Talk:Shill
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Final sentence: "This practice is illegal in most, if not all, states" is very US-centric. Can anyone add info on the laws of other countries? NathanV 10:53, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Would appreciate that too.
- --213.89.140.71
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[edit] Message board shills
I've rewritten this section, because the previous version didn't describe shills (instead, it described people who pretend to be something they are not, but such people are not shills unless they conform to the definitions given elsewhere in the article). The new version does indeed describe true shills on message boards, i.e., people who promote products, services, opinions, etc., without revealing their own conflict of interest in doing so (such as the fact that they work for a company that products a product they are endorsing). — Agateller 11:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to remove a whole section, but the new one "Shills on message boards" doesn't conform to what I understand by "shill". If someone makes up a bunch of BS about their qualifications and pretends to an erudition they don't have, heshe is just a liar. A shill is someon who *seems *neutral, but is actually not. But I could be wrong, so I'm just leaving a comment and someone else can yank the section if this makes sense. Mateo_LeFou
The section that talks about the message board shills needs to stay. Yes, shills try to appear neutral even though they are not. Shills belong to a class of liars who are either hired or motivated for business, political, scientific, social, or religious purposes and propaganda. Hence, the shill mentality is perfectly applicable to message boards as well, and is commonly hypothesized by the internet community to be rampant in many public forums, especially those types of forums that advertise certain products or forums that offer a wide variety of topics which concern government, religious, scientific, social and political issues. Justin Alvarez Jr. 08:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I understand your point. What I think is missing from the concept of a message board shill is the existence of preliminary trust in the speaker, based on the fact that some *third *party vouches for himher. Some scenarios: Let's Suppose I think that global warming is bunk... 1) I go somewhere public and deliver a completely made-up lecture based on phony evidence and fake credentials and try to convince people that it's bunk. all I am is a liar. If I'm paid for this, I'm just a liar-for-hire. 2) If the same lecture is underwritten, promoted, and staged by, e.g. the Republican Party, or an automobile manufacturer, all I am is a partisan, or mouthpiece. 3) If it is underwritten by "The Committee for the Advancement of Geological Inquiry" it *sounds like an objective, scientific discussion. People infer that it (generally) conforms to scientific methods, peer review, etc. And they place a certain amount of trust in the event because of that. If it turns out that the CAGI is wholly owned and funded my an automobile manufacturer, and the methods of inquiry were not scientific, we have a genuine shill.
The message-board "shill" is more like case 1. Nobody thinks that posting a message -- in itself -- establishes any credibility. Trust is created as a writer says things that other people confirm. Even if I go to the extensive trouble of building a website for a phony organization, or journal, and transcripts for a non-existent college, there is no third-party joining in. Shilling must always have a touch of consipracy to it, an abuse of trust. People might think "well, if it's at CNN.com, it must be true" but nobody thinks, "well, if it's on a message board, it must be true." Mateo_LeFou
Good point. Perhaps message boards aren't the prime venues in which genuine trust can be effectively abused. What do you think about renaming the section to "Shills in the internet"? I'm sure there are a handful of high profiled websites on the internet that may be vulnerable to an abuse of trust. Although there is already a section called "Shills in auctions" which mentions online auctions, I think the prospect of renaming "Shills on message boards" to "Shills on the internet" would allow for a more in depth section which would include online auctions. Thoughts? Also, here are 2 source I found about internet shilling:
- Justin Alvarez Jr. 12:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I have renamed the section "Shills on the Internet" as suggested above. My experience has been that many shill who appear on message boards, blog comments etc. also have their own web site. I don't think these various activities can be clearly separated.
As for how trust is established, if we take the example of the (live) auction shill, trust is established based on the shill's own claim rather than by a third party. The same applies on message boards etc. A shill will often establish his/her bona fides by saying things that are demonstrably true and/or insightful so that the lies that follow stand a chance of being taken for truth. At least that has been my experience of them.
I added two paragraphs about shills working for governments. Both my examples are related to 9/11. I know that this makes the section look a bit too focused on one issue. However I can't think of another case where both of the opposing claims of shill activity have been made so clearly or where each case has been argued at such length.
I named Steve Milloy as a corporate shill because the case for saying he is is remarkably clear cut and well documented. There can be few other examples as clear or incontestible as this. Ireneshusband 03:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Employees Are Marketing Shills?
I removed the following from the Marketing section...
Sometimes, shills also assume the air of hapless overworked employees, whining in their blogs that they are working their asses off to get the long promised vaporware out of the door, and that we should please, please, please stop bugging them about it.
...besides seeming non-NPOV, this looks like some fallout from the recent controversy regarding Electronic Arts' employment practices. Des Courtney --12.107.104.2 19:22, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Infomercial
Did I miss the section that talks about infomercials?
[edit] Wikipedia self-reference
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- Given the growing importance of Wikipedia as a source of information it is no surprise that it too is targeted by shills. Naturally this creates a great deal of work for administrators and other contributors repairing the damage these people do.
Should this go, according to Avoid_self-references?
It seems that if the article got forked to a different site, the reference to Wikipedia would be out of context and without reason. If the article was being read elsewhere, nobody would be interested in how Wikipedia is targeted by shills. --- Arancaytar - avá artanhé (reply) 01:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
