Talk:Shaolin-Do
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Perhaps some sources are needed? 67.162.133.212 06:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC) I have no problem with people questioning the lineage, the story is almost too good to be true. But Wikipedia supports a neutral point of view, and the use of "bull shit" is not a neutral point of view. Nor is it complimentary of the author who wrote it. Cite sources in your rhetoric.
Comment: And before you ask someone to prove that it is, please prove that it isn't...
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[edit] Destruction of the Fukien Temple
Also, while the Temple was destroyed on several occasions, the most recent destruction occurred in 1927. This can be found on a number of websites, but to cite some sites not associated with Shaolin-Do: xX
"In the 18th century the original Shaolin temple was burned down. Legend has it that five monks escaped and went on to establish the Shaolin temple in Fukien Province." http://www.ussd.com/lineagebegin.asp
"Fukien served as the "headquarters" during times when Honan was either destroyed or under threat. ...the temple was burned during the Boxer Rebellion, and its remains were rediscovered in the early 1980s." http://www.nychinatown.com/shaolin_temples.htm
"Shaolin's influence and power was still feared and forbidden, which led to another burning in 1927 AD, during Chiang Kai Check's reign. " http://www.taijichuan.co.uk/
"As with the previous times, Shaolin influence, power and Kung Fu was stilled feared and forbidden. This possibly led to the 3rd Burning of Shaolin in 1927 AD during Chiang Kai Check’s reign." http://www.americankungfuacademy.com/history/history_01.htm
Finally, I should point out that I majored in Chinese History and Asian Religions. I went on to graduate school where I did some further studies into Buddhist influence on Christianity. Three things I know from my studies:
1) The picture used on Shaolin-Do websites appears in several of the books I read. Who he was, I don't know. But I was very familiar with the picture before seeing any Shaolin-Do websites. 2) The legend of a Dog Monk and Shaolin was one I had heard prior to ever hearing of Shaolin Do. When he lived, I can't say. But I was familiar with the story years ago. 3) The story of Su Kong didn't phase me as questionable, but rather the fact that I had stumbled across a lineage that traced it's origins to that character. To me it would be like stumbling across a political group that said, "We have a verbal history tracing our lineage back to George Washington." Does that make it untrue, no, but it did raise some doubts in my mind.
Balloonman 03:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Masters Bob Green and Eric Smith
Who ever keeps claiming that Senior Master's Bob Green and Eric Smith are senior students to Elder Master's Sharon and David Soard and Gary Mullins, please remember that seniority in martial arts is not a subject of tenure, but rather rank. The Soards and Gary Mullins are Eight Degree Black Belts, while Senior Master's are seventh degree black belts. As such the eight degree black belts are senior to seventh degree blacks.
Edit: I beg to differ. Seniority refers to time. And statements such as: These are his most senior students, Together they are the second most senior students in the art, is the fourth most senior student in the Shaolin-Do system are outright false. I respect their rank and time commitment, but they will never be 'more senior' than Masters Bob Green and Eric Smith. The updated text does no disservice to any of the mentioned people and should remain.
=Er, when lining up, based on seniority, who would be front row right? Elder Master's Leonard, Soards, and Mullins. The Senior Master's would be to the left. When referring to Senior Blackbelts, who are you referring to the first black who has been in the art for ten years or the 2 and above blacks who were just promoted? When the instructor calls for senior students, is s/he calling for the people who have studied the longest? The permanent white belt? No, s/he is calling for the students with the highest rank. When asking for a Senior Black Belt panel, are you asking for time or rank? When referring to seniority, seniority it based upon rank not tenure. This is the norm in every martial art I've encountered, including those under Grandmaster The! Again, this is no disrespect to any Master, but when listing the most senior students, those are the 4 Elder Master's. Seniority is only measured by time in like classes/categories--rank is the first determinant of seniority. Elder Master Leonard is technically senior to the Soards/Mullins as a result of his being promoted first. Balloonman 05:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps the term "highest-ranking" could replace "most senior" where appropriate. --Ginkgo100 talk · e@ 13:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Highest ranking would be accurate and acceptable to all parties.
Comment: Rank denotes most senior. No other way about it. It doesn't matter when someone starts the art. What matters is when one advances. It should say something about the fact that someone has advanced passed a student who started before them: capability, continued effort, unbroken training time, ability to absorb of knowledge. How silly to think that because someone started before another but then took a hiatus (or stopped advancing for whatever reason) that they should still outrank a higher belt. "Time" is subjective. And most people don't realize that "10 years in the art" might include nine years sitting at home on the couch with potato chips. Elder Master Leonard (although stopped training very briefly due to a condition -- but the short time off is not even worth mentioning) and Elder Masters Soard have never taken a "hiatus!" They are correctly and appropriately listed with seniority...
From Merriam-Webster website; m-w.com;
Senior 2 a : a person with higher standing or rank ...
Hmm... i agree, remember that people advance at their own pace, just like when we were in white belt there were some who advanced faster than others and although you may have been there longer, the fact remains the same, a white belt does not out rank a yellow belt.
[edit] Definition of "Grandmaster"
There is only one problem I have with the page. A "grandmaster" is simply someone who has trained other students until they, the student, became a master. In most other martial arts there is more than one grandmaster and it doesn't make sense when it is stated that it is not publicly known which Elder Master would succeed Sin The when none would be deserving of the title without having completed this particular task. Even Sin The himself wouldn't have been a grandmaster until Bill Leonard was promoted to Master unless he had trained other masters in Indonesia(maybe his estranged brother Hiang aka Shawn?).
Now, mind you, I have been a family friend of the The's since 1975 and have been involved with the martial arts since then as well but this is something that doesn't fit in with the standard terminology and needs to be addressed. I'm sure that it could have something to do with the lineage but this does need to be brought to light.
Comment: A "grandmaster" can be defined in many ways. The way used in Shao-Lin is to identify the leader, overseer, and knowledge holder of the Shao-Lin art who is responsible for passing ALL the knowledge on to the next generation.
[edit] Questionable Lineage
There is some controversy in Chinese Martial Arts circles about whether Shaolin-Do is actually derived from the Shaolin temple or not. In fact, pretty much the only sources referring to the Shaolin-Do lineage are from Shaolin-Do itself. This article does not mention this at all.
Also the section on the "The Use of the Gi" is incorrect, the Shaolin Temple did use V-neck type robes but these are different from Japanese Gi, and they have never used different colored belts for rankings, they only used sashes to hold their robes closed, and they are generally yellow or black (sometimes other colors are used), with no ranking attached to them.
Also, it is incorrect to refer to Sin The as a "Shao-Lin" Grandmaster, and in "The Future of the Art" to refer to his successor as the head of the "Shao-Lin art" so I added the "Do" for correctness.
Evilscholar 22:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
