Talk:Shipping in the Harry Potter fandom

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This article was nominated for deletion on 2 Apr 2005. The result of the discussion was redirect (lack of consensus to delete but many calls to merge).

This page was extracted from the main Harry Potter fandom article and the following was copied from the Talk:Harry Potter fandom page. The reason for this is that this section was taking up too much space. If you disagree with this move feel free to debate it here. Do not move the page back before an agreement is reached. (see new instructions below)

See: Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Shipping in the Harry Potter fandom

Contents 1 Guidelines now Void 2 Suggestion 3 "Shipping" sections 4 "Remus/Sirius" sections 5 Rename 6 Section names

[edit] Guidelines now Void

Since this article seems to be safely on its way to destruction over at VfD, the previous guidelines- or any guidelines regarding this article, for that matter- are now null and void. As this page is currently on VfD, the previous guidelines are currently suspended. Once the discussion is concluded, new guidelines for a less bloated article will be instated in the respective talk page. --AceMyth 12:09, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

• Not necessarily. VfD consensus seems to lean mildly towards keeping the article. Radiant_* 12:39, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

• • Hmm... I guess you're right, but if I'm not mistaken deletion policy requires a 2/3 majority to count as a "consensus", so currently there's no consensus at all. I've edited the announcement to reflect the uncertainty, at any rate.

I just hope this gets merged back to Harry Potter fandom, where it belongs. Being a member of AMW, I'm sure you can identify. (I'm very inclusionist as far as information goes but not really on articles, which... I guess... sort of makes me a Mergist too?) --AceMyth 17:02, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion

Now, this is just an idea, but I thought that maybe, since the "shipping" section is taking up so much of the page, it should be given its own article.

I wish somebody with some solid knowledge as to the rest of the Harry Potter fandom would step up and add some information about it, instead. But a part of me already fears that there is no "rest of the fandom" to speak of. --AceMyth 02:26, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Shipping" sections

Is all of this really a-NPOV and b-representative of the fan community in general? I'm especially referring to the cutesy titles being given to the various pairings - are these really standard? --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 02:06, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Speaking as a fandomer, the answer to that question is actually yes. Granted, some sub-communities within ships will adopt other names for themselves, but the cutesy titles are indeed used quite commonly. Thephotoman 02:54, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The "Cutesy titles" are so worn, overused and standard in the circles of the fandom I know of by now that the relation between them and their respective ships is much like the relation between the words "watch" and "observe". AceMyth 07:06, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

All right, I'll take your world for it—perhaps you would be interested in adding an enlightening explanation for the uninitiated? (It's just that I've seen more Harry Potter message boards that you could shake a stick at, and I've never encountered these particular terms. Most likely I just let me eyes slide ride over them without letting it sink it.) I hope I didn't offend you with the term "cutesy"—it was meant with affection. ;) A separate article on the "shipping/shipper" phenomenon might be called for, since a lot of the information here is a general explanation of the concept rather than specific to Harry Potter fandom. Also that's exactly the sort of sub-cultural information that Wikipedia generally does best. --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 14:56, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The idea of somebody being offended by ridiculing anything about the ship phenomenon- the ludicrousity of which is obvious- amuses me to no end. Also, a separate shipping article would definitely be welcome, but I afraid my scope of knoweldge on shipping as a general covers little more than what is written in this article (and some psychological analysis of why people ship and what odd things it does to their view of the relevant canon if reality, but I am not sure of where that would fit in, if at all). AceMyth 17:07, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

I can tell you this: the notion stated as fact in the article that the term "shipping" started with Pokemon is baloney, sheer and utter baloney. "Shipping" may not have started with X-Files fandom, although that was what I heard it first in reference to, but the idea that the term originated with Pokemon is false. I encountered the term in the early 90's before Pokemon had even been released in Japan. (I believe that it was in TV Guide in the early 90's, specifically, that I read of the use of "shipping" to describe belief in a relationship between Mulder and Scully; if someone can find this reference, it doesn't prove that the term originated in X-Files fandom but it should put to rest this silly myth that "Rocketshipping" is the actual source of the "shipping" term.)

In fact, checking the shipper article, and seeing that the same claim is made there by someone who states as fact that "Diamondshipping" is the ship name for Giovanni/Ash's mother, I believe I could guess exactly who this unreliable source is. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:55, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The shipper article could use a rewrite from a less Pokémon-centric point of view. I know as a fact that the phenomenon also applies to to soap operas, bands (!), and live action television shows, not to mention books, comics, basically anything with a storyline and characters. (Except the thing with bands. I swear I've seen it but I don't understand it.) Actually, it probably should be at Shipping, since it seems to be more about shipping that it is about shippers. (I just realized how silly that sounds when you string several of them together.)

I agree that it probably didn't start with Pokémon. Now that you mention it, I think I recall that TV Guide article referring to X-Files shippers. (It's short for "relationship" there, I think.) It's possible (perhaps even probable) that the young Pokémon fans who have been spreading this information were not old enough to be watching the X-Files that early in the proceedings and that this is honestly the first place they encountered it. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 23:54, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have been searching on Google groups and so far have found several 1996 references. I can't find any references prior to 1996. (It's difficult, though, because a search for "shipper" prior to 1996 will turn up pages of shipping companies.) The earliest I could find was dated June 10, 1996: [1]. This seems to imply that the term existed at least by June 1996 and that by that time, there were substantial numbers of fans who identified themselves as "shippers" and "non shippers". Here is a September response to a question regarding the meaning of the terms, which must have been well-established by that time: [2]. These are all X-Files fans, and there is no indication whatsoever that the term extends to any other groups.

According to the Pokémon article, the first game was actually released in 1996 in Japan. Dates for the show are not given (???), but the English version of the games were not released until late 1998, so even Pokémon shipping began immediately among English-speaking fans, the term had existed in X-Files communities at least two years prior to that. I think it's safe to say that nobody was a Pokémon shipper prior to the release of the English version. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 00:13, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I would welcome anyone who would like to help me in re-writing the Shipper article, who can provide viewpoints outside of those I can provide as a longtime member of the Pokémon Shipping community. Speaking of which, Antaeus Feldspar, who were you accusing of being an unreliable source, myself (a.k.a. Archaic), or ChaosRocket, who I am led to understand has been rather involved in Harry Potter Shipping in addition to her exploits as a PalletShipper in the Pokémon fandom going back to at least 1999? It's obviously got to be one of us. As for the use of DiamondShipper, it's valid going by the (In)Complete list, and far more common than DaggerShipper in usage from my experience. If any others were in popular usage amongst the Shipper communities on the main Pokémon forums of the day (TRHQ, UPN, Abode, BMGf, TPM, Pojo, and later Serebii), or on fanfictin.net, they would have found their way to this list through some means. Did you have some other name you wanted to suggest?

In any case, as ChaosRocket was there at TRHQ I believe when Pokémon Shippers believe the term to have been coined, I'll see if I can get in contact with her to get some more information for our side of the discussion, though given that she's apparently more active in the Harry Potter fandom thesedays, you might have more luck with that. I'll grant you that you seem to be using the terms in 1996 here, though I don't know how common the term was amongst your fandom for certain. I can confirm however that Pokémon Shipping started well before the english release of the anime or show (Several of us more mature fans [yes, we exist], including myself had, through various means, access to the Japanese games or anime), though without ChaosRocket or another from the old days at TRHQ, I can't confirm the exact date we started calling it Shipping. It may very well be that the X-Files fandom invented the term, but I believe it can be argued that the mature fans of the Pokémon fandom, starting with Rocket Jesse on TRHQ, were the ones who truly established the term in its current meaning, and paved the way for it to spread into other anime and related fandoms as the less mature fans grew up and moved into other fandom communities. --Mukashi 13:21, 2004 Nov 22 (UTC)

I see nothing in my reading of early X-Files postings to indicate that any of them were even aware of Pokémon, and I find it hard to believe that folks who were never remotely interested in Pokémon fandom would have had enough exposure to have taken the term from it (her I refer to other, later communities). I am willing to entertain the notion that the two usages of the word were coined independently, since I imagine most Pokémon fans in 1998 were not old enough to have been X-Files fans in 1996, but it does seem rather unlikely that the same word with identical meaning would have sprung up completely separately.

We should be clear that we are not in any case referring to my fandom. I don't belong to any "fandom", certainly not one connected with X-Files. (I'm a Tolkien fan, first and foremost.) I am certainly not any sort of "shipper". I have no personal interest in any of these communities getting the credit.

I would be wary of claiming that Pokémon popularized the term. I really think it did appear in TV Guide in reference to the X-Files fans (hey, two of us remember that article, maybe eventually one of us will find it), and if that is the case, then a much wider audience than "folks who were on the Internet and looking at Pokémon communities in 1998" would have been exposed to it. To me this seems a more plausible source of the term's spread to souch communities as soap opera fans, although I will admit that the Pokémon fandom was probably responsible for introducing the term to anime communities, where it does seem to be running especially rampant these days.

Tracking Internet culture is hard work. -[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 16:36, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Understatement of the year. --Mukashi 17:27, 2004 Nov 22 (UTC)

Why isn't there a Hermione/Ginny section? — JIP | Talk 09:16, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Because, apparently, no obsessed Hermione/Ginny fan has stumbled across this web site.

That's true. Although, following the external links in the femmeslash article, I found that girl/girl Harry Potter fanfic does exist, although it's not as popular as boy/boy fanfic. — JIP | Talk 06:47, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In the listings, also consider http://www.GinnyPotter.com for a listing as a major Harry/Ginny shipper site and fanfiction archive.

[edit] "Remus/Sirius" sections

Is this ship section necessary? It's not particularily large and doesn't strike up as much debate by far as H/Hr or R/Hr which are the major ships. R/S is just a secondary ship - one with a very devoted following, but not particularily important to the plot of HP or Harry. It is liked by many in the fandom, but so are many ships - Harry/Draco and Harry/Snape among them.

[edit] Rename

Could this article please be renamed? The reason I'm asking is that the word "shipping" means "naval transport" to most people unfamiliar with fanfic. I originally thought it was about shipping merchandise :). Anyway the article would appeal to a wider audience if its title was more clear. Radiant_* 12:39, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

"Appeal to a wider audience?" Are we a marketing agency?

Hmm, if it must be renamed, I'll suggest "Romantic pairings."

[edit] Section names

I've noticed some of the ships are labelled "HMS", while others are labelled as "SS". Is there a reason for this? And also, neither designation is used on the name for the Draco/Hermione ship. I don't know which should be used, or I'd add it in myself. Hermione1980 00:03, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't think there's a reason. The people who had the benefit of being influential back when the whole "naming ships as marine vessels" thing started up chose what they liked best and it stuck, I guess. As for D/Hr, you could just visit their thread on Fictionalley Park to see what they use most commonly... though I doubt it'd be particularly vivid, seeing as JKR has brutally sunk it. --AceMyth 04:54, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)