Talk:Shenyang

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Contents 1 Simplified Chinese to Pinyin? 2 Map 3 Jingshen Expressway 4 Mukden 5 Historical names 6 九•一八事变

[edit] Simplified Chinese to Pinyin?

A native speaker is pronouncing the name of "Dudong" district (the northeast district of Shenyang city) quite differently than I have it spelled here, so I believe the Pinyin translation may be incorrect.

By the way, I have a map of Shenyang with Simplified Chinese labels on it, so if someone wants to help out with translating the labels, please let me know and I will be happy to e-mail you a copy of a scan I made of it.

Also, if anyone can refer me to a good source (either a web page, a book, an electronic translator, or some software I could buy?) that makes it possible to type in Simplified Chinese characters from a Chinese text (or a map in this case) and have them translated into Pinyin, please let me know, as I am having limited success with this, even working with a native speaker, as she can pronounce what she reads, but doesn't know Pinyin.

Thanks. --DV 09:20, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Fixed the spelling of "Dadong" district, and also started adding Simplified Chinese and Pinyin spellings for each district. --DV 13:05, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The name sentence with different versions (Pinyin etc) etc should really include "Mukden" as a traditional name (for user reference). My edit to this effect has been deleted - this does not reflect a neutral POV.

[edit] Map

Is the map correct? Korean and Japanese map locate other region. Cheol 11:22, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jingshen Expressway

Does the Jingshen Expressway have 8 or 6 lanes? The wikipedia article says 6, but this text says 8.

[edit] Mukden

OK. I am not having an edit war again. Can someone tell me why we cannot list the Manchu name of Shenyang in the heading.--Niohe 21:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

While I'm not adamant that the rarely used Manchu name Simiyan hoton be included in the heading of this article, I do think we should include the name Mukden, the name under which this important city was known for generations. Unless I hear any convincing arguments why Mukden should not be added within the next 24 hours, I will change it and I hope it will stay in the article.--Niohe 00:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Shenyang as a city name is well established in English language and Mukden is already indicated enough in the history section of this article. Zhang Qiang 15:17, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Let me ask you why we should be so exclusive? What does the article loose if we add Mukden in the heading?--Niohe 15:40, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Shenyang is also known as "Shengjing", "Fengtian". There are just too many old names to put there. And above all the name "Shenyang" is the most well known. Besides Manchu is a defunct language. Anyway, these old names are all highlighted in the history section, there is no need to repeated these outdated names in the article. Zhang Qiang 15:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not suggesting that we put all historical names for Shenyang, let's be reasonable. Mukden is a well-known name, which has been used for decades. And in Wikipedia, putting multiple names of cities is not something unheard of, look at İzmir for instance. If you argue that we should not burden the head of this article with multilple names, where is the need for the name in simplified and traditional Chinese characters as well as pinyin? All you need to do is to look in the upper right corner or click on the 中文 link to Chinese Wikipedia.

Furthermore, Manchu is not "defunct", where did you get that from?--Niohe 16:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Another example of a multiple language heading is Gdańsk, which was object of a heated dispute not long ago. You can draw your own conclusions.--Niohe 16:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, it seems that the discussion has ended. Unless I hear anything soon, I will add the Manchu name(s) of Shenyang to the head of this article. Hope it can stay that way.--Niohe 20:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Mukden is only known in English when it comes to history. Since there are too many old names. It is better not to list them all. Snle 16:48, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I favor mention of both Mukden and Fengtian in the header due to the historical importance of these names. The article will lose nothing, and it does not matter that these names are repeated again in the History sub-section. MChew 17:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Snle, could you please engage with the arguments I have presented before you revert? And Mukden is known in several other languages, in case you are concerned.

I agree with MChew that there is a case for including Fengtian as well. --Niohe 18:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I am going to leave this as it is for the time being. On second thought, it might not be a good idea to have Fengtian listed as a name of Shenyang. Strictly speaking, it is not the name of the city, but of the prefecture around Shenyang and there is already a disambiguation page for this. I'll wait for others to contribute on this before I make any changes.--Niohe 21:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Mukden is used in English only when people are talking about Mukden Incident or Battle of Mukden. It is very rare to be used otherwise. There is no need to add Mukden to the head of the article. Zhang Qiang 14:55, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

No, you are wrong. The name Mukden was widely used in the English language press prior to 1949. Just look at this map.--Niohe 16:33, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, the words you want add are nonstandard outdated words. It is better keep them in the history section. Zhang Qiang 17:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually by the standards you established on Talk:Dalian, Mukden is a standard name in the English language. Just look in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, which you quoted yourself.--Niohe

20:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, did you note that the Merriam-Webster referred to Shenyang as a city in Manchuria aka Northeast China?--Niohe 20:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no main entry for Mukden in the dictionary. It is definitely misleading information to have it on the head of the article. Nobody knowns what the hell Mukden is. Zhang Qiang 20:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, so now we shouldn't use Merriam-Webster anymore? I beg your pardon. Anyway, I thought that abn encyclopedia is a place where you find more information about things, not a soapbox for whatever government that happens to rule in Northeast China. If Japan still ruled over Northeast China, I would argue for the inclusion of Shenyang. By the way, you still haven't responded to the evidence I have presented. And spare me from expletives.--Niohe 20:19, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

You should also notice that the dictionary define Manchuria as region NE China S of the Amur including Heilongjiang, Jilin, & Liaoning provinces & part of Inner Mongolia. Not just the 3 provinces. Zhang Qiang 20:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

My argument is not resting on Merriam-Webster, so you're free to make your own interpretations. It's just too bad that you only accept that dictionary when it supports your argument.--Niohe 20:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

As you pointed out yourself, Mukden is used only before 1949. It is outdated and there is no main entry for it in the dictionary. Some mentioning in the history section is enough. 20:23, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

"Only before 1949"? Look at this map.--Niohe 20:28, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

As you can see the map was originally made by the Japanese in the 1930s. It is nonstandard and outdated. Some mentioning at the history section is enough. Zhang Qiang 20:37, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

It is clearly pointless to argue with you. Unless this has been done already, I will report you for violation of the WP:3RR.--Niohe 21:47, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what Niohe is trying to do here. But Mukden is definitely an offensive word in China. Snle 16:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Please come with supporting evidence when you make claims. It is very difficult to reach a consensus when you make blanket statements like that.

On a more serious note, I am starting to suspect that you are a sock puppet of User:Zhang Qiang.--Niohe 17:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical names

I've directed the discussion towards Talk:Dalian#Historical names—please discuss there. —Khoikhoi 17:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 九•一八事变

Since Mukden Incident is officially classified by the Chinese government as the shame of the nation. I consider it vandalism for someone to add Mukden to the heading of this article, because this word is already mentioned in the history section. User:九·一八事变 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 918 (talk • contribs) 20:00, 1 October 2006.

I somehow fail to see the relevance of the comment above. Besides, it is obvious that this is the sock puppet of Zhang Qiang/Snle.--Niohe 20:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no such rule that says it is a must to put nonstandard, outdated names on the heading either. Since there are people offended by your addition, it is better not to list them on the top of the article. People only need to know these words, when it comes to history. So some indication in the history section will do it. 918 21:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Ummm, yes there is, I direct you to: Wikipedia:Redirect#What_needs_to_be_done_on_pages_that_are_targets_of_redirects.3F and Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Principle_of_least_astonishment. When a user clicks through Mukden and Shenyang shows up, you better tell the user in the 1st paragraph why that happened. The path of quickest information is that pursued, by putting the former names in parantheses. I only only repeat myself: this is common pratice on Wikipedia. —Khoikhoi 21:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Mukden is outdated nonstandard English. What kind of a fool will type Mukden in Wikipedia. People only search for Shenyang. 918 21:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Apparently you know better than most people what is being typed into Wikipedia. Are you privy to any special source of information?--Niohe 21:35, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I just typed Mukden into Google, excluding all hits with "incident" or "battle", and I got 127,000 hits. There are a lot of fools out there. Perhaps you should talk to the people working on Google instead of disrupting Wikipedia.--Niohe 21:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't buy your number. I did a similar search. Most of the results concerns with the incidents. Others deal with encyclopedia type definition. Most people are actually clever than you. 918 21:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Here you go: 127,000 for "mukden" -incident -battle. The fact that there was an event called the Mukden Incident (not the "Shenyang Incident") is even more of a reason to have the Manchu name at the top. Also, please remain civil. —Khoikhoi 22:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

BTW, why don't we use the authoritative Encyclopædia Britannica as an example?

Shen-yang: formerly Mukden, Pinyin Shenyang — capital of Liaoning sheng (province), China, and the largest city in the Northeast (formerly Manchuria). It is one of China's greatest industrial centres.

I don't see Britannica erasing historical names from city articles because they are Chinese cities today. —Khoikhoi 22:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

918:

"Mukden" is and has always been the Manchu name for Shenyang. Moreover it is widely used in older English sources, not just those related to the Second Sino-Japanese War. It has not become "offensive" because one historical event is named after it. -- ran (talk) 23:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree completely with User:Ran MChew 08:35, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The example you use is a bad example. Most time, Shenyang is just enough. As for Wikipedia, the thing you really need to do is to put (now Shenyang) next to Mukden whenever it is used, instead of leaving the readers lost there, wondering what Mukden really is. Zhang Qiang 15:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

What example? You're the one who brought up the example of the Mukden Incident and insisted that the name "Mukden" is offensive because it is linked to the Mukden Incident. Like I said, Mukden is simply an older name for Shenyang and is not specifically linked to the Second Sino-Japanese War.

Avoiding confusion is precisely the reason that the article "Shenyang" has "Mukden" as an alternate name right at the top. Also, Mukden is already a link to Shenyang. -- ran (talk) 18:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)