer-Berichte Heft 47, Leverkusen 1982, pages 24 -29, Wagner, Dr. Hans, Der Kölner Dreikönigenstoff: Bayer - Labor wies antiken Purpur nach
4. Organ für christliche Kunst 14, Köln 1864, pages 235 - 237, Bock, Dr. Franz, Die Eröffnung des Schreines der heiligen Dreikönige am 20. Juli 1864
5. Bock, Dr. Franz, Die textilen Byssus Reliquien, Aachen 1895, pages 5 -7
Eyewitness-report of Dr. Franz Bock: "It was found many pieces of white-yellow clothing ...with small square sample (sign), firmly connected with the bones. " You can see three different parts of this clothing in: Photo No. 169 in: http://www.deca-forum.net/e_index.htm ,image database, simple search, write above in text: dreikoenigenschrein, search, next page No. 9. For investigations, little antiquity purple was taken from the visible threads by the material piece on the top right.

Dietmar 15:54 August 27, 2005 ---Translation is permitted

[edit] More history?

I am a little surprised that this article begins with events in the 1100s without explaining where these relics came from, why they are presumed to be the bones of the magi, etc. Perhaps there is enough material somewhere to create an article on "Relics of the three wise men," but I doubt it, so this seems like a good place to put at least a little more historical context. --Dmz5 22:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)